Penmaenpool (Llyn Penmaen)

[Focalplane]

I believe the Orion kits can also be provided through Ragstone Models.

I'm not sure if they have a stall at Telford but their web address is:       http://www.ragstonemodels.co.uk/index.html

 

Regards

Jinty

 

Jinty

 

I will be contacting them very soon.  I have ordered a copy of Harris' Great Western Coaches from the "South American River" company and it should be delivered before I go to Telford.  So I will be in a better position to know would be an appropriate coach or two for the through "express" services.  My local services already have Collett "B" Sets and a soon to be delivered autocoach.

 

I just checked and Ragstone will have a presence at Telford - Stand 65.

 

September 2nd is going to be a busy day!

 

Many thanks.

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

Penmaenpool shed water supply

 

There was no water crane at Penmaenpool, all the photos show that it never existed, even when trains were running.  But there was a water tank adjacent to the shed.  The structure looks small to service a steam locomotive, so it was probably installed as a water supply for cleaning out the locos, supplying the toilet block and so on.  A larger pipe brought water in from the embankment behind.  An A frame metal support can be seen supporting this pipe.  Water was fed across to the shed wall through a smaller diameter pipe which certainly seems too small for rapid filling of a loco or tender.

 

There was also another smaller diameter pipe which appears to have supplied the toilets.  All five photos I have also show what is probably a ladder leaning against the side of the tank (between tank and shed wall); but only one photo is angled to show that it is a ladder with rungs.  The iron tank is supported on two concrete columns.  There is no evidence of any cover to the tank.

 

I am building a temporary mock up of the tank out of plain Plastikard.  The tank will be painted dark brown while the concrete supports will be painted a dirty concrete colour with texture in the form of fine sand added to the paint.  The supports may stay in place but I think that eventually the tank would be better made out of brass sheeting, etc.

 

From an operating point of view, the lack of watering facilities at a (small) engine shed may seem unusual, but this example is not unique.  Elsewhere on the GWR, Shipston on Stour had a small shed and but apparently the water well dug for the shed proved to have poor quality water so the branch engine was expected to always top up water at Moreton-in-Marsh.

 

I would not think that the water supply at Penmaenpool would have been of poor quality, but there were watering facilities at Dolgelley, though only a parachute design, probably not much bigger than the tank at Penmaenpool.  The local service (tank engine usually) would require topping up at Dolgelley at the end of the day, while the last main line locomotive of the day (from Ruabon or beyond) would take on water at Barmouth before running back to Penmaenpool.  This locomotive would most probably have been turned at Barmouth Junction on its way back to Barmouth for the first morning departure to Ruabon.  (Note, I have yet to see a water tank or crane in photos of Barmouth but surely there was one?)

 

Here is the almost completed Plastikard mockup:

 

[daifly]

It's an awful photo but the rear says it's Barmouth. That looks suspiciously like a water crane behind!

Dave

[daifly]

Barmouth also had a very substantial water tank as seen in the left background.

Dave

[Focalplane]

Dave

 

I knew there had to be a tank somewhere but all mine only show the main line and excursion platform.  That tank is certainly elusive!  But the water crane isn't, so I will take another look for it now I know it's on the old excursion platform, which basically was used by the local service to Dolgelley.

 

Thanks for the two photos, most useful, as always!

 

Paul

[phil_sutters]

Anymore whence this came?

I am sorry it has taken me so long to catch up with this enquiry. I have uploaded a fair number of Dad's photos and some of mine to albums in my gallery here at   http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/member/14351-phil-sutters/  They are not particularly well categorized. I have tended to upload a batch in response to an enquiry or a thread that I have taken an interest in.

A more comprehensive collection of our photos is on the ipernity photo sharing site, which I belong to and where there are group galleries, some of which I started. You can see my railways section at http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/album/538609 and if you open up an individual photo on the right hand side, go to 'See also....' and you will be able to access any groups the photo has been added to. Some firewalls have been known to object to ipernity, although the incompatibility issues may now have been sorted out. I haven't uploaded anything there recently, as the site has been the subject of a membership crowdfunded buy-out and its future is still being worked through.

Thanks for your interest. Were he still around, Dad would be pleased at the number of enquiries and positive comments his photos have generated.

Phil

Edited August 23, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Focalplane]

Module 1 structures status report photo on the workbench topic.

[Focalplane]

Module 1 Planning

 

I am winding down construction of buildings and rolling stock because of my imminent departure to England for Telford next Saturday.  So to pass the time and also prepare for meeting various suppliers at Telford I thought it would be a good idea to annotate this print:

 

 

It doesn't show everything that will fit into the first module, but it does highlight several useful points:

 

1.  The photo represents the era being modelled.  Note that the embankments around the shed and main line are clear of trees and all but a few shrubs.  This is very different from post-closure photos that tend to be used to better define individual buildings.  Nature was beginning to take over by 1970.  Today the area is much more mature than seen above, though it is also landscaped where there are residences.  The present is really not very helpful for scenic work.

 

2.  By combining this photo with others the relative locations of the various structures can be ascertained with a good degree of confidence.  The various structures to the south of the engine shed are in the following sequence from east to west:

 

Office/Mess - Coal Stage - Latrine - Water Tank - Additional Small Shed*

 

3.  The layout of the signals is nicely illustrated.  Some have commented that the UP home signal doesn't look right, in fact I have read somewhere that it is supposed to be bi-directional.  I am no expert but that doesn't make sense to me.

 

4.  The pile of ash between the shed roads.  There were inspection pits inside the shed but no ash disposal pit as such.  Penmaenpool was a sub-shed of 84J, Croes Newydd at Wrexham.  Presumably any major maintenance work would have been undertaken there, requiring a second locomotive to be available.  This is a perfect excuse to have both a 74XX and a 14XX, the latter being the stand by.

 

*Additional Small Shed.  It is just visible but not labelled on the photo.  This could be where the oil was stored.  It is a simple pent roofed building but is never very clear on various photos.  I might just use an RTR building for this.

 

Edit on September 12, 2017 - A photo on display at the George Hotel lobby shows that there were short ash pits on both shed roads with a pile of ash between them.  The ash pits were outside the shed.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Focalplane

[Focalplane]

While researching the scenic side of Penmaenpool yesterday I searched for "drone video Penmaenpool" and came up with a high definition overflight of the toll bridge.  Professionally made the quality is superb.  But what I was hoping for was a view of the waterfront where the railway used to be, to get a feel for the backdrop - should it be nearby forest or long range vista of Cadair Idris, or both?  Unfortunately such a view would be looking south and into the sun and the drone was steered away from that direction.  But with the proliferation of commercial drone companies, I would think these videos could be quite useful.  I know someone on the Warwickshire Gloucestershire Railway has uploaded drone videos of the trains running.  Not quite what I would be looking for, but still useful for modern scenic views.

[phil_sutters]

3.  The layout of the signals is nicely illustrated.  Some have commented that the UP home signal doesn't look right, in fact I have read somewhere that it is supposed to be bi-directional.  I am no expert but that doesn't make sense to me.

 

I think that it looks unusual, because it has a quadrant shaped sighting board below the arm. They were used if, from the loco crew view point the background made the arm's position difficult to read, either because of lighting or structures. The arm would fall in front of the white painted board.

This is a similar, although less neat, version, just to the east of Newhaven Harbour.

 

 

 

[Focalplane]

Phil

 

Thanks for your comment. What is interesting to me is that, from the camera's position, the quadrant doesn't hide the reverse side of the home signal when it is in the stop position but would hide it when in the go position. Given that the westbound home signal is a couple of 100 meters this side and they should be interlocked, why would this be designed that way or was it simply the way the GWR did things?

 

Why someone would think the signal was bidirectional also has me perplexed!

 

By the way, I have been surfing your photo sharing site. Excellent!

 

Paul

[coachmann]

While researching the scenic side of Penmaenpool yesterday I searched for "drone video Penmaenpool" and came up with a high definition overflight of the toll bridge.  Professionally made the quality is superb.  But what I was hoping for was a view of the waterfront where the railway used to be, to get a feel for the backdrop - should it be nearby forest or long range vista of Cadair Idris, or both?  Unfortunately such a view would be looking south and into the sun and the drone was steered away from that direction.  But with the proliferation of commercial drone companies, I would think these videos could be quite useful.  I know someone on the Warwickshire Gloucestershire Railway has uploaded drone videos of the trains running.  Not quite what I would be looking for, but still useful for modern scenic views.

Drone movies are indeed very useful Paul. I used one discovered on YouTube to position various details when building the approach road to Carrog.  Screen shots were printed out and taken to the railway shed.

[Andy Y]

what I was hoping for was a view of the waterfront where the railway used to be, to get a feel for the backdrop - should it be nearby forest or long range vista of Cadair Idris, or both?  Unfortunately such a view would be looking south and into the sun and the drone was steered away from that direction.

 

[Focalplane]

Andy

 

What a pleasant surprise at 6 am on a Sunday morning! Thank you so much for making this available and with such good background music to go with the beautiful scenery!

 

I now know how to design the backdrop - no Cadair Idris - and the need to make a few trees! It is also very obvious that there is going to have to be significant shrinkage along the stretch between platforms and foreman's cottage, always a concern particulatly in Gauge O. I may have to focus on the railway elements and omit the hotel and space between hotel and engine shed altogether. Which was always a reason for the modular approach. The hotel module could be an extra if time and space allow.

 

I am hoping to visit Penmaenpool after Telford to do some detailed photgraphy of the remaining buildings.

 

Your video is very special! Thank you.

 

Paul

 

Edited to improve dreadful half awake spelling

Edited August 27, 2017 by Focalplane

[phil_sutters]

Phil

 

Thanks for your comment. What is interesting to me is that, from the camera's position, the quadrant doesn't hide the reverse side of the home signal when it is in the stop position but would hide it when in the go position. Given that the westbound home signal is a couple of 100 meters this side and they should be interlocked, why would this be designed that way or was it simply the way the GWR did things?

 

Why someone would think the signal was bidirectional also has me perplexed!

 

By the way, I have been surfing your photo sharing site. Excellent!

 

Paul

Thanks for the kind comment about my photo site.

I don't think that hiding the signal from the opposite direction was the point. It was about giving a clear view from the front. However I don't know why the board doesn't extend to the stop position. I have only found one other board in Dad's GW photos, at Oldfield Park, and that is the same. When they painted white panels on bridges, for the same purpose, they were roughly square and a bit bigger, as they were set back a bit from the signal. I am sure there will be a knowledgeable person somewhere on RMweb who can enlighten us - should they pass this way,

[Happy Hippo]

The SRS signalling diagram for Penmaenpool is here:

 

http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwu/S3279.htm

 

There is also an early locking sketch which show not only signals with arms in both direction on a single post but also two sidings in the goods yard.  The signalling layout was then the responsibility of the Cambrian railway.

 

Fast forward to the 'proper' GWR signalling diagram, and these signals have been replaced with signals on individual posts as well as the introduction of brackets.

 

The second siding in the goods yard has disappeared!

 

The signal shown in the video appears to be a work of fiction as there was never such a combination (home and fixed distant) according to the diagram.

 

As for the sighting board, I would suggest that when the signal is on it could be slightly above the board because any sighting board behind the signal would not be seen by the crew, but the white quadrant underneath would..

 

However when off, the signal would be clearly be visible as it would then have the white quadrant above it.

 

As an aside we use white attraction marks on the ranges we run, with smaller red/blue/yellow targets.  The white draws attention to the area and then the other colours are easily picked out.

 

I would suggest that anyone driving or firing on the line would have had intimate route knowledge, so they would have a very good idea of where the signals were sited. The sighting board merely being an aid to their sighting.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Happy Hippo

[Focalplane]

Happy Hippo, i had wondered about the timing of the statement about the signal being bidirectional and, yes, it would have been a Cambrian Railway design, pre1922. For the purpose of a 1959 era model, the GWR 1936 diagram is basically the same as for 1959.

 

The decorative signal there today was brought in after the original signals had been removed. A research red herring!

 

Thanks, Paul

[Focalplane]

I will be departing for the UK this evening - by car - and today is a rest day before what should be a dry, cool night's drive to the ferry terminal.  But I am spending time doing more research.  This time it is

 

Baseboards

 

Some months ago, Furness Wagon mentioned Grainge & Hodder modular baseboard kits and I have gone back to look into their products more closely.  They appear to be cost effective and, no doubt about it, the products are quicker to assemble and have a better weight to strength ratio than if I built them myself.  So, will they work for Penmaenpool?  The short answer is "maybe yes".

 

The basic problem in using module construction will be the estuary shoreline.  This doesn't impact on Module 1, which has a cutting rather than an embankment, but further west the track base will be above the high tide surface of the estuary.  The modules are 100mm deep which represents 100/7=14 feet.

 

This means that the front of the estuary modules could have a the side frame removed and set back, with the end frames and cross members profiled to match the embankment leading down to the high tide shore.  A flat piece of timber would then be fitted at the base of the module to add strength and supply the substrate for the estuary scenery.

 

Likewise, the land behind the station rises rapidly, forming a three-dimensional part of the back scene.  This would be a simple add on to the surface of the module.  The quick sketch shows a cross section through the estuary modules:

 

 

Grainge and Hodder make a number of standard module sizes and for Gauge O they need to be the larger ones.  The 1200 x 600 mm module is not wide enough, I really need 800mm width, so the possibility would be to use two 1200 x 400 mm modules glued and screwed together making one 1200 x 800 mm module.  This is represented on the sketch above.  This should add additional strength along the estuary modules and has an extra advantage as well.

 

For possible exhibition purposes, G & H sell a 400 x 1200 mm train turntable which could be attached to the front half module.

 

Unfortunately, in Gauge O 1200mm length represents only a two coach passenger train and tender locomotive or a pick up goods.  I am hoping to run at least three, perhaps four coach trains.  Even these are prototypically short compared to the Saturday Only specials and excursions.  Which brings the whole plan back to the long shed plus garden oval/dumbbell!

 

But at least this design would keep the options open.

 

For immediate Module 1 plans I could acquire four 400 x 1200 modules, 2 comprising Module 1a, Engine Shed and Foreman's House and 2 for Module 1b, Points and Catch Point for Shed Roads.  Plus the Main Line, of course!

 

Another advantage is that G & H's address is in the Black Country so I could pick them up while in the UK.  I would call them today but I have been reminded it's a Bank Holiday.

[coachmann]

ID Backscenes - Series 201 'Forest Hills' Pack A 15" just might fit the bill for the view across the water at Penmaenpool...

Edited August 28, 2017 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

Barmouth also had a very substantial water tank as seen in the left background.IMG_0522.JPG

Dave

 

Dave

 

Another excellent photo (no. 5) in the Barmouth to Pwllheli Middleton Press book, Definitely a GWR pattern and not shown on the 1913 survey map.

 

Also there does appear (photo no.7) to be a water column at the end of the bay platform but not on the main through platforms.  So your photo in post 107 is probably correctly labelled.

 

Paul

 

Paul

[Focalplane]

I just called Grainge and Hodder to find they are in the middle of their summer shutdown and will not re-open until Monday 11th September.  A real set back to my plans.  Maybe someone at Telford will have similar modules?

[Western Star]

We have bought Elite baseboards...  a range of "standard" sizes plus option for bespoke (either sizes or construction features).  Good quality and recommended.

 

Elite has a stand at Telford, adjacent to Lightmoor Press so look at the boards and then buy a book whilst thinking about how many boards to order!

[Focalplane]

We have bought Elite baseboards...  a range of "standard" sizes plus option for bespoke (either sizes or construction features).  Good quality and recommended.

 

Elite has a stand at Telford, adjacent to Lightmoor Press so look at the boards and then buy a book whilst thinking about how many boards to order!

 

Many thanks for the suggestion, I have added Elite to my list.  It looks like their ordering policy means I will not be able buy off the shelf but I am already getting the idea that that will be the case which ever route I take.

 

Lightmoor is already on my list!  

 

Paul

[Western Star]

When talking to Eiite...  I advise you to explore the features that they can offer, sometimes those guys get carried away with their enthusiasm and forget to mention little things like...  the materials that they use for the structure...  the option to have the surface covered in sheet cork...  the option to have the entire surface sealed with two coats of sprayed acrylic varnish... the option to have board joiners fitted by them...

 

A price comparison between G&H and Elite is not a fair comparison as there is no suitable yardstick.

 

OK - I know Ian Pope well and he is a director of Elite...  still a satisfied customer because the quality of the product speaks loudly.

 

regards, Graham

Edited August 30, 2017 by Western Star

[Focalplane]

Well, the whole baseboard thing has set me back a bit, I was really hoping that I would be taking back the kits to build Module 1, but given the lead time they require that is not going to happen.  I do plan to make another trip later in the year, so there will be time to plan and order the necessary components to be delivered and then transported to France.

 

Today I measured the load space in the Peugeot 2008 and reckon that it can carry at least one 1200mm long module, probably two (and by this I mean fully landscaped modules).  Which is important news in that anything bigger would require expensive van hire, etc. across the English Channel/La Manche.  Don't ask me how expensive, most van rentals in the UK think their van will immediately disappear once it is in France.

 

So I will have other priorities in the months ahead, the first for Penmaenpool being a Modern Outline Kits 64XX which was paid for today for delivery on Saturday.  This will become 7433, a Croes Newydd pannier.  Having built the MOK 14XX I feel reasonably confident that this kit will be put together fairly quickly.  Dave Sharp, owner of MOK, was most helpful on the phone today, giving me a few pointers about plunger pickups, etc.

 

Other purchases planned include some more Parkwood Arts loco and coach storage boxes, two small ones for the 14XX and 74XX, and a six coach storage box for the beginnings of the Penmaenpool stock collection.

 

Other items for Penmaenpool include the motor, wheels, pickups and couplers for the 74XX from ABC Gears, Slaters and CPL, possible wagons and a brake van, from Tower Models and Connoisseur, plus various other bits and pieces.

 

I will also be talking to Lee Marsh about the Manor, as well as the possible addition of the Collett Goods.  These two will make my locomotive roster complete, allowing me to concentrate on the modules and scenery.  So much to do, so little time!  And none of these items include purchases for the work bench and Legge Lane.  Thank goodness Telford only comes round once a year (and I missed last year)!