S7 scratch building

[Caley Jim]

40 minutes ago, airnimal said:

Jim, yes it does have the heavy framing on the end door but not the cupboard doors on the side.   I need technical advice on this one. Although I have the Caledonian wagon book by Mike William's I don't quite know how the end door hoops work. I can see on the drawings that the hoops are welded to the ironwork on the door but where does the hoop go when the door is raised ?  And what does the door pivot on and what is on the door inside ?  I don't think I have ever seen a close up photograph of this feature or read about the way this works. 

The vertical washer plate on the outside , the hoop and the corresponding washer plate on the inside are all one piece, presumably forged from round bar.  The heavy transverse top beam is attached to the wagon sides, reinforced by a washer plate which extend right across and wraps round the corners.  This has two metal plates on top, corresponding to the position of the hoops.  The door swings on these, via the hoops.  The washer plate across the bottom framing extends out on either side as round 'pegs' and the door is held shut by two oval loops attached to the sides.  The pegs have a hole in them into which a pin, held on a chain, is placed to keep it shut by stopping the loops coming off the pegs. 

 

The left hand half of the two end elevations on p103 of Mike's book show the inside (top drawing) and outside (bottom drawing) arrangements. 

 

The RTR wagon you refer to had the hoop disappearing into the top of the cross beam!  How anyone thought that would work is a mystery to me!

 

HTH

 

Jim

[airnimal]

Jim, I hope I have worked out how this end door operates.  Along with your help and looking closely at the drawing, the penny has finally dropped. I hadn't realised that the top piece of wood was fixed and there was a half inch gap between the top of the door and this fixed piece of timber.  It is not very clear on both the drawing and the photographs how the door swings up on the plate attached to the top timber which from the drawing scales out at four and a half inches square. I presume that the plate that the hoops rests on has some sort of guide or groove to retain the doors position and the weight of the door helps keep its location when the wagon is discharging its load. 

 

I will have to make a new end door to now to accommodate this information to leave a small gap between the door top and this fixed timber. I think that the door was made from slightly thinner planks but was heavily braced  on the outside for strength. I have made a pair of sides and glued them on and I will make the ends and the door to match these sides. 

[ian@stenochs]

6 hours ago, airnimal said:

Jim, I hope I have worked out how this end door operates.  Along with your help and looking closely at the drawing, the penny has finally dropped. I hadn't realised that the top piece of wood was fixed and there was a half inch gap between the top of the door and this fixed piece of timber.  It is not very clear on both the drawing and the photographs how the door swings up on the plate attached to the top timber which from the drawing scales out at four and a half inches square. I presume that the plate that the hoops rests on has some sort of guide or groove to retain the doors position and the weight of the door helps keep its location when the wagon is discharging its load. 

 

I will have to make a new end door to now to accommodate this information to leave a small gap between the door top and this fixed timber. I think that the door was made from slightly thinner planks but was heavily braced  on the outside for strength. I have made a pair of sides and glued them on and I will make the ends and the door to match these sides. 

Mike,

 

Here are a couple of views which may be of use.  Both early G&SWR but these doors were pretty common in Scotland.  Note the cast ‘shoe’ under the hoop.

 

Ian.

 

[airnimal]

Ian, thank you for the photographs which makes things a lot clearer particular the top one. 

 

I have made a new door and the hoops that sit on top of it. It is not fixed in place yet but it does look like the drawing and photographs now. I have drilled a couple of holes in the top timber so that I can put a peg in to strengthen the join when i finally come to glue in on because I want a small gap under it. 

[airnimal]

I have drilled holes through the top of the door to accept some .7mm Masterclub rivets to line up and fix the hoops. When I am making an open wagon I always include some form of bend in the sides to bow the sides outwards. I keep some form of packing in until I am ready for painting because they tend to get handled a lot and picking them up by the sides usually leads to problems later. Onwards and upwards now with the rest of the detailing. 

 

Jim, I forgot to ask if you know what colour this wagon would be painted. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by airnimal
Forgot a question.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, airnimal said:

Jim, I forgot to ask if you know what colour this wagon would be painted. 

Given that the colliery was in NB territory, I would guess grey, but I'll try and find out definitely for you.  is there no indication on the drawing you have?

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

5 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Given that the colliery was in NB territory, I would guess grey, .......

Seems I might be wrong on that.

 

I posted a question on the CRA forum and the following are extracts from the only reply so far :-

I have a colour photo of Arniston 515 12t taken many years ago where the livery is (well faded) red oxide, letter white shaded black. I think this wagon is at Prestongrange.

........

..........an extract from the Pickering order book which reads:-
[ARNISTON COAL Co., Ltd. Gorebridge. Brown Oxide, white lettering with black shading. And ironwork. Some wagons without shading,
1 coat of Tar inside. 1901, 1904, 1905, 1907.

 

Will report any more responses.

 

Jim

[Dave Hunt]

Looking good as usual Mike. Where did you get the quick ratcheting bar clamp from? It looks like a really handy gismo.

 

Dave

[airnimal]

Dave, the clamps were from the middle aisle of Aldi. They always have tools and gadgets that come in handy for both the modeller and the do it yourself man. They are only available at certain times but you can see any special offers on line. Lidi also have similar products on at certain times so it's best to check every couple of weeks what's coming up. 

 

Jim, this wagon is described as being rebuilt from a dumb buffered wagon with new timbers, and on a previous page of Len Tavender's book there is a smaller 6'6" wheel base one with the same number. Both are lettered the same with the same number but surly if the smaller wagon was rebuilt to such an extent it would be a new wagon altogether.  There is no indication of colour on either drawing. The side door is very small for such a large wagon but with the end door being used for tipping this small door might not be used much.

 

The hoops and holding bracket cause me problems when I tried to make them because of there small size.

I found some small brass brackets in my bits box that looked similar but were slightly to wide. 

I tried to cut them in half to reduce the gap where the hoop sits but trying to hold everything together and solder everything square was a nightmare with my arthritic fingers.  So in the end I gave up in disgust and just used them as they came. The gap either side of the hoop is to wide by about 10 thou which does bother me. I did say standards are slipping. I don't have any idea where these came from or what there purpose was originally for but they could be parts from a sailing ship.  I help to clear a workmates uncle's workshop out about 30 years ago who was a ship modeller and he gave allsorts of bits that I never disposed of. 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, airnimal said:

Jim, this wagon is described as being rebuilt from a dumb buffered wagon with new timbers, and on a previous page of Len Tavender's book there is a smaller 6'6" wheel base one with the same number. Both are lettered the same with the same number but surly if the smaller wagon was rebuilt to such an extent it would be a new wagon altogether.  There is no indication of colour on either drawing. The side door is very small for such a large wagon but with the end door being used for tipping this small door might not be used much.

That sounds like one of the early 6 or 7 ton 'bogies' with outside framing.  It was probably replaced by an 8T dumb buffered wagon as a renewal, taking the same number, and this in turn was converted to spring buffered when dumb buffers were outlawed.

 

Had another go at scanning and uploading the photo I have, but still get a 'problem up loading this file' message!  ☹️

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

Following some advice from @AY Mod, I've rescanned the photo as a .png and been able to upload that.

 

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

Following some advice from @AY Mod, I've rescanned the photo as a .png and been able to upload that.

 

I dare say it's just my Claytonesque predjudice but those old Scottish coal bogies don't just look as if they came out of the Ark but as if they were made from its remains by Noah's sons. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I dare say it's just my Claytonesque predjudice but those old Scottish coal bogies don't just look as if they came out of the Ark but as if they were made from its remains by Noah's sons. 

I have a few of them!

 

There's another five where they came from!🙂  (And a few more to build)

 

Jim

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

don't just look as if they came out of the Ark but as if they were made from its remains by Noah's sons. 

 

Are you saying Noah & Co. were very advanced, and invented the railway a couple of thousands of years ahead of the rest of the world? Finding the remains of a tramway up Mount Ararat might be the proof we need not only of ultra-early railways but the whole story of the Deluge!

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

Are you saying Noah & Co. were very advanced, and invented the railway a couple of thousands of years ahead of the rest of the world? Finding the remains of a tramway up Mount Ararat might be the proof we need not only of ultra-early railways but the whole story of the Deluge!

 

You don't get a major construction project like the Tower of Babel without some contractor or other laying out a temporary tramway.

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

You don't get a major construction project like the Tower of Babel without some contractor or other laying out a temporary tramway with incoming goods delivered in MR D299s.

 

Corrected it for you... 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

Corrected it for you... 

 

Now mentioning such ultra-modern wagons in the same breath as these ancient Scottish tumbrils is a bit much!

Edited December 2, 2023 by Compound2632

[airnimal]

Jim, thank you for the photograph of the small Arniston wagon. This is precisely the wagon drawn in Len Tavender coal trade wagon book. He obviously used this photograph to make his drawing. I find these small wagons have so much character I would love to models some of these but how do I account for  them this far south of the border. I know I am modelling the larger wagon from the same company but the larger wagon would have a bit more chance of going a bit further from is home territory.  That's my excuse anyway. 

 

I have not done a lot today because we have been out with my daughter and her husband taking 2 of our grandsons on the polar express on the Churnet Valley railway. This Santa special was packed out with everyone on board dressed in pyjamas and dressing gowns. The weather even played it's part because it snowed for the whole trip but it was a bit tricky driving both there and back. 

Edited February 18 by airnimal

[Caley Jim]

Mike Williams has replied stating that he and Ed McKenna, who have been researching traders wagons, have nothing to add.  In that case I would go with red oxide, black ironwork and white lettering.  Whether you shade it or not is your choice.  If anyone comes along and says you are wrong, the appropriate response is, as always, 'prove it'!

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, Mike, and I can't make out what you've done from the photos, but the side cupboard doors were usually double skinned, with one layer of planks vertical and the other horizontal, which layer was which depended on the builder, e.g. the CR built them with the outer layer horizontal, but private builder often had that layer vertical.

 

Jim

[airnimal]

Jim, I hope I have modelled it correct , but the wagon I am making is from the second drawing in book without cupboard doors. Both doors are seen here. This larger wagon has normal side doors even though they are on the small side. 

Edited December 3, 2023 by airnimal

[Caley Jim]

Sorry, Mike.  I should have been paying attention😒!

 

Jim

[airnimal]

Jim, you had me doubting my own sanity there. 

 

I have done a very small amount because of doing other things. But I have put the end stanchions on and the crown plates as well. It is a very slow process this time of the year with all the festive stuff to attend to. 

Looking forward to the Manchester show at the weekend. I have being going for over 60 years now and haven't missed one since I was 8 years old. It was probably here that I got my love of pre-grouping railways from. There were people there who still remembered the pre-grouping period because it had only gone some 30 years before. Happy days in the Corn Exchange watching Presson and other such delights. 

[airnimal]

Progress is very slow at present with just a bit of work done on the door catches and other ironwork on the solebar's.  Just the interior details and all the nuts and bolts to add.  JUST the nuts and bolts adds up to something like 260 individual holes drilled to accept the Masterclub nuts of different sizes.

[magmouse]

Looking great as always, Mike. The door catches are excellent, and tiny even in 7mm scale. Do you have a technique for drilling the holes for the nuts in a straight line, or is it simply a matter of accurate manual work?

 

Nick.