For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[bingley hall]

Brilliant! Waited at that stop in Kingsley Road many times for the 110 or 111 home to Heston. Alternative was the 232 from the garage (that's probably the DMS in the 116 bay...). I loved the RFs - the trip out to Chertsey was sometimes the start of a Saturday Red Rover with mates. One day in 1973 we got at far as Dartford, much to my mother's concern! Well, we wanted to get our money's worth, we were only 12! Still got those very tickets...

 

Thanks for the memories. I was a few years ahead of you - both these tickets were back from when I was 12. And yes we ended up all over London and the outer suburbs in our quest to visit every LT red garage back then.

 

[Coppercap]

Thanks for the memories. I was a few years ahead of you - both these tickets were back from when I was 12. And yes we ended up all over London and the outer suburbs in our quest to visit every LT red garage back then.

 

Red Rover_230368.jpg

Twin Rover_040668.jpg

Funny how we keep these things, isn't it? Sadly, by the time I was 'Red Rovering', LT had dropped the Twin Rover ticket. I expect we would have attempted some extremely ambitious days out with those! We did bunk many garages too, mostly being politely escorted off the premises, sometimes not so politely! Lots of those garages are now but a memory.

[Gwiwer]

LT did away with the Twin Rover but a few years later came up with the Go As You Please tickets which could be used on underground trains within Greater London and all red buses. But not available for one day IIRC; you could get them for three or seven days or a month.

 

I made good use of Red Bus Rover tickets despite living in Sussex. One which involved some quite rural sections went something like this:

Victoria - Wanstead (10)

Wanstead - Epping Forest Wake Arms (20A)

Epping Forest - Waltham Cross (217A)

Waltham Cross - Potters Bar (242)

Potters Bar - South Mimms (298)

South Mimms - St. Albans Country Bus Garage - High Barnet (84)

High Barnet - Aldenham Works - Edgware (107)

Edgware - Cricklewood (32)

Cricklewood - Victoria (16)

 

Might have been a short hop or two in there on other routes when things didn't exactly meet up.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

I expect we would have attempted some extremely ambitious days out with those! We did bunk many garages too, mostly being politely escorted off the premises, sometimes not so politely! Lots of those garages are now but a memory.

I kept mine for many years until the need to cull for removal exceeded any reason to still have them. I even managed to keep a couple of Gibson-issue Green and Golden Rovers which required quite a length of paper containing multiple low-value tickets. The Golden Rover was five 15p tickets which was I think the highest value available on the Gibsons. By contrast a small square of yellow paper produced from an Almex machine was all that was required if bought on a Green Line coach as these could show fares up to 99p; with S, R and C obvious as fare types a Golden Rover was V2. V1 was assigned to the Green Rover which was not available on coaches.

 

I managed every garage in red territory using Red Bus Rovers though UX was a fair hike into the country well beyond where any red bus (then) ran in service. I managed every "green" garage by country buses and coaches too, including RE, DT, SJ, LH and SA also on Red Bus Rovers as they were served by such. And I managed the "grand tour" a couple of times, right around London by green bus and Green Line starting and finishing in Horsham linking to Southdown's 2 from and back to Worthing. Very ambitious but very satisfying. I have no idea, in those pre-mobile days, what I might have done had anything gone wrong and left me stranded at, say, Harlow.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Gwiwer

[Joseph_Pestell]

I kept mine for many years until the need to cull for removal exceeded any reason to still have them. I even managed to keep a couple of Gibson-issue Green and Golden Rovers which required quite a length of paper containing multiple low-value tickets. The Golden Rover was five 15p tickets which was I think the highest value available on the Gibsons. By contrast a small square of yellow paper produced from an Almex machine was all that was required if bought on a Green Line coach as these could show fares up to 99p; with S, R and C obvious as fare types a Golden Rover was V2. V1 was assigned to the Green Rover which was not available on coaches.

 

I managed every garage in red territory using Red Bus Rovers though UX was a fair hike into the country well beyond where any red bus (then) ran in service. I managed every "green" garage by country buses and coaches too, including RE, DT, SJ, LH and SA also on Red Bus Rovers as they were served by such. And I managed the "grand tour" a couple of times, right around London by green bus and Green Line starting and finishing in Horsham linking to Southdown's 2 from and back to Worthing. Very ambitious but very satisfying. I have no idea, in those pre-mobile days, what I might have done had anything gone wrong and left me stranded at, say, Harlow.

Congratulations! I tried to do that a couple of times but failed miserably and I was starting from mid-Surrey.

[bingley hall]

Just going back through my fairly meagre ticket collection and I came cross the Red Rover from the day the images in post #518 were taken...

 

There was also the Weekender which covered Red and Green buses, Greenline and the Underground. The cost of these made a serious dent in one's pocket money, so I can only remember using these on two or three occasions. How were we able to give our parents any idea of what time we would be home? I suppose we always had enough change in our pockets for a payphone, which were in greater profusion back then.

[Gwiwer]

Congratulations! I tried to do that a couple of times but failed miserably and I was starting from mid-Surrey.

Starting from Horsham at 07.55 (414 to Dorking) thence 712 to Leatherhead, 462 to Addlestone, 436 to Staines, 724 to Romford, 370 to Tilbury Ferry and cross by ferry for 725 Gravesend - West Croydon then 414 to Horsham was one way. There were some remarkably tight connections looking back and one needed a good bladder or an obliging driver willing to hold on if you couldn't for that 724 end to end. But we were young, somewhar carefree and less traffic meant punctuality was generally more reliable than today.

[Rugd1022]

[Coppercap]

1970s London #3.jpg

He's clearly forgotten the route: "Which way at these lights, me old squire?"

[45156]

Liking Nidge's London images there - very evocative, and stir the old memory cells.

[tetsudofan]

Some more pictures from the RH&DR Bus Rally last Sunday. Had to start with the Sealink Regent as I was conductor on the 11:06  and 16:05 to Dungeness and back. The 16:05 was the last bus of the day and as it became wet and windy by that time we had no passengers to Dungeness but had three passengers waiting for us and the journey back to New Romney. Turns out that they had seen the bus at Dover a couple of weeks ago and planned their day to be at Dungeness to catch a ride on the bus back to New Romney:

 

 

 

Next up is the East Kent Reliance also owned by the owner of the Sealink Regent:

 

 

 

First time I had seen RM8:

 

 

 

and something I had not seen before, a fantastic restoration of one of the BEA airport coaches:

 

 

 

....and now some more East Kent buses:

 

 

 

 

 

A couple of more modern single-deckers:

 

 

 

 

...and finally, something that looks as though its about to fall apart but, no, it's not. This Leyland Leopard was new to Southdown in 1963 and was sold to East Kent in 1971 and allocated to Cheriton garage to help convert Folkestone town services to one man operation. Restoration of the bus has just about been completed and a decision now has to be made as to what livery it will appear in.... will it be Southdown or East Kent? We'll have to wait and see:

 

 

 

...and having pressed the "post" button realise that I forgot to add a picture of an RML arriving at a rather dull, damp and miserable Dungeness:

 

 

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by tetsudofan

[Rugd1022]

Lovely selection there Keith - I can remember the later 'Heathrow' double deckers with their small trailers speeding along the A4 / M4 corridor past Hammersmith at a great rate of knots as a nipper, often cutting a swaith through the Mk1 Granadas and Mk3 Cortinas etc.

[Unicorn1]

Nice selection of photos Keith.

 

I didn't know the 4RF4 coach was going to be there, so I missed a ride. I saw it heading towards Dungeness while I was going in the other direction on the B&H Bristol.

 

 I have still not travelled on one after all these years!

 

Les

[PhilJ W]

Lovely selection there Keith - I can remember the later 'Heathrow' double deckers with their small trailers speeding along the A4 / M4 corridor past Hammersmith at a great rate of knots as a nipper, often cutting a swaith through the Mk1 Granadas and Mk3 Cortinas etc.

Later classified 'RMA'. They were fitted with the larger AV690 engine and a higher rear axle ratio. The only other Routemasters so fitted was the RCL class.

[Coppercap]

Lovely selection there Keith - I can remember the later 'Heathrow' double deckers with their small trailers speeding along the A4 / M4 corridor past Hammersmith at a great rate of knots as a nipper, often cutting a swaith through the Mk1 Granadas and Mk3 Cortinas etc.

One of these trailers was sat in a hedge in a field by a lineside fence alongside the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway certainly until recently (didn't spot it earlier this year, so may not be there now, or it's completely engulfed in the hedge). I'm not aware of these trailers being built for use on anything other than the Airport shuttle, so I can only assume it really was one of those.

[BrushVeteran]

Later classified 'RMA'. They were fitted with the larger AV690 engine and a higher rear axle ratio. The only other Routemasters so fitted was the RCL class.

Some of them were good for 65mph and we had a job to get passed them even with Leyland 0680 engined Bristol RE's on the Oxford-London service when it was originally routed along the M4. Mind you one or two of the RE's could easily exceed the speed limit.................not that I ever did such a thing!

[tetsudofan]

Nice selection of photos Keith.

 

I didn't know the 4RF4 coach was going to be there, so I missed a ride. I saw it heading towards Dungeness while I was going in the other direction on the B&H Bristol.

 

 I have still not travelled on one after all these years!

 

Les

 

 

Les,

 

We were on the Eastbourne Corporation Leyland PD2 behind you on the B & H Bristol on the way back to New Romney and, like you, missed a ride on the 4RF4.

 

Somewhere I've got some pictures of the 4RF4 whilst it was being restored in one of the sheds on what was the Romney Marsh Potatoe Company a few years ago when the members of the Romney Marsh Model Engineering Society were given a conducted tour. Must try and find the pictures....

 

Keith

[Gwiwer]

A good selection evoking some memories pleasant and otherwise.

 

The 4RF4 (deck-and-a-half) airport coach was one of a fleet based upon the RF (AEC Regal IV) design but uprated for use on the A4 Bath Road out to Heathrow and airside to the aircraft itself for which purpose they were fitted, I believe, with flashing orange beacons on the dome and spark arrestors in the exhaust.  The only other time that level of service has been provided was when Green Line had some Leyland Royal Tigers with Berkhof bodies modified for air-side work as part of the short-lived Speedlink operation shuttling between Heathrow and Gatwick for connections.

 

RM8 spent much of its LT life unpainted and not in service.  It only entered service (from Sidcup, so it is correctly wearing SP plates though the garage code was actually painted on at the time) very late in the Routemaster's lives so had rather few miles on the clock and saw service on he 21 up to Moorgate and out, if you were very early indeed, to Farningham as LT replaced a couple of early morning trips on the former LCBS 423 thence into Swanley for some years.

 

The East Kent line up shows how varied that fleet was despite an attempt to standardise on AECs for a time.  Guys and Leylands also featured as did the batch of Daimler Fleetlines one of which is shown.  Stylish bodies though as the "new kid on the block" their rear engines were not appreciated when new.

 

Southdown did indeed dispose of an early batch of Leopard buses which ended up at Cheriton.  They differed from all other Southdown Leopards in having a compromise body design with the new angular front ned but the old-style rounded rear dome which was replaced by an angular style on all other deliveries.  It would probably be most fitting to repaint the survivor in EK red / cream which it wore for most of its life.

 

Moving on to the Nationals the Hastings & District one wears a short-lived but distinctive livery using the Uncial font for the fleet name supposed to represent the antiquity of the area and referencing the Battle of Hastings.  Teh blinds are set for the 799 which was a strange fusion of routes brought about by licensing changes and coach service deregulation.  It was normally worked by grant-door Leopard coaches and ran between Worthing and Camber.  Quite an unlikely pairing until you remember that Brighton (a more obvious western terminus) was shedding all its country runs at the time to concentrate on the Brighton & Hove, less of the "& District".  They also abandoned their single-vehicle duty on the 700 Brighton - Portsmouth at about the same time when joint working with other companies, which had long been a tradition of the industry, suddenly fell foul of the requirement to operate in a competitive, not collaborative, environment.  Both the 700 duty and part of the 799 were therefore worked from Worthing.  The eastern end was largely a seasonal extension of the existing Eastbourne - Rye service (499 at the time) and which had once been a part of the seasonal twice-daily 426 Hastings - Dover upon which each of M&D and EK provided one round trip.  

 

The 799 replaced some workings on the Brighton - Worthing 230 which was crew-worked at the time and thus rendered one crew duty and two crews redundant.  It also replaced some trips on the 712 Brighton - Eastbourne which had recently become driver-only operated.  East of Eastbourne the 799 provided the entire service via the "direct" route to Hastings while the 98 continued to meander hourly inland. A best-ever  service between Rye and Camber all year round was offered though there was a cut from hourly to alternate-hours on the Eastbourne - Hastings and Hastings - Rye roads.

 

The 799 was a poor timekeeper, was worked by coaches with entrances which many locals found difficult to negotiate and was confusing to some.  Accustomed to catching a 230 or a 712 they waited for what they thought was still coming rather than board a coach going to Camber.  In Worthing it started from the coach station rather than the pier bus stops which caused many people to be left behind at the normal stop.  That was later altered to have the vehicle start in the coach station but turn right on departure, circumnavigate the pier roundabout and pick up at the 230 stop.  A coach saying "799 Rye & Camber" still didn't convince people it was going to stop in Shoreham or Brighton.   A handful of vehicles was decked out in "Stagecoach 799" vinyls using black and golden yellow against green and white livery. If only the management then had known what the future held .......

 

The four hours from Worthing to Camber was a trial of endurance and I suspect few if any ever travelled all the way.  On a Leyland National it would have been even worse though entry and exit might have been easier.  Ultimately the 799 was cut back to run Brighton - Rye then just Eastbourne - Hastings before service changes eliminated it altogether.  More long trips were to come however as under Stagecoach control there were briefly through workings between Brighton and Dover when the 712 was linked to the occasional Rye - Camber and Camber - Lydd routes to offer both through trips and some operational cost savings.  Those too proved unreliable and unnecessary and the status quo we have had along the Kent and Sussex coasts for some time now arose.  

[John M Upton]

Speaking of Southdown area long distance routes, even the mighty 700 is now split into three separate sections:

 

Portsmouth - Bognor

Chichester to Littlehampton

Littlehampton to Brighton

 

Arundel part which was every other one to/from Littlehampton extended has now been binned as well.

 

Speaking of Brighton & Hove's turn on the 700 leads to another delve into the Instamatic Archive with a couple of views of the then brand new (and unbelievably ugly) East Lancs bodied Scania N112's in Chichester:

Brighton & Hove Scania 703 (E703EFG) by John Upton, on Flickr

Brighton & Hove Scania 703 (E703EFG) by John Upton, on Flickr

Edited September 18, 2017 by John M Upton

[Enterprisingwestern]

A good selection evoking some memories pleasant and otherwise.

 

The 4RF4 (deck-and-a-half) airport coach was one of a fleet based upon the RF (AEC Regal IV) design but uprated for use on the A4 Bath Road out to Heathrow and airside to the aircraft itself for which purpose they were fitted, I believe, with flashing orange beacons on the dome and spark arrestors in the exhaust.  The only other time that level of service has been provided was when Green Line had some Leyland Royal Tigers with Berkhof bodies modified for air-side work as part of the short-lived Speedlink operation shuttling between Heathrow and Gatwick for connections.

 

RM8 spent much of its LT life unpainted and not in service.  It only entered service (from Sidcup, so it is correctly wearing SP plates though the garage code was actually painted on at the time) very late in the Routemaster's lives so had rather few miles on the clock and saw service on he 21 up to Moorgate and out, if you were very early indeed, to Farningham as LT replaced a couple of early morning trips on the former LCBS 423 thence into Swanley for some years.

 

The East Kent line up shows how varied that fleet was despite an attempt to standardise on AECs for a time.  Guys and Leylands also featured as did the batch of Daimler Fleetlines one of which is shown.  Stylish bodies though as the "new kid on the block" their rear engines were not appreciated when new.

 

Southdown did indeed dispose of an early batch of Leopard buses which ended up at Cheriton.  They differed from all other Southdown Leopards in having a compromise body design with the new angular front ned but the old-style rounded rear dome which was replaced by an angular style on all other deliveries.  It would probably be most fitting to repaint the survivor in EK red / cream which it wore for most of its life.

 

Moving on to the Nationals the Hastings & District one wears a short-lived but distinctive livery using the Uncial font for the fleet name supposed to represent the antiquity of the area and referencing the Battle of Hastings.  Teh blinds are set for the 799 which was a strange fusion of routes brought about by licensing changes and coach service deregulation.  It was normally worked by grant-door Leopard coaches and ran between Worthing and Camber.  Quite an unlikely pairing until you remember that Brighton (a more obvious western terminus) was shedding all its country runs at the time to concentrate on the Brighton & Hove, less of the "& District".  They also abandoned their single-vehicle duty on the 700 Brighton - Portsmouth at about the same time when joint working with other companies, which had long been a tradition of the industry, suddenly fell foul of the requirement to operate in a competitive, not collaborative, environment.  Both the 700 duty and part of the 799 were therefore worked from Worthing.  The eastern end was largely a seasonal extension of the existing Eastbourne - Rye service (499 at the time) and which had once been a part of the seasonal twice-daily 426 Hastings - Dover upon which each of M&D and EK provided one round trip.  

 

The 799 replaced some workings on the Brighton - Worthing 230 which was crew-worked at the time and thus rendered one crew duty and two crews redundant.  It also replaced some trips on the 712 Brighton - Eastbourne which had recently become driver-only operated.  East of Eastbourne the 799 provided the entire service via the "direct" route to Hastings while the 98 continued to meander hourly inland. A best-ever  service between Rye and Camber all year round was offered though there was a cut from hourly to alternate-hours on the Eastbourne - Hastings and Hastings - Rye roads.

 

The 799 was a poor timekeeper, was worked by coaches with entrances which many locals found difficult to negotiate and was confusing to some.  Accustomed to catching a 230 or a 712 they waited for what they thought was still coming rather than board a coach going to Camber.  In Worthing it started from the coach station rather than the pier bus stops which caused many people to be left behind at the normal stop.  That was later altered to have the vehicle start in the coach station but turn right on departure, circumnavigate the pier roundabout and pick up at the 230 stop.  A coach saying "799 Rye & Camber" still didn't convince people it was going to stop in Shoreham or Brighton.   A handful of vehicles was decked out in "Stagecoach 799" vinyls using black and golden yellow against green and white livery. If only the management then had known what the future held .......

 

The four hours from Worthing to Camber was a trial of endurance and I suspect few if any ever travelled all the way.  On a Leyland National it would have been even worse though entry and exit might have been easier.  Ultimately the 799 was cut back to run Brighton - Rye then just Eastbourne - Hastings before service changes eliminated it altogether.  More long trips were to come however as under Stagecoach control there were briefly through workings between Brighton and Dover when the 712 was linked to the occasional Rye - Camber and Camber - Lydd routes to offer both through trips and some operational cost savings.  Those too proved unreliable and unnecessary and the status quo we have had along the Kent and Sussex coasts for some time now arose.  

 

 

Have you ever thought of writing a book/magazine articles, this sort of information is too valuable to go to waste, so to speak.

 

Mike.

[runs as required]

The 4RF4 (deck-and-a-half) airport coach was one of a fleet based upon the RF (AEC Regal IV) design but uprated for use on the A4 Bath Road out to Heathrow and airside to the aircraft itself for which purpose they were fitted, I believe, with flashing orange beacons on the dome and spark arrestors in the exhaust.  The only other time that level of service has been provided was when Green Line had some Leyland Royal Tigers with Berkhof bodies modified for air-side work as part of the short-lived Speedlink operation shuttling between Heathrow and Gatwick for connections. 

I do remember those running from the BEA building over the (District ?) railway junction.

What is in the roof space above the forward seats In the above photograph. I recall it being a void but this appears to be bulkier baggage in the roof space.

 

It did appear very LTE in its detailing; I assumed they were Park Royal bodies. So were these and the RMs towing luggage trailers actually operated by LT on behalf of BEA?

I also seem to remember that in the days of VC10s, BOAC ran very smart dark blue and white coaches from their stylish Art Deco terminal buiding overlooking Victoria station similarly from check-in and customs at Victoria.  Can't for the life of me remember their provenance..

 

When young I made a model of a pre-war generation of LT 'Inter Station Transfer' Leyland Cub half deckers from a Modelcraft 4mm scale 'Lineside Plan'.

dh

[Coppercap]

 

What is in the roof space above the forward seats In the above photograph. I recall it being a void but this appears to be bulkier baggage in the roof space.

 

It did appear very LTE in its detailing; I assumed they were Park Royal bodies. So were these and the RMs towing luggage trailers actually operated by LT on behalf of BEA?

 

 

I believe there were luggage racks above the front seats, and yes, the bodies for this type of RF were Park Royal built, as was the RF prototype (the production RF bus bodies were built by Metro Cammell, and sightseeing RFW coaches by Eastern Coachworks). 

 

The BEA RFs and RMAs were actually owned by BEA, but were operated by LT.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Coppercap

[Gwiwer]

The 4RF4 coaches conveyed luggage beneath the upper-level seating. They did not tow trailers as far as I know. The BEA Routemasters (which eventually passed to LT as the RMA class) did tow trailers. Both worked between the former West London Air Terminal, which did indeed occupy the space above the Circle / District Lines and Triangle Sidings near Gloucester Road, with the 4RF4 coaches depositing passengers at the aircraft steps while the Routemasters set down outside the terminal building.

 

Matchbox produced a die-cast model of the 4RF4 which is probably quite collectable in decent condition today.

 

My memory is that both types were crewed by LT staff based at the Stamford Brook garage which had no other work. The vehicles were owned originally by BEA (Routemasters) or BOAC (4RF4) since the former were actually sold, not transferred, to LT when they became redundant.

 

Stamford Brook garage survives in use today. Nearby Turnham Green was the "red" bus garage, coded V, but closed in the 1980s as it was too small for new one-man buses. The entire operations moved overnight up the road into the vacant Stamford Brook which assumed the V garage code from run-out the next morning. It is still V today. One of a diminishing number to make use of a code from the original 1930s series which began with A for Sutton. Which is also still there.

[Gwiwer]

The split of Stagecoach South's 700 John refers to has apparently been brought about by the restriction on route length a driver may work without using a tachgraph. But given that traffic delays are becoming ever more severe and buses were running up to an hour late and in convoy something had to be done.

 

With B&H working one duty (two full round trips) of what were then seven on an hourly headway you needed wits about you. They neither issued nor accepted Southdown tickets meaning your return or Wanderbus could not be used. Likewise Southdown refused to accept B&H returns. Such was the world after the two had become private companies and were no longer both parts of the same.

 

Stagecoach has seen fit to kill off any remaining local services paralleling the 700 meaning it is now all-stops except very locally through Brighton city centre. It also runs every 10 minutes on the eastern leg though less often on the middle and western legs. Brighton - Worthing (and a long loop through Worthing's north-western housing areas) continues to support a very busy hourly night service three nights a week

[Coppercap]

Stamford Brook garage survives in use today. Nearby Turnham Green was the "red" bus garage, coded V, but closed in the 1980s as it was too small for new one-man buses. The entire operations moved overnight up the road into the vacant Stamford Brook which assumed the V garage code from run-out the next morning. It is still V today. One of a diminishing number to make use of a code from the original 1930s series which began with A for Sutton. Which is also still there.

 

I think you'll find that the garage codes are actually older than that! 'A' was used for Sutton from 1924, and the LGOC was certainly using garage codes before WW1.