Hornby & Ratio 4 wheeler mods

[bertiedog]

The spare 4 wheeled bodies on ebay look interesting as material for six wheelers, but where to buy the axleboxes etc as there are no shops round here that do them these days as separate items, and net listings name types but show no pictures to identify the types properly. The floor and solebars are no problem, as are footboards and buffers. Roofs are another matter, but can be vac formed from a single master roof to get matching sets, or made with wood planking, as per boat hull methods

.

The Smallbrook resin cast coaches are good LBSCR coaches, but a bit to costly for three for this purpose.

 

The 1 mm strip at the top of the "Panelling" of the coach may have been to take a different roof in place, Tri-ang's intention is now long lost.

 

At present the Bachmann 4 wheeled Coaches are difficult to get and a bit costly for this purpose. There are other kits from K's etc in the past, or etched kits at present, but the cost jumps up compared to the old Tri-ang based ones.

Edited May 14, 2017 by bertiedog

[SRman]

Could you cut up some old, unwanted wagons for the axleboxes?

[bertiedog]

Don't have the "unwanted wagons, lots of very crude 1950's castings that in the main do not match each other, and look quite ghastly!

The Four Bachmann ones are as below, the Wisbeech Coack looks the best followed by the Red Coach, but the 6 wheeler has got the problem of HO scaling and the Continental look to all the features.Those windows are very small indeed.

 

The Wisbeech coaches were small and low anyway, look at the Titfield Thunderbolt where one was used with the 042 GWR at the start of the film. The mouldings for the railings are a bit thick, but possible to sand thinner and reduce the heavy look. A pair would work well on a Stephen's Line.

 

The "Red Coach" looks the best for simple pairs of coaches, underframe sparse, needs steps and gas cylinders etc added, the basic body looks OK despite the HO scaling. The buffer beam is right height, and maybe a couple of mm could be added to generally raise the body upwards.

 

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

The Red Coach looks the best conversion, it could take a raised body, by extending the solebar upwards a bit, and adding the footboards and tank to the empty chassis underneath. Not quite OO scale but nearer and within the limits of older coach sizes. They are about £20 each though.... The wheels should really be changed to slightly larger diameter wood centred coach wheels gaining a bit of height as well

 

 

The Wisbeech coaches would look OK as is as the real thing was so tiny anyway.

 

Stephen

Edited May 14, 2017 by bertiedog

[Poor Old Bruce]

It looks, with the first taken apart, to be able to reduce the body height by about 4mm overall, which really improves the appearance, retaining the normal diameter wheels etc and putting the buffer beams at each end lower to get the buffers 14mm above the track.

 

The underframe is the current version of the plastic chassis that was first used in the 1960s (the first brake van to use it was the old Tri-ang GWR type, but a BR style brake van followed soon after) so suffers from the 'Tri-ang raised buffer height'.

 

If you can find the track cleaning version of the 4-wheel coach cheap, that has buffers of the correct height arl. You can always do a mix and match with bodies nad underframes and flog the remainders off at your local show or swapmeet.

[bertiedog]

The Brake Red Coach is also made, but a price check on the Tootally Thomas website shows £25 for each version....HMmm....an  import from the US, might still produce a decent pair of coaches to go with the Tri-ang as an alternative train. The Wisbeech coach would have to run alone as a buffet and bar conversion as per The Titfield Thunderbolt film.

 

 

Are there any other small coaches not mentioned as yet, apart from the Triang Rocket coaches.

 

Stephen

[BernardTPM]

Until recently panelled RTR coaches have been very sparse. The Mainline LMS Period I coaches have panelling of the late Midland pattern (similar coaches also done in 1:80ish scale by Rivarossi), but the Ratio Midland compartment stock has more or less the same panelling and they used to sell the sides seperately at one time (might still do if asked). At a push there was the Caledonian sides Triang used with Mk.1 chassis/bogies/roof. Can't think of any others not already mentioned.

[bertiedog]

Almost breaking the Bank, three more 4 wheelers are on the way today from Ebay at £3.50, so the more expensive Bachmann can wait for a while whilst there are improved as before. The main material for the wok is the plasic sheet for the seats and interior compartment walls, completely missing on the Tri-ang designed units.

 

I know there is photographic foreshortening in the photo previously posted here of the real four wheeled coaches, but the coaches appear very close coupled, which cannot be done with the fitted buffers. They stick out too far, and seem to leave a very generous 5 foot gap between the coaches end faces. The cure would be shorter buffers, but how come Tri-ang were so far out in size, maybe the buffer beam it's self is too far towards the end of the chassis as well. There has to be a gap to allow cornering, but this layout has bo stiff curves, so they will be as close as possible, perhaps coupled with a stiff bar to prevent buffer lock.

[Edwardian]

Until recently panelled RTR coaches have been very sparse. The Mainline LMS Period I coaches have panelling of the late Midland pattern (similar coaches also done in 1:80ish scale by Rivarossi), but the Ratio Midland compartment stock has more or less the same panelling and they used to sell the sides seperately at one time (might still do if asked). At a push there was the Caledonian sides Triang used with Mk.1 chassis/bogies/roof. Can't think of any others not already mentioned.

 

You can buy Ratio coach kit components by the sprue.  The Tri-ang 4-wheeler conversions use separately purchased roofs from the Midland suburbans.

 

Small sprues were £2.50 per sprue (e.g. 1 solebar for the GW 4-wheelers, and £4.00 for a large sprue, e.g. Midland ends and roof).

 

You need to contact Peco's technical department for a price.

 

I did pull a childhood Hornby 4-wheeler today.  After careful thought, I decided that it was probably possible to make a decent coach out of it, but that it probably wasn't worth the bother in my case.  Due to the compartment spacing it would do as a Composite and would be an odd coach to its particular design, with no matching coaches to represent Third class and Brake vehicles.  I just don't really need such an odd coach.  It would really add anything to what I have already planned.

 

I do look forward to seeing what Bertie Dog makes of them.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Edwardian

[Edwardian]

The Red Coach looks the best conversion, it could take a raised body, by extending the solebar upwards a bit, and adding the footboards and tank to the empty chassis underneath. Not quite OO scale but nearer and within the limits of older coach sizes. They are about £20 each though.... The wheels should really be changed to slightly larger diameter wood centred coach wheels gaining a bit of height as well

 

903x387-vert.jpg

 

The Wisbeech coaches would look OK as is as the real thing was so tiny anyway.

 

Stephen

 

These are very Stroudleyesque.  I don't think they match any particular LBSC diagram, but they capture the look of these coaches very well.

 

Blue Lightening of this parish has painted up a set for his layout, Oak Hill, and they do look the part: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_04_2017/post-22762-0-88435500-1491914366.jpg. 

 

Some early coaches had spoked wheel, of course, to smaller diameters than came later and could have very low bodies.  The fact that they are HO is not really a problem, though I, like you, would re-wheel (with Gibson 14mm Mansels).

 

While pricier, how many coaches do you need for a Light Railway train?  One of each and you're there. 

[Compound2632]

The fact that they are HO is not really a problem, though I, like you, would re-wheel (with Gibson 14mm Mansels).

 

 

How HO are the Bachmann Thomas coaches? When their Thomas and Percy were available here incognito, I bought one of each to re-Awdryize with faces made from one type of modelling clay pressed into a mould of another clay - I forget which - using the faces of the wooden Brio-style 'models' as masters. (Purely for personal use - no financial gain involved - if I do get any legal come-back from this post I trust Edwardian will be willing to defend me pro bono!) Both engines are pretty accurate 4 mm scale models of their prototypes... If anything, Percy is uncomfortably wide over the cylinders. Other items - wagons for instance - in the Bachmann Thomas range are re-branded OO UK models and the narrow-gauge stuff is definitely 4 mm - e.g. the re-branded (and re-priced!) L&B vans!

Edited May 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[Steamport Southport]

Those Bachmann ones look narrow gauge to my mind., especially the red one. Obviously not looking at the chassis.

 

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

How HO are the Bachmann Thomas coaches? When their Thomas and Percy were available here incognito, I bought one of each to re-Awdryize with faces made from one type of modelling clay pressed into a mould of another clay - I forget which - using the faces of the wooden Brio-style 'models' as masters. (Purely for personal use - no financial gain involved - if I do get any legal come-back from this post I trust Edwardian will be willing to defend me pro bono!) Both engines are pretty accurate 4 mm scale models of their prototypes... If anything, Percy is uncomfortably wide over the cylinders. Other items - wagons for instance - in the Bachmann Thomas range are re-branded OO UK models and the narrow-gauge stuff is definitely 4 mm - e.g. the re-branded (and re-priced!) L&B vans!

 

Quite so. They are nominally HO.  'HO' Percy's chassis will, one day, go underneath an 'OO' Arc Models Hawthorn Leslie body.  When I get a Round Tuit, that is.,

 

If you look at the latest Brighton Circle e-mag, there are some more pictures of Blue Lightening's conversions.  Compared with the prototype Stroudleys, they might look a tad low, considering they are with a Terrier, but, I don't think they are too small at all.  I'd certainly use them for one of my freelance projects, and, when in funds, I doubtless will. 

[Compound2632]

Those Bachmann ones look narrow gauge to my mind., especially the red one. Obviously not looking at the chassis.

 

 

Jason

 

Product dimensions are quoted as 5.1 x 3.2 x 10.2 cm - OK not clear what these dimensions are over but if the body, then at 4 mm scale, 8'0" wide - typical for the mid-late 19th century, 25'6" long - fine, four compartments just over 6' between partitions, 12'9" high - if that's to the top of the lamps, good. Typical dimensions would be 4'0" - 4'2" rail to floor, 6'0" height of sides, so just over 10' to eves. Perhaps BlueLightning can confirm?

Edited May 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[bertiedog]

The Bachmann red coach mainly looks odd due to the chassis and lack of footboards and under chassis tank etc., but without scratchbuilding them you are not going to get closer to a Victorian coach except for the Ratio GWR 4 wheeler kits. A lot of light railway items never matched each other or any one maker, perhaps the only unifying part was the livery. I need coaches that can be in use in a few weeks, not months away.

[Compound2632]

The Bachmann red coach mainly looks odd due to the chassis and lack of footboards and under chassis tank etc., but without scratchbuilding them you are not going to get closer to a Victorian coach except for the Ratio GWR 4 wheeler kits. A lot of light railway items never matched each other or any one maker, perhaps the only unifying part was the livery. I need coaches that can be in use in a few weeks, not months away.

 

Sorry, as you may have noticed there's a bit of an informal conspiracy to wean you off those horrid Hornby coaches!

[Steamport Southport]

Product dimensions are quoted as 5.1 x 3.2 x 10.2 cm - OK not clear what these dimensions are over but if the body, then at 4 mm scale, 8'0" wide - typical for the mid-late 19th century, 25'6" long - fine, four compartments just over 6' between partitions, 12'9" high - if that's to the top of the lamps, good. Typical dimensions would be 4'0" - 4'2" rail to floor, 6'0" height of sides, so just over 10' to eves. Perhaps BlueLightning can confirm?

 

Probably not that far off what narrow gauge ones were. Don't forget people are still the same size whether they are travelling on NG or SG. You would lose two foot in height due to the smaller wheels.

 

Look at the Pickering coach on here. Not that much different from the brake coach. In fact it's probably bigger.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/WHR_Carriages_(Pre_Preservation)#Note_10

 

Or number 23

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Carriage_23

 

 

Swap the wheels for narrow gauge bogies and you'll got the basis for a nice freelance NG carriage.

 

 

 

Jason

[Guy Rixon]

Why not do it the other way round? Buy a cheap kit for a narrow gauge coach and rebuild it for standard gauge. It would have to be one of the large loading-gauge kinds, not an FR bug-box.

[bertiedog]

They may be horrid, but cheap, as the set of body mouldings is also on it's way here, along with a Tri-ang vintage horse box 4 wheeler to act as guards / goods van with the coaches, just needs the wheels changed and underframe altered a bit. The old Margate Tri-ang ones have open ended axleboxes etc., which can be filled in and ball races fitted to take pinpoint morn axles and decent wheels. The detail on the mouldings is reasonable as far as it goes, but can be improved with grabrails and handles, lamps and brackets etc.,

 

[bertiedog]

Why not do it the other way round? Buy a cheap kit for a narrow gauge coach and rebuild it for standard gauge. It would have to be one of the large loading-gauge kinds, not an FR bug-box.

Most are still too narrow, but the sides might be useful, but the proportion of the windows to the sides can also be too distinctively narrow gauge in look

The HO scale based Bachmann coaches covert to narrow gauge much better, as they are that bit narrower than 00.

[Compound2632]

These big bogie 2' gauge coaches are indeed very handsome - the L&B coach transferred to the Ffestiniog set the standard for future coaches there but I note that like the L&B carriages, the Ashbury carriage No. 23 is 6' wide over the body - so 2' narrower than a typical standard-gauge carriage of the day. To my mind, the four L&B coaches are the most handsome passenger carriages currently in regular revenue-earning service anywhere in the country.

[Compound2632]

They may be horrid, but cheap, as the set of body mouldings is also on it's way here, along with a Tri-ang vintage horse box 4 wheeler to act as guards / goods van with the coaches, just needs the wheels changed and underframe altered a bit. The old Margate Tri-ang ones have open ended axleboxes etc., which can be filled in and ball races fitted to take pinpoint morn axles and decent wheels. The detail on the mouldings is reasonable as far as it goes, but can be improved with grabrails and handles, lamps and brackets etc.,

 

nnn.jpg

 

But like much Triang, the body really isn't at all bad.

 

The four-wheel coaches aren't Triang, they're from the late 70s nadir of Hornby.

 

Edit: I note that among its many liveries, it has appeared in MSLR brown - not sure whether that's supposed to be Mid-Suffolk Light or Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire but it must have a claim to be the only RTR model for either railway!

Edited May 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[BlueLightning]

Product dimensions are quoted as 5.1 x 3.2 x 10.2 cm - OK not clear what these dimensions are over but if the body, then at 4 mm scale, 8'0" wide - typical for the mid-late 19th century, 25'6" long - fine, four compartments just over 6' between partitions, 12'9" high - if that's to the top of the lamps, good. Typical dimensions would be 4'0" - 4'2" rail to floor, 6'0" height of sides, so just over 10' to eves. Perhaps BlueLightning can confirm?

 

I was silently following with a plan to dig out to take comparison pictures of the "H0" carriages. However you seem to have dragged me in!!

 

I did a while ago take some pictures of them with a ruler to roughly show dimensions so I have attached these below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the price and availability of these I ordered them from Tower Hobbies in the USA, as I wasn't in a rush for them at the time. However they cost less that £18 each including postage and arrived at my doorstep in less than a week!!!

 

Gary

 

edited to correct the name and website of my supplier as Edwardian pointed out I am a berk and got it wrong!!

Edited May 15, 2017 by BlueLightning

[bertiedog]

 

 

 

The four-wheel coaches aren't Triang, they're from the late 70s nadir of Hornby.

 

 

But the Box says Tri-ang... with Hornby added........

Edited May 14, 2017 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

The close coupling is being stopped by two things, the buffers are too long, and they are mounted to near the vertical end of the coach. Most real buffer beams are set back from the vertical end face, and this can be altered easily on the model by sawing out the beam and reattaching back by about 3mm or so. With shortened buffers the 20mm plus gap drops to about 12mm or a bit less, and improves the appearance of the rake of coaches no end.

 

As the chassis underframe came from a brake van, maybe the buffer were deliberately much larger, both diameter of the shank, and the length. The buffers can be cut and re-glued or replaced with smaller versions. The heads can remain the same or slightly larger. For the rake I am doing of three, the coupling will be a bar and pin connection to pull and push, without buffer locking.

 

The collection is now five coaches and six bodies and for the cost of one Bachmann Red Coach! The bodies may go towards some six wheelers if I can find or make the axleboxes cheaply. It may be possible to resin cast some sets..

 

Stephen