UK's first full day without coal generating electricity.

[APOLLO]

I think the story on this thread is not so much about energy as about the changes in the employment market and society. There is no such thing as a job for life, any prospective employer or other person who tries to pretend there is is either lying or wilfully ignorant of the changes we've seen in society. As has been stated, through life learning and change is now the norm if people don't want to be left behind and one of the most important skills people can have is an ability to learn. That is both a threat and an opportunity, it is clearly a threat in that many have lost their jobs and feel threatened. However if you accept the changes (and King Canute and the tide springs to mind) then you can use it to your advantage and develop your career on an ongoing basis. I don't think many younger people even want a job for life, I must admit I'd hate to do the same job for life.

 

No - the story on this thread is the UK's energy supply. We are an energy consuming society. not just us, the whole world. Energy to civilisation is akin to the blood in our veins - if it stops flowing we die.

 

As to job for life - I had one. I started my excellent five year gas engineering apprenticeship with the North Western Gas Board back in 1969, retiring in 2009. Although I "moved around" various posts and locations, all in the North West, I was always involved in the planning / laying / gas emergency of the gas distribution network. Fantastic job, wonderful people to work with - at all levels, even after privatisation in 1986. The rot however set in when it became National Grid around 2002 - our nickname was "Down the grid".

 

Yes things change, and rarely for the better these days. No more jobs for life, not even in the gas industry. Corporate greed has seen to that. I do however share your feelings regarding young people and the changing world we live in today. Again I have no answers to this - Life is fast becoming a rat race - especially and unfortunately for our young.

 

Brit15

Edited April 22, 2017 by APOLLO

[jonny777]

While I agree with much of this thread, I do not believe that the oft attempted ''nightmare scenario' so beloved of the Mail and Express, would lead to a peak demand. A freezing cold evening with no wind is likely to result in lower demand than one with a strong wind.

 

Thus, the generating capacity would be increased by the wind component; and remember the 'spike' due to evening cooking is very short-lived and could be coped with by pumped storage.

[jjb1970]

The other aspect that the general media tend to ignore is pull back arrangements and uninterruptible supplies to protect the grid. The transition to low carbon energy was never going to be pain free and there will be bumps on the way but I see little alternative and we have to reduce our environmental impact.

[APOLLO]

Headline news on BBC this morning.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39675418

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

While I agree with much of this thread, I do not believe that the oft attempted ''nightmare scenario' so beloved of the Mail and Express, would lead to a peak demand. A freezing cold evening with no wind is likely to result in lower demand than one with a strong wind.

 

Thus, the generating capacity would be increased by the wind component; and remember the 'spike' due to evening cooking is very short-lived and could be coped with by pumped storage.

 

Jonny, I,ve spent many, many hours "out there" the trying to sort out gas pressure related problems on cold, cold winters nights so customers could heat their homes and cook their tea. Peak demand happens daily, every day of the year. in fact there are two peaks, breakfast (approx 7am to 9am) and the larger, longer peak (4.30pm to 7.30pm). Of course these times vary, very much according to the weather. 

 

I've not worked in, but have visited the gas grid control when it was a regional one in Altrincham, Manchester. (It's now a national one at Hinckley).For a grid controller (gas or electricity) it's ALL about peak demand. They get half hourly weather forecasts from the Met office, and also short and long range weather forecasts. Their primary job (both gas and electric) is to balance supply and demand, both current and forecast, when to call on stored gas (gas holders, LNG storage) etc etc. They are very busy indeed at tea time !!

 

As to electricity storage, pumped storage indeed does work but is a tiny amount even at full flow. Theres one in North Wales and I think a couple in Scotland - certainly no replacement for the likes of Fiddlers Ferry -. Pumped storage is a help but not a replacement. Wind power only works when it's windy - not when the air is still - and that happens when areas of high atmospheric pressure develop, in winter that means sub zero temperatures.

 

By the way, Gas mains are planned for a 1 in 20 winter. That is to say the size of a gas main is determined by the maximum flow (load) that would be required during the coldest (thus maximum demand) night recorded during the last 20 years. Taken into consideration is diversity - the fact that not all consumers would be using 100% of their appliances. Complex maths was involved I never needed to understand as we had "diversity tables" used when planning. It became computerised just before I left.

 

Brit15

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If we all went back to clockwork for powering our model locos, would that help the national shortfall?

 

PS Just wondering if the "we can cope without coal" headlines is more a political signal than a specific supply one.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[APOLLO]

PS Just wondering if the "we can cope without coal" headlines is more a political signal than a specific supply one.

 

Bit of both. A very "green" statement, and easy to do now, mid april, when the last of the very cold winter is behind us.

 

It will be interesting come November / December. "Light the boilers up boys !!!!!"

 

Brit15

[duncan]

Also wind power does not work when it is TOO windy, which is a fair percentage of the time 

[jonny777]

Jonny, I,ve spent many, many hours "out there" the trying to sort out gas pressure related problems on cold, cold winters nights so customers could heat their homes and cook their tea. Peak demand happens daily, every day of the year. in fact there are two peaks, breakfast (approx 7am to 9am) and the larger, longer peak (4.30pm to 7.30pm). Of course these times vary, very much according to the weather. 

 

I've not worked in, but have visited the gas grid control when it was a regional one in Altrincham, Manchester. (It's now a national one at Hinckley).For a grid controller (gas or electricity) it's ALL about peak demand. They get half hourly weather forecasts from the Met office, and also short and long range weather forecasts. Their primary job (both gas and electric) is to balance supply and demand, both current and forecast, when to call on stored gas (gas holders, LNG storage) etc etc. They are very busy indeed at tea time !!

 

As to electricity storage, pumped storage indeed does work but is a tiny amount even at full flow. Theres one in North Wales and I think a couple in Scotland - certainly no replacement for the likes of Fiddlers Ferry -. Pumped storage is a help but not a replacement. Wind power only works when it's windy - not when the air is still - and that happens when areas of high atmospheric pressure develop, in winter that means sub zero temperatures.

 

By the way, Gas mains are planned for a 1 in 20 winter. That is to say the size of a gas main is determined by the maximum flow (load) that would be required during the coldest (thus maximum demand) night recorded during the last 20 years. Taken into consideration is diversity - the fact that not all consumers would be using 100% of their appliances. Complex maths was involved I never needed to understand as we had "diversity tables" used when planning. It became computerised just before I left.

 

Brit15

 

Yes, I am aware of these points; having provided the electricity and gas industry with weather forecasts for many decades. I never put forward the idea of pumped  storage as a replacement, just as an emergency backup for peak demand.

 

I was told many times by grid control that the biggest spike in demand did not come on a cold and frosty winters' evening, but during daylight with the onset of snow. This was assumed to be part of the British psyche; see it snowing outside and the immediate reaction is to turn up the heating.

[30801]

It will be interesting come November / December. "Light the boilers up boys !!!!!"

 

What of it?

Not burning coal all summer would be well worth it.

 

Whatever happened to now coke addicted Germany complaining that all the acid rain caused by our coal power was damaging the Black Forest?

[jjb1970]

Germany dug a giant hole for themselves as a result of their kneejerk reaction to the Fukushima disaster. By phasing out nuclear they didn't have a lot of alternatives other than new coal, they're already talking about how quickly they can get rid of these new plants. In some ways I find it re-assuring to know that our country is not unique in making some stupid political decisions.

[Ian J.]

Thinking of Germany's decision, there is so much resistance to nuclear, seemingly based on the vulnerable way it's been implemented to date (primarily as a source of material for weapons, in order to get funding). If there was a concerted effort to design a nuclear system that was purely for civilian purposes, I believe we could come up with something viable, affordable and far safer and far less polluting with waste. I'm thinking of the likes of thorium burners, WAMSRs, etc. Also, they would be easier to build and smaller therefore more of them, meaning less reliance on a few behemoths.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Ian J.

[jonny777]

Germany dug a giant hole for themselves as a result of their kneejerk reaction to the Fukushima disaster. By phasing out nuclear they didn't have a lot of alternatives other than new coal, they're already talking about how quickly they can get rid of these new plants. In some ways I find it re-assuring to know that our country is not unique in making some stupid political decisions.

 

One of our stupid decisions was the siting of nuclear power stations at Dungeness.

 

For half a century, lorries have had to move 30,000 cubic metres of shingle per year, back to the Camber side of the complex because a planning 'genius' did not understand the patterns of erosion going on there.

[tender]

I didn't think you could turn coal fired power stations on and off that quick. They might have not generated any electricity for 24 hrs but I wouldn't mind betting the coal fires were still burning.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Just found this thread, interesting, We here in South Australia (where !!) have a SA Government policy, to rid us of the evils of coal, so they shut down our largest coal fired power station, as we have plenty of 'wind' power to provide us with plenty of (very expensive) power, Until......in October the wind blew a little to hard, and the wind turbines shut down, and a couple of Poorly built pylons fell over, what happen was a total disaster, the whole State was shut down, Adelaide, had power restored after a couple of hours, we in the country waited almost two days for power to be restored, But to make this into a absolute FARCE, we had more wind in January, and it All happened again !!!!!! and took even longer to restore the power, this time it blew a load of transformers, only a dozen or so are kept in SA, the rest had to be sourced from elsewhere, which took days to arrive. Now the Government, have promised a new Gas fired power station, and a HUGE battery!! to take the base load, so if you want to see what is 'Going' to happen in the UK, take a very close look at what happened in South Australia, off out now to buy a Bigger, Genny !!!

 

manna

[PatB]

Report on the first SA blackout mentioned above can be found here. It makes it quite clear that the nature of the generators feeding into the grid had next to nothing to do with the causes of the outage.

[PatB]

Although I haven't hunted out the formal report (if available yet) the January incident in SA was a result of the ludicrous situation that Australia has allowed to develop, whereby it is more profitable for gas producers to export their gas than to sell for domestic consumptiion in time of need. With no legislated obligation to reserve a portion of Australian gas for Australian use, it's all about the dollars. Then, when demand peaks, the gas generation capacity doesn't get used. Yes, it is a farce, but it's got nothing to do with wind power.

[Dunsignalling]

I think the story on this thread is not so much about energy as about the changes in the employment market and society. There is no such thing as a job for life, any prospective employer or other person who tries to pretend there is is either lying or wilfully ignorant of the changes we've seen in society. As has been stated, through life learning and change is now the norm if people don't want to be left behind and one of the most important skills people can have is an ability to learn. That is both a threat and an opportunity, it is clearly a threat in that many have lost their jobs and feel threatened. However if you accept the changes (and King Canute and the tide springs to mind) then you can use it to your advantage and develop your career on an ongoing basis. I don't think many younger people even want a job for life, I must admit I'd hate to do the same job for life.

And if you really want to stay employed, stay ahead of the curve and get out well before redundancy looms on the horizon.

 

The end of employment loyalty cuts both ways.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

If we all went back to clockwork for powering our model locos, would that help the national shortfall?

 

PS Just wondering if the "we can cope without coal" headlines is more a political signal than a specific supply one.

DCC won't have helped, either. The chips draw around a tenth of an amp for every loco on the track even if they are turned off.

 

John

[Ian J.]

 

Regarding lifelong training, who's going to pay for it? Decent training for anything other than the simplest of tasks takes a fair amount of time, anything from six months to four years depending on the skills being learnt. I know from bitter experience that the DWP isn't going to fund it, they just follow whatever government line is thrown at them and currently that's to shove people into any kind of customer service role, unless there is some obvious reason in the unemployed person why that won't work. Saving up for training is unthinkable for anyone whose job is on minimum wage with uncertain hours. Even if you earn well, can you do so for long enough? We're going to be being bounced out of jobs on a regular basis, with little time to save for anything, let alone training. There's a real need to re-think training and education beyond school/college/university in this country, and how it can be funded for lifelong learning when jobs come and go so quickly.

[jjb1970]

 

Regarding lifelong training, who's going to pay for it? Decent training for anything other than the simplest of tasks takes a fair amount of time, anything from six months to four years depending on the skills being learnt. I know from bitter experience that the DWP isn't going to fund it, they just follow whatever government line is thrown at them and currently that's to shove people into any kind of customer service role, unless there is some obvious reason in the unemployed person why that won't work. Saving up for training is unthinkable for anyone whose job is on minimum wage with uncertain hours. Even if you earn well, can you do so for long enough? We're going to be being bounced out of jobs on a regular basis, with little time to save for anything, let alone training. There's a real need to re-think training and education beyond school/college/university in this country, and how it can be funded for lifelong learning when jobs come and go so quickly.

 

That is a very valid point, and one that is not easy to answer. I think this has to be considered in terms of "can't" and "won't". There are an awful lot of people who are not financially able to self fund further or higher education, and these people need support. There are support mechanisms available and the student loan system although a loan is not repayable until you have an income and then the payments are over quite an extended time so student loan debt is not quite the same as credit card or payday loan debt. There are however plenty of people who could pay but don't want to because it'd incur a lifestyle sacrifice. That is fair enough, how we lead our lives is our own business but people in that position can't claim that they are unable to study. I worked next to a guy in an employer who was relocating from London to Southampton, he wasn't going to move (neither did I) and was suffering anxiety about his impending redundancy. I asked him if he'd considered doing some further learning and his answer was that he couldn't afford it and anyway he didn't have the time (he was single, no children). At the time I was paid the same as he was, had a mortgage and two young children and was doing a self funded masters degree, the difference was I accepted the sacrifice in disposable income and working at my studies after children went to bed rather than going to the pub or playing computer games and stuff which was how he spent his time. He really thought I was a heartless so and so when I kind of lost patience with him and told him that if he didn't value his future and was unwilling to invest anything in it then why should anybody else?

[jonny777]

I didn't think you could turn coal fired power stations on and off that quick. They might have not generated any electricity for 24 hrs but I wouldn't mind betting the coal fires were still burning.

 

I think the idea of a burning 'coal fire' with respect to present day electricity generation is somewhat misleading.

 

The pulverised coal is sprayed over very hot air and instant combustion takes place. Turn off the coal supply and combustion stops.

[kevinlms]

G'Day Gents

 off out now to buy a Bigger, Genny !!!

 

manna

Oh go on, that will fix the problem!

 

The Basslink power connection failed, leaving Tasmania at low level storage levels for hydro power, partly because of their drought, but largely because they had exported large quantities of hydro power (thus lowering the water level in dams). It was a political decision to take advantage of the future removal of the so called 'carbon tax'.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink

 

Fact is, it ended up being a poor political decision, as the fix of providing temporary power sources, ended up costing significantly more than what they sold electricity for.

 

 

Far too often in Australia, what should be technical decisions, is taken over by politicians, who end up making very poor choices.

 

The NBN is another classic example, we're ending up with a dog's breakfast of fast internet, because we allegedly don't have the resources to do the job properly. Tasmania ironically, made the correct decision and started their own fibre rollout.

[jjb1970]

I think the idea of a burning 'coal fire' with respect to present day electricity generation is somewhat misleading.

 

The pulverised coal is sprayed over very hot air and instant combustion takes place. Turn off the coal supply and combustion stops.

The problem isn't combustion of fuel, it is managing thermal stresses caused by expansion and contraction and keeping the steam headers dry. Coal plants can come on and off very quickly if the boilers are kept pressurised and the steam system hot and free of liquid. The big coalers have two shifted routinely for years to manage the morning and evening peak. However if they are properly shut down and cold it takes a lot longer to bring them on line. One of the dilemmas we face for thermal plant is that you can optimise a plant for flexibility or for efficiency but not both. The UK needs flexible plant to support renewables.

[royaloak]

As a significant % of our electricity is imported via Cross-Channel links, do we know if that electricity was all non-coal generated on Friday?

Most of it comes from France (mainly nuclear) and Holland (mainly wind), of course whether they are importing from Germany (some brown coal power stations) we cant check.

 

Just had a look and we are not using any coal but are importing the maximum from both France (small amount of coal fired energy) and Holland today.