Hornby & Ratio 4 wheeler mods

[Edwardian]

triang airfix 6 wheeler guard3.jpg

The drawing assumes a new roof with the top edge of the side covered and lowered compared to the original, removing to offending extra strip.

The Ratio sides I do not have, and are a bit more than six coach bodies for a £5. I will keep your much appreciated suggestions in mind, there are two complete Ratio coming at the moment from Ebay as well, but will be as standard build. It is all to provide a variety of passenger stock as used on light railways, and to keep costs as low as possible. Te image above does ot look too bad and not too expensive for two or even three. More likely two and a Horsebox uused for goods and parcels.

 

Stephen.

 

Stephen,

 

I think you are on your way.  As you have these bodies, you may as well use them, but I do think the time and trouble of filling in the moulding would be hugely worthwhile in terms of the end result.

 

By the way, I think it was Nick Holliday who mentioned that 3 compartments to a coach was rare on all but early coaches (and these are not to a particularly early style), which is why I thought a 3-compartment 1st/2nd might be best.

 

I suggest that you do not need to go to the trouble of making these into 6-wheel coaches, as 4 compartment coaches with these compartment widths would produce a perfectly plausible body length for a 4-wheel coach.  You could easily add a compartment or two for a 6-wheeler, up to, say, scale 32' -34'.

 

That said, they could be 6-wheelers.  Coaches essentially similar in size to the Ratio 4-wheelers were built by the Great western as 6-wheelers.  The difference is really whether they were originally built as branch or suburban coaches or whether they were intended for fast mainline work.

 

Generally, though, 6-wheelers tend to be longer. For example, my 4-wheel coaches have 2-compartment Brake Thirds, the 6-wheel versions are 3-compartment, with the same length guard and luggage compartments.  The 4-wheel Third is a 5-compartment coach, but could easily have been 4-compartment.  The 6-wheel Third is 6 compartments, and so forth.

 

Another factor is that you have a uniform compartment width across the rake, which suggests they are all of a single class.  Now a workman's train might be all Third Class, so too might some Light Railway services, but it seems unlikely that anyone would have built a rake in this style at a single class/compartment width.  If a Light Railway were running an All Third service, it would surely be more likely to be with a motely collection of coaches including downgraded First or Second class compartments in the older vehicles?  

[Compound2632]

Further, the really nasty thing about these 4-wheel Hornby coaches is the way there is thin beading separating what should be raised mouldings and recessed panels.  That is most unprototypical and looks wrong as a consequence.  

 

That's the nub of the horribleness. It's a toy and a good toy too: closer to a Brio coach than a scale model.

 

I wonder how many of them there are out there?

[bertiedog]

Mainly it is the length of the coaches, th station can just take three 6 wheeled 3 compartment coaches plus an 060... and old 6 wheelers would have less axle loading for a light railway than 3 wheeled. Purely to look different from average, thats all.

Inspection coach...!!! er.no

[PhilJ W]

op.jpg

the front Coach looks like "brake van" short wheel based coach, and the rear a Wishbeech type coach as per the Bachmann model. Can't enhance any more detail from the shot. The  wheel base of the four wheeler looks very short indeed.

I will try to budget for some of the Red Coach Bachmann coaches, overall they are the best proportioned and correct to the vintage. They can be detailed quite a bit with handles grab rails, brackets, plus the footboards and underside details, plus the interiors, and a few passengers.....

The front coach is the original Brill tramway coach. A rather unusual design with a first and third class compartment flanking a luggage compartment, the end platforms was where the guard stood. The coach was withdrawn about 1899 and grounded at Brill and used as a linesmans hut until the line closed. A replica has been built by the Buckinghamshire Rail Centre and sees occassional use there.

[Edwardian]

The front coach is the original Brill tramway coach. A rather unusual design with a first and third class compartment flanking a luggage compartment, the end platforms was where the guard stood. The coach was withdrawn about 1899 and grounded at Brill and used as a linesmans hut until the line closed. A replica has been built by the Buckinghamshire Rail Centre and sees occassional use there.

 

Of course, I see that it matches the sketch in Kidner. Apparently known simply as "the composite"!

 

Mainly it is the length of the coaches, th station can just take three 6 wheeled 3 compartment coaches plus an 060... and old 6 wheelers would have less axle loading for a light railway than 3 wheeled. Purely to look different from average, thats all.

Inspection coach...!!! er.no

insp.jpg

 

That might explain the logic behind a Light Railway purchasing old 'mainline' 6-wheelers.

 

Always good to have a reason for everything you run.

[PhilJ W]

Many minor lines having obtained redundant 6-wheelers from mainline companies removed the centre axle and wheels to make maintenence a lot easier.

[Compound2632]

Many minor lines having obtained redundant 6-wheelers from mainline companies removed the centre axle and wheels to make maintenence a lot easier.

 

Probably the ride too. At the start of his career on the Midland, Thomas Clayton announced to the board his resolve of building nothing but 4-wheelers and bogie coaches, as 6-wheelers gave a rough ride. He was forced to back-track and retro-fit a third axle to his 28' and 29' 4-wheelers; I suspect this had to do with reducing the weight carried on each bearing. the Great Northern / ECJS 6-wheelers were notoriously rough, at least according to Ahrons, who thought they had octagonal wheels. But on the other hand, these minor lines weren't competing with the Great Northern for speed! 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Compound2632

[PhilJ W]

Probably the ride too. At the start of his career on the Midland, Thomas Clayton announced to the board his resolve of building nothing but 4-wheelers and bogie coaches, as 6-wheelers gave a rough ride. He was forced to back-track and retro-fit a third axle to his 28' and 29' 4-wheelers; I suspect this had to do with reducing the weight carried on each bearing. the Great Northern / ECJS 6-wheelers were notoriously rough, at least according to Ahrons, who thought they had octagonal wheels. But on the other hand, these minor lines weren't competing with the Great Northern for speed! 

It wasn't the weight carried by the bearings, it was more to do with the weight carried by the wooden centred Maunsel wheels. As steel processes improved and steel wheels came into use the need for a third axle diminished. As you said the minor lines were limited as to speed and the stresses were less so removing the centre axle had little effect on the running of such stock.

[PhilJ W]

Mainly it is the length of the coaches, th station can just take three 6 wheeled 3 compartment coaches plus an 060... and old 6 wheelers would have less axle loading for a light railway than 3 wheeled. Purely to look different from average, thats all.

Inspection coach...!!! er.no

insp.jpg

Another possible inspection saloon conversion would be to cut down two thirds (1 panel and door) of an end compartment to waist level, open out the two adjacent side windows into one single window and  make the rest of the body an open saloon.

[Steamport Southport]

Why am I thinking of Mr Drummond's Bug?

 

 

Jason

[bertiedog]

With the Selsey line in mind the 25 mph of light railways would have been speeding as the timings show more like 11 mph. The rough riding of three wheelers was mainly due to the side frames and floor being more rigid and unable to flex under load like a four wheeled coach could. Some Continental 6 wheelers appeared to ride well, but only because of very careful design of the springing. It is not just slackening the outer springs as this caused the 6 wheeler to pitch backwards and forward under load around the middle axle.

With all springs the same you get the firm unforgiving ride that 6 wheeled coaches tend to have.

I doubt at 12 mph it made much difference bar lower axle loading.

I don't think that Col Stephens deliberately bought 6 wheelers, he got what came with the line, or secondhand deals on anything that was in running order. He did not buy in rubbish, just cheap if possible.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

We will have the 4 wheeler down to one compartment soon! or do an open third in early Victorian style, actually not a bad idea come to think about it, the lower shell can have added panelling with swagged top edges to the panels and side doors, but then if you use a Dapol chassis the open body style would be easy to do from scratch, needs an ancient Bury type 040 to go with them, but not for this line.

[bertiedog]

The next thing is to find a livery for the coaches and airbrush a basic colour on to them, with minor panelling by masking plates. plain horizontal lining only, in press on lining, tape, or by bow pen, I think Maroon will be the best overall, as some greens just do not look nice, a bit metallic or to dark. A ruby maroon looks nice and takes lining nicely in creams and yellows. A company crest can be done in the inkjet printer, along with panels with Guards etc and other wording, made to fit the mouldings so as to leave no edges. It looks nice with white roofs, but lets be practical and go for deep grey. The underframes can be red oxide in various shades of rust and paintwork.

 

The shells can be weathered very lightly with shadowed raise parts and the same highlighted with white, all by airbrush with extremely dilute acrylic paints. Window surrounds can be painted a shade of light teak etc, as can any other distinct fittings. Handles and grab rails etc., in brass and nickel.

 

The roofs will have appropriate ventilators and the gas supplies, steps, and rain strips added over the doors, not continuous like more modern coach roofs. It may be possible to added the window top ventilators as well, raised, in plasticard punched out to get uniform size before glueing on.

 

Not sure whether a light railway would mark the smoking/non smoking on the windows. the line being in the 20's/39's period. Interiors can plain light brown/blue etc, with adverts on the compartment walls above the passengers. I see that Chinese makers do seated figure sets now very cheaply. Brown cork floors. I might even fit luggage racks of the solid plank type in each compartment, unless suitable fine netting comes to light.

Lighting will be LED with a super capacitor circuit to maintain it on, this will need pickups added to the chassis. They do not need to be wonderful as long as the capacitor can charge.

 

I am using the Sayer Chaplin Auto coupling on the coaches and stock, but I may couple sets up with bar and pin coupling. The locos all have the home engineered Sayer type fitted now, and they work very well indeed.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

After stripping and examining a couple of examples, the problems are very slight really, the height can be dealt with by lowering the wheel diameter, and altering the buffer beam, or one or the other. The roof is no problem, it's a plain curve not elliptical., and the edge can be added to remove the excess top area under the edge.

Removed existing brake rods and replace with vac and gas underneath, add top side foot boards. No need yet for the Dapol underframe, so costs fall dramatically to about £3-£4 per coach.

I am even tempted to leave the "GWR" style livery as it has excellent fine lining on the first two, although the others are Caley blue and far plainer finish.

Just needs the mods and an interior and it's up and working.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

With the GWR cream and brown the big improvement is the widow frames and door surround painted in teak finish or red mahogany, the lining is minute and acceptable. even the grab handles are all right considering the risk of removal damaging the surface, but the door handle will be added as it fits the circle marked. There is an angle vent over each door, it is only the next bit up that needs a strip about 1mmx1mm added to the roof to cover the excess top strip.

I need a new fine razor saw for the buffer beams the old is too blunt after use on brass. May be some more coaches in the post today.

Also actual measurement wit a vernier and a rule shows the buffer beam to only be .6mm high, not the usual 2mm, which may mean at some point that Hornby lowered the level from the classic 2mm high. It has Made in Gt Britain on it, not China.

I do not think .6mm is worth any worry about, dealt with by the wheels basically, so even less to do.

 

Stephen

[Guy Rixon]

With the Selsey line in mind the 25 mph of light railways would have been speeding as the timings show more like 11 mph. The rough riding of three wheelers was mainly due to the side frames and floor being more rigid and unable to flex under load like a four wheeled coach could. Some Continental 6 wheelers appeared to ride well, but only because of very careful design of the springing. It is not just slackening the outer springs as this caused the 6 wheeler to pitch backwards and forward under load around the middle axle.

With all springs the same you get the firm unforgiving ride that 6 wheeled coaches tend to have.

I doubt at 12 mph it made much difference bar lower axle loading.

I don't think that Col Stephens deliberately bought 6 wheelers, he got what came with the line, or secondhand deals on anything that was in running order. He did not buy in rubbish, just cheap if possible.

 

Stephen.

 

 

In fact, main-line 6-wheelers generally had softer springs on the central axle. One GER example I measured recently has: J-hangers and long suspension links for the central axle and plain spring-shackles for the outer two; Spencer's patent rubber pads as secondary springing on the centre axle only; nine spring leaves on the outer-axle springs but only eight on the centre-axle springs.

 

When H. F. Stevens started buying stock, c. 1900, the 4-wheeled coaches of the larger companies would have been mainly in two classes: ancient and worn out, or recently renewed and not for sale. The stock available for sale and in good condition would mainly have been mainly 6-wheeled. He could have had a job lot of District coaches after 1905 but perhaps they were too far gone.

[Edwardian]

In fact, main-line 6-wheelers generally had softer springs on the central axle. One GER example I measured recently has: J-hangers and long suspension links for the central axle and plain spring-shackles for the outer two; Spencer's patent rubber pads as secondary springing on the centre axle only; nine spring leaves on the outer-axle springs but only eight on the centre-axle springs.

 

 

 

This seems to have been very common on the GER, which was using 6-wheelers for mainline service, I think, exclusively into the Twentieth Century; I don't think bogie coaches (clerestories) emerged for general service on the GE until the mid-Edwardian period IIRC. 

[Steamport Southport]

There were still plenty of six wheelers in mainline service well into the 1920s and even 1930s. Some Midland Railway ones lasted until the 1950s as suburban stock. It wasn't until the mass coach building plans of the Twenties and Thirties that saw them phased out.

 

There's even a photograph of an LNER A1 4-6-2 pulling a set of GNR six wheelers on an express train in the 1920s somewhere. I think there are also some with Ivatt Atlantics as well.

 

Don't forget that the LMS were still putting Stove R, milk and sausage vans into express trains.

 

 

Jason

[Talltim]

Weren't there some post WW2 German 6 wheelers?

Edit: A quick google says yes, several thousand

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbau-Wagen

Edited May 16, 2017 by Talltim

[PhilJ W]

There were still plenty of six wheelers in mainline service well into the 1920s and even 1930s. Some Midland Railway ones lasted until the 1950s as suburban stock. It wasn't until the mass coach building plans of the Twenties and Thirties that saw them phased out.

 

There's even a photograph of an LNER A1 4-6-2 pulling a set of GNR six wheelers on an express train in the 1920s somewhere. I think there are also some with Ivatt Atlantics as well.

 

Don't forget that the LMS were still putting Stove R, milk and sausage vans into express trains.

 

 

Jason

The picture of an A1 hauling a short train of six wheelers appeared in a mid 30's copy of Railway Magazine, the caption stated that recently overhauled locomotives from Doncaster works were put on local services for running in before returning to the main line.

[Steamport Southport]

I found it when looking for photographs to justify the purchase of a Rapido GNR Single and possibly GNR coaches. There wasn't much of a description though.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[jcm@gwr]

Until recently panelled RTR coaches have been very sparse. The Mainline LMS Period I coaches have panelling of the late Midland pattern (similar coaches also done in 1:80ish scale by Rivarossi), but the Ratio Midland compartment stock has more or less the same panelling and they used to sell the sides seperately at one time (might still do if asked). At a push there was the Caledonian sides Triang used with Mk.1 chassis/bogies/roof. Can't think of any others not already mentioned.

 

 

The Brake Red Coach is also made, but a price check on the Tootally Thomas website shows £25 for each version....HMmm....an  import from the US, might still produce a decent pair of coaches to go with the Tri-ang as an alternative train. The Wisbeech coach would have to run alone as a buffet and bar conversion as per The Titfield Thunderbolt film.

 

500x214 brake.jpeg

 

Are there any other small coaches not mentioned as yet, apart from the Triang Rocket coaches.

 

Stephen

 

The GraFar suburban coaches (which are, again, a bit generic) do have a reasonable

representation of panelling, better than the Hornby 4-wheelers, but not as good as the

Triang-Hornby clerestories.

[BernardTPM]

Sorry, but the Grafar coaches do not have moulded panelling, though they do have bolection mouldings round the windows. The non-corridor type are loosely based on LMS Period II non-corrodor stock and the corridor coaches on Maunsell 1929 Restriction 1 stock. In both cases they are too short and, for the latter, the difference in height of the corridor windows is less than the prototype (a shame they didn't opt for the pre-1929 coaches with low height corridor windows which would have made them even more generic).

 

I did remember one other type of Hornby panelled coach - at one time they did a battery powered bus chase set. The coaches in this are completely different to the nomal 'Thomas' type having 4 compartments and proper panelling, though they come with unflanged wheels. Again there's a surplus strip above the top line of panelling, but the bodywork is superior to the standard models.

Edited May 18, 2017 by BernardTPM

[bertiedog]

The Caley blue liveried versions have arrived, I think black ends and the wood colours around the windows would make all the difference that's needed. These three coaches have slightly different metal tyred wheels, and are 1.5 mm high on the buffer line, this must have varied with the different wheels fitted over the years. They run much better but the Flanges! They will have to be changed to scale versions.

 

The Tri-ang Horse box arrived, R123 type with stub axles so fitting ballraces in drilled out bearing housings, with caps on the open ends, At least the chassis is metal, and heavy. Does run on the Peco Bull head track though, but not well through the flatbottom code 75 points, without a bump. It needs handles and grab rails, and black end faces to the coach. It can work as a guards and goods van with two four wheelers.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

The Graham Farish suburbans are quire rare these days, and costly on Ebay, where a seller knows what they are.

 

Stephen