Thoughts going out to Manchester

[EddieB]

I don't know. A few years ago, this country gave refuge to a young couple, fleeing persecution at the hands of a brutal dictator. They were given safety and security, somewhere to live and, over the course of time, they raised four children, helped by support from the state and the benefit of good education. Their children had opportunities presented that would be unattainable in their parents' home country.

 

So, having grown up in that environment, one of those kids decides he hates everything his adopted country stands for. He sets out to kill and maim innocent children and teenagers, setting off the most destructive device he could - a nail bomb - in a place packed with youngsters.

 

I hope this country never stops doing what is right and never turns its back on those in need of sanctuary. But how can it defend against those, to whom it has given succour, who seek to repay kindness with evil?

[Alister_G]

Unless the perpetrator was a complete cave dwelling loner, he had family, mates, friends, religious colleagues / associates, etc. who knew of his ambitions.

How can you state that they knew of his ambitions, without any evidence for that? He may well have kept it to himself.

 

Even the authorities knew of his presence ! ! [/size][/background]

That's not the case. They said they thought they knew his identity after the attack.

[Neil]

A terrible day, it seems particularly cruel that children and young people were in harms way.

 

We should be thankful that such attrocities are rare events. We should not seek to lay responsibility for lone wolf attacks like this slipping through the net, at the doors of families, communities or religious institutions. To do so disrespects the inate decency of the vast majority of citizens of whatever birth or belief.  If the question raised is what can we do, then the answer has to be tollerance, love, respect. friendship, equality. These attitudes can choke off hatred and resentment at source and they're something that we can all do, everyday.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Neil

[Ian J.]

I can only add simple thoughts and condolences to the expressions of the same already above. It's particularly cowardly to attack children in any part of the world.

 

R.I.P. to those that died.

[SHMD]

I am quiet today for I have thoughts, sadness and tears in my heart.

 

I have tears. Tears for the bereaved.

I have sadness. Lots of sadness for the families and friends affected.

I have thoughts. Many many thoughts for the bereaved, friends, the families, colleagues, neighbours, the teachers, volunteers, nurses/doctors/all NHS staff, police, Mancunians, humanitarians and all the descent people who are so appalled by such, such... ...words fail me again...

 

 

 

In 1996 I remember frantically trying to get I touch with my sister and cousin, who had been planning a shopping trip into Manchester all week...

 

In 2001 I flew into New York on the 10^th of September. The next day, the company (I then worked for), lost an employee on the Philadelphia flight. I know the frantic efforts my family (and employer) went to to get word from me...

 

I fly back to Manchester tomorrow to the news that a work colleague's daughter has arrived home safely but another (I don't know who yet) has a cousin missing...

 

 

 

My deepest sympathies to all...

 

 

Kev.

Edited May 23, 2017 by SHMD

[Edge]

The cause of this man's hatred remains illusive to me. This I am very grateful for, as I'm not sure that I would care to understand the mind of someone who thought it was a good thing to kill (among many others) an eight year old girl. It utterly escapes me.

[sb67]

My thoughts and condolences go out to all the victims and families. Also massive respect to the emergency services that were faced with what must have been total chaos. I cant begin to comprehend what happened and how people feel but I try to find tiny bits of positiviy to cling to, the stories of people helping the victims and cabbies giving free rides home to people confirm to me that there are good people out there. I know that's no comfort to anyone more closely involved than myself.

Once again my thoughts go out to the people of Manchester and to everyone going about their business stay safe.

Steve.

[Ceptic]

How can you state that they knew of his ambitions, without any evidence for that? He may well have kept it to himself.

 

 

That's not the case. They said they thought they knew his identity after the attack.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ariana-grande-concert-manchester-arena-bombing-suspect-salman-abedi-isis-claim/

[TheSignalEngineer]

A big thank you to our emergency services and health service staff yet again. They are a political football for 95% of the time but still come running to our aid often without regard for their own safety. Times like this are harrowing for them and for their loved ones who hear of an incident and know they will have been called to the scene. I lived with that for the first 24 years of my life when my Dad was a fireman. We were a close community so word got round pretty quickly when a big fire broke out, then there was the anxious wait for him to return home safely at the end of the shift.

[bike2steam]

 

They quite likely have no more knowledge of it than the rest of us, just as friends, neighbours and families of normal suicides are so often completely unaware until it happens.

 

Absolute nonsense. Unless the perpetrator was a complete cave dwelling loner, he had family, mates, friends, religious colleagues / associates, etc. who knew of his ambitions.  Even the authorities knew of his presence ! ! 

 

Don't bother Frank, you always get the losers, apologists(#23), and those that don't want to try anything - then do the biggest bleating when things go wrong.

[stewartingram]

I do think the modern tech society we live in helps these things. Terrorists thrive on publicity. We could never go back to achieve it, but the "instant" news coverage from everywhere is what they seek. The TV reporters at the scene, constant discussion on chat shows, social media (such as Twitter and Facebook), even forums like this give them coverage. I often think that back in WW2 we never had this. It could be weeks before we had a newspaper report of a battle or air raid somewhere. Maybe that was a better thing? I don't honestly know.

 

Stewart

[Reorte]

I do think the modern tech society we live in helps these things. Terrorists thrive on publicity. We could never go back to achieve it, but the "instant" news coverage from everywhere is what they seek. The TV reporters at the scene, constant discussion on chat shows, social media (such as Twitter and Facebook), even forums like this give them coverage. I often think that back in WW2 we never had this. It could be weeks before we had a newspaper report of a battle or air raid somewhere. Maybe that was a better thing? I don't honestly know.

Is that really what they seek? Or to just blindly kill and hurt anything that isn't them? It feels more like blind hatred.

[jjb1970]

I think the aim, if there could be said to be an aim, is to promote hatred, turn society against itself, provoke an intemperate response and lead us to dismantle the very freedoms and rights that are probably the great redeeming feature of this country for all its faults.

 

A very sad day, what is there to say other than extend our deepest condolences and thoughts to the victims and those who have lost loved ones.

[Southernman46]

I don't know. A few years ago, this country gave refuge to a young couple, fleeing persecution at the hands of a brutal dictator. They were given safety and security, somewhere to live and, over the course of time, they raised four children, helped by support from the state and the benefit of good education. Their children had opportunities presented that would be unattainable in their parents' home country.

 

So, having grown up in that environment, one of those kids decides he hates everything his adopted country stands for. He sets out to kill and maim innocent children and teenagers, setting off the most destructive device he could - a nail bomb - in a place packed with youngsters.

 

I hope this country never stops doing what is right and never turns its back on those in need of sanctuary. But how can it defend against those, to whom it has given succour, who seek to repay kindness with evil?

 

Well said Sir ..............

 

Best wishes to them all - just so young - there'll be no heaven for that scum - even Allah draws the line at killing kids ..................

 

I think as a general population, stoic resistance is what we can do best whilst hoping that those who can deal with the threat directly can act appropriately on our behalf .....................

 

To quote some words from another dark time - the enemies' name may have changed & religious focus extended but the sentiment still holds true

 

"Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be freed and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands"

[Ozexpatriate]

Terrorists thrive on publicity.

Is that really what they seek? Or to just blindly kill and hurt anything that isn't them? It feels more like blind hatred.

It is both. There's been a lot of discussion in the US around the distinction between an act of terror and a hate crime. The biggest distinction is that terrorism is intended to create fear amongst a targeted population - that requires publicity and our 'publicity' tools are better than ever, for good or ill.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[scots region]

I don't know. A few years ago, this country gave refuge to a young couple, fleeing persecution at the hands of a brutal dictator. They were given safety and security, somewhere to live and, over the course of time, they raised four children, helped by support from the state and the benefit of good education. Their children had opportunities presented that would be unattainable in their parents' home country.

So, having grown up in that environment, one of those kids decides he hates everything his adopted country stands for. He sets out to kill and maim innocent children and teenagers, setting off the most destructive device he could - a nail bomb - in a place packed with youngsters.

I hope this country never stops doing what is right and never turns its back on those in need of sanctuary. But how can it defend against those, to whom it has given succour, who seek to repay kindness with evil?

The thing is if a terrorist, or a murderer, or indeed any criminals, were to consider the most likely outcomes of their intended actions and objectively analyse the benefits of it they obviously would not be criminals. In short, there's little point in looking for logic behind these acts because the people commissioning these acts are not behaving in a logical fashion. This is true for every crime, there are very few circumstances in which you would genuinely have no options. Therefore it would be pointless to adopt an attitude of vindictiveness, doubly so as the perpetrator is now very dead. You can tell I'm not a public speaker, look someone has hurt people and there is that ever primal need, almost, to lash out, to strike back. Whatever you wish; someone needs to pay. What I'm saying is that at best that idea is a waste of energy, at best it adds more innocents to the pile.

[jjb1970]

The thing is if a terrorist, or a murderer, or indeed any criminals, were to consider the most likely outcomes of their intended actions and objectively analyse the benefits of it they obviously would not be criminals. In short, there's little point in looking for logic behind these acts because the people commissioning these acts are not behaving in a logical fashion. This is true for every crime, there are very few circumstances in which you would genuinely have no options. Therefore it would be pointless to adopt an attitude of vindictiveness, doubly so as the perpetrator is now very dead. You can tell I'm not a public speaker, look someone has hurt people and there is that ever primal need, almost, to lash out, to strike back. Whatever you wish; someone needs to pay. What I'm saying is that at best that idea is a waste of energy, at best it adds more innocents to the pile.

I don't really agree, there is a fundamental difference between morality and logic. The people who plan and carry out these acts are unspeakably evil but there is a logic to their actions. A twisted, evil logic but nevertheless there is logic.

The idea of provoking an intemperate response from authorities in order to drive a wedge into society and bring down all sorts of negative consequences for a targeted group is as old as the idea of terrorism as is the idea of promoting ideological aims through fear. The harsher the reaction the more marginalised a group (in this case muslims) become and the more support terrorists recieve. Represenhisble and evil yes, illogical no. The same tactic has been used by those fighting authority since biblical times and unfortunately it tends to work pretty well.

[luckymucklebackit]

This message is being circulated on various aviation sites on Facebook I believe that it is fairly apt for those of us that visit (particularly major) railway stations to photograph the prototype.

 

'Guys after yesterdays atrocity in Manchester the government will be deploying the army and armed cops ...very likely they will be watching our airports
closely... remember that there will be police and soldiers not aware of the special relationship spotters have with airport cops... so if you get questioned or told to leave the area just comply fully and dont swamp the airports police commander with complaints... his hands will be busy enough keeping everyone safe... even airport security who dont need to be wasting police time calling them to deal with us. Stay safe... stay alert...be the extra sets of eyes and remember we are on the same side.  Ours is just a hobby.. they are protecting lives.'

Remember if you see anything out if the ordinary text 61016 for British transport
Police 

 

Jim

[Bon Accord]

Understandable ? Blowing up kids ?

Hang your head in shame.

 

If you're not willing to understand why these things happen and accordingly be prepared to do something meaningful about it then don't expect it to stop any time soon. Delivering meaningless soundbites whilst continuing to openly aid one of the biggest supporters of ISIS and then maintaining a foreign political and military policy that's been a sick joke for most of my lifetime will achieve nothing.

Events like Manchester will happen again and again both here and on the continent, just as they have become a near fact of life in the MIddle East - that's the inevitable price for cack-handed interference.

The daughter of a fellow I work with was at the concert in Manchester on Monday night and she is still missing - her parents went down there yesterday and as far as I'm aware are still searching for her. The sadness I feel over their anguish is only made worse by the realisation that sadly they won't be the last parents to have to go through it.

[beast66606]

Take the security away from the Royal Family and Government Ministers and some thing would happen very quickly in solving this problem.

 

 

<shakes head>

 

You think it's that easy ?

[jjb1970]

To attempt to understand is not to condone or offer excuses. I despise these terrorists with a passion but their motives are neither illogical nor inexplicable. I'm just glad I'm not the one responsible for fighting them and protecting us.

[Mod4]

A number of posts have been removed from this thread as they could be considered by some as being inflammatory and also based on religious grounds which as you all know is not a subject for discussion on this a model railway forum.

 

Please can we keep this thread to be offering our condolences to those affected. 

[phil-b259]

To attempt to understand is not to condone or offer excuses. I despise these terrorists with a passion but their motives are neither illogical nor inexplicable. I'm just glad I'm not the one responsible for fighting them and protecting us.

 

Understanding their motives IS ESSENTIAL.

 

(1) The security services have to be lucky 100% of the time, a terrorist only needs to be lucky 1% of the time

(2) When the terrorist intends to kill themselves (e.g. blowing themselves up) its not as if your are going to prevent it happening again*

(3) To prevent terrorism inspired by radical religion you need to 'de-program' the terrorists minds - and you can't do that unless you understand what got them into that state in the first place.

 

 

* The IRAs campaign was designed around their operatives surviving an attack - which was useful to the counter terrorism forces as you could catch them afterwards and have definitive proof to put before the courts to get them locked up and thus remove them from the equation.

Edited May 24, 2017 by phil-b259

[Alister_G]

 

(1) The security services have to be lucky 100% of the time, a terrorist only needs to be lucky 1% of the time

 

I would put it more strongly than that. For this sort of lone suicide attack, there is almost no chance that you can prevent it happening, unless by intelligence you know of it beforehand.

 

Unless this country prohibits any sort of public gathering, and closes shopping malls, cinemas, concert venues, airports and railway stations, in fact anywhere where a large crowd of people might gather, then there will be targets of opportunity.

[APOLLO]

It gets close to home (Swinley, Wigan,1 mile away from me). Could be something, could be nothing but our local police don't (usually !!) walk around with machine guns.

 

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/update-man-arrested-in-wigan-in-connection-with-manchester-terror-attack-1-8560795

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-bombing-arrest-man-salman-abedi-attack-latest-news-updates-a7754016.html

 

I won't comment other than to state my rising level of concern.

 

Stay safe folks and be vigilant, as a previous poster has stated.

 

Brit15