First D-Trains ready for sale

[Coryton]

Quite a lot of coach operators use "cherished" plates or NI plates which they transfer from vehicle to vehicle as the fleet is renewed.

Just because it has a non-date plate it doesn't mean it's old!

 

 

Of course not. But it doesn't mean it's new either...

 

 

Cascaded HSTs not such a silly idea; they've been to Aberystwyth in the past so cascading onto the Aber - Birmingham International might bring some advantages to what is normally a long, noisey and crowded journey in a 158. Ex - Cambrian 158s to the valley lines, job done.

 

Of course the HSTs would need fitting with ERTMS, and running the Aberystwyth and Pwllheli sections together wouldn't be very practical.

 

In any case, in my opinion (as a regular user) 158's are very suitable for long journeys but I don't think they would work so well in the Valleys - doors too narrow (and in the wrong places).

 

They tried running 153s on the busiest morning trains on the Coryton line and they could never keep to time because it took too long to get people off at Queen Street.

[Coryton]

 - for certain values of "OK". I've seen quite a few leaks on Northern's 142s in rainy weather, through the roof and round the windows. I've even had to warn a fellow passenger 

 

Fair point.

 

But then I remember the wind whistling through the sides of Mk 2 coaches when the Liverpool-Newcastle trains were loco-hauled...

[GoingUnderground]

No she didn't. But she was embarrassingly close to doing so.

It's a very long time since I saw it, (I don't do the perpetual repeats on Dave), and thought that she was faster than him, but couldn't manage her target time. Thanks for putting the record straight.

[wombatofludham]

If - BIG if - the future WalesRail franchisee was able to blag some go-faster HST sets, they would most obviously be better allocated to Manchester/Holyhead to Cardiff/West Wales services, replacing the 175s.  They in turn could be fitted with ERTMS and become the Birmingham - Aberystwyth - Pwllheli and Birmingham - Holyhead fleet (a three car to Aberystwyth and a 2 car to Pwllheli would provide valuable additional capacity across Shrewsbury).  The existing Class 158s could then either be concentrated on the North Wales to Manchester and Crewe services, possibly with a 153 to provide 3 car capacity, which would free up the 150s which are used on the locals as well as longer distance services, or even swapped with another operator (such as FGW) for Class 150s which are better suited to the Valley lines.

 

All of which is highly unlikely to happen, but let's face it it's fun playing Fantasy Fleet Football.

[eastwestdivide]

... Fantasy Fleet Football.

I like it.

We need a single word for people who play that game, like "crayonista" for people who draw lines on the map to build fantasy new lines and connections. The term was originally from the London Reconnections site I think, hence the allusion to pretty colours of crayon. Thinking caps on...

[mountaingoat]

 

The Welsh Assembly wishes to see electrification of the Valleys lines but has no money

 

But they want to spend £1.2 Billion in building the M4 Relief Road around the south of Newport. I wonder if that money was spent in a way that would benefit the greater public, rather than the car owners who want to get past Newport as quickly as possible, it would be be far greater value

[D854_Tiger]

If - BIG if - the future WalesRail franchisee was able to blag some go-faster HST sets, they would most obviously be better allocated to Manchester/Holyhead to Cardiff/West Wales services, replacing the 175s.  They in turn could be fitted with ERTMS and become the Birmingham - Aberystwyth - Pwllheli and Birmingham - Holyhead fleet (a three car to Aberystwyth and a 2 car to Pwllheli would provide valuable additional capacity across Shrewsbury).  The existing Class 158s could then either be concentrated on the North Wales to Manchester and Crewe services, possibly with a 153 to provide 3 car capacity, which would free up the 150s which are used on the locals as well as longer distance services, or even swapped with another operator (such as FGW) for Class 150s which are better suited to the Valley lines.

 

All of which is highly unlikely to happen, but let's face it it's fun playing Fantasy Fleet Football.

 

Yes but we can all agree those HSTs (most especially the mk3 coaches) are far too good to just throw away.

 

XC could have some of them for a start.

[Neil]

But they want to spend £1.2 Billion in building the M4 Relief Road around the south of Newport. I wonder if that money was spent in a way that would benefit the greater public, rather than the car owners who want to get past Newport as quickly as possible, it would be be far greater value

 

Off topic but I always thought that the M4 relief road (along with abolishing the Severn Bridge tolls) was more about levelling the playing field for industry and business in south Wales so that they could compete without financial and logistical penalties with those in England. Doing this would bring more benefits than just reducing commute times for car drivers. I have a friend who until very recently worked for highways here in mid Wales, he told me that each road improvement project is assessed to see what benefits it brings and those benefits have a cash value whether it be time on the road saved, maintenance costs reduced, even the reduction in fatalities and injuries at accident black-spots has a cash value. In general terms if the benefits outweigh the costs then the project goes ahead as it will save money in the long run.

[woodenhead]

Agreed, improving commuter services isn't going to help industry shift goods along the M4 - opening up a relief road and removing the levy on vehicles using the most direct route into the country is.

 

If that leads to more industrial revenue then that will in turn increase income to the Welsh Assembly and allow it to fund the improvements to infrastructure be it new diesel trains or hopefully electrification and new trains.

[Coryton]

I like it.

We need a single word for people who play that game, like "crayonista" for people who draw lines on the map to build fantasy new lines and connections. The term was originally from the London Reconnections site I think, hence the allusion to pretty colours of crayon. Thinking caps on...

 

Personally I think the internet would be a better place without derogatory-sounding words for groups of people.

[Coryton]

If - BIG if - the future WalesRail franchisee was able to blag some go-faster HST sets, they would most obviously be better allocated to Manchester/Holyhead to Cardiff/West Wales services, replacing the 175s.  They in turn could be fitted with ERTMS and become the Birmingham - Aberystwyth - Pwllheli and Birmingham - Holyhead fleet (a three car to Aberystwyth and a 2 car to Pwllheli would provide valuable additional capacity across Shrewsbury).  The existing Class 158s could then either be concentrated on the North Wales to Manchester and Crewe services, possibly with a 153 to provide 3 car capacity, which would free up the 150s which are used on the locals as well as longer distance services, or even swapped with another operator (such as FGW) for Class 150s which are better suited to the Valley lines.

 

All of which is highly unlikely to happen, but let's face it it's fun playing Fantasy Fleet Football.

 

Well as all of this involves using HSTs that would presumably otherwise be scrapped, and then cascading trains around within one franchise, it doesn't seem as unreasonable as many suggestions.

 

Assuming everything is/can be cleared for the required routes...and that 175s can reasonably be fitted with ERTMS...and that somebody can afford to pay for it, and...and....

[Zomboid]

HSTs are the answer to everyone's problems...

Though of all the imaginary rolling stock cascades, sending a few to ATW for their long distance services isn't such a bad one. After having a 150 show up on Holyhead - Birmingham once, anything to prevent that...

[great central]

After having a 150 show up on Holyhead - Birmingham once, anything to prevent that...

You need a 37 and load 4 for that:-)

[Coryton]

HSTs are the answer to everyone's problems...

 

Well that just shows how good they are.

[Rivercider]

Meanwhile what of the class 230 D-Trains?

 

I would imagine the Vivarail team are hoping to sell more than a few of these. I would also think that from an operating point of view

it would be awkward for one or two odd sets to be deployed here and there, much better if there was somewhere where work could be found for a small fleet.

 

Going back to the original post, and the speculation about the trial Okehampton train service, might a small fleet of class 230 units be suitable for the Devon Metro?

A major factor would be, could they get between Exeter St Davids - Dawlish Warren - Newton Abbot quickly enough without disrupting the main line service?

Otherwise there could be more plus points than minus points if they could be used to achieve some of Devon County Councils aspirations.

Okehampton gets a train service that does not currently exist, and they could cover additional local services to Axminster (if they can be pathed, and keep clear of the Waterloo trains), - and free up a SWT class 159 set that currently works a couple of return commuter workings.

The Exmouth - Paignton service improves to go half hourly during the day and they would in part be replacing class 143 sets on that route.

Additionally it could be a captive fleet, working no further than Paignton/Barnstaple/Exmouth/Axminster/Okehampton, with all sets returning to Exeter St Davids each night,

 

Are there any other places on the system with a network of branchlines or stopping sevices where a number of sets could find work?

 

cheers

Edited June 12, 2017 by Rivercider

[The Johnster]

Of course not. But it doesn't mean it's new either...

 

 

 

Of course the HSTs would need fitting with ERTMS, and running the Aberystwyth and Pwllheli sections together wouldn't be very practical.

 

In any case, in my opinion (as a regular user) 158's are very suitable for long journeys but I don't think they would work so well in the Valleys - doors too narrow (and in the wrong places).

 

They tried running 153s on the busiest morning trains on the Coryton line and they could never keep to time because it took too long to get people off at Queen Street.

 

Doors too narrow, in the wrong place, and not enough of 'em; station dwell times would go through the roof and time needs to be kept on a service with such tight headways, especially at Pontypridd and Crockherbtown.  

Edited June 12, 2017 by The Johnster

[John_Miles]

Off topic but I always thought that the M4 relief road (along with abolishing the Severn Bridge tolls) was more about levelling the playing field for industry and business in south Wales so that they could compete without financial and logistical penalties with those in England. Doing this would bring more benefits than just reducing commute times for car drivers. I have a friend who until very recently worked for highways here in mid Wales, he told me that each road improvement project is assessed to see what benefits it brings and those benefits have a cash value whether it be time on the road saved, maintenance costs reduced, even the reduction in fatalities and injuries at accident black-spots has a cash value. In general terms if the benefits outweigh the costs then the project goes ahead as it will save money in the long run.

 

The above is true but if things are still the same as around 15 years ago, the way the sums worked it was much easier to get a road scheme to pass the financial criteria than the equivalent method for rail schemes. Much is made in justifying road schemes of the reduction in delays and accidents and then every time there is a minor problem the police come along and cause chaos with excessive lane closures etc.

[The Johnster]

But they want to spend £1.2 Billion in building the M4 Relief Road around the south of Newport. I wonder if that money was spent in a way that would benefit the greater public, rather than the car owners who want to get past Newport as quickly as possible, it would be be far greater value

Come on, you can't really blame people for wanting to get past Newport as quickly as possible, fair play...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Yes but we can all agree those HSTs (most especially the mk3 coaches) are far too good to just throw away.

 

XC could have some of them for a start.

Yes, but don't they need work to meet DDA compliance by 2020?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Meanwhile what of the class 230 D-Trains?

 

I would imagine the Vivarail team are hoping to sell more than a few of these. I would also think that from an operating point of view

it would be awkward for one or two odd sets to be deployed here and there, much better if there was somewhere where work could be found for a small fleet.

 

Going back to the original post, and the speculation about the trial Okehampton train service, might a small fleet of class 230 units be suitable for the Devon Metro?

A major factor would be, could they get between Exeter St Davids - Dawlish Warren - Newton Abbot quickly enough without disrupting the main line service?

Otherwise there could be more plus points than minus points if they could be used to achieve some of Devon County Councils aspirations.

Okehampton gets a train service that does not currently exist, and they could cover additional local services to Axminster (if they can be pathed, and keep clear of the Waterloo trains), - and free up a SWT class 159 set that currently works a couple of return commuter workings.

The Exmouth - Paignton service improves to go half hourly during the day and they would in part be replacing class 143 sets on that route.

Additionally it could be a captive fleet, working no further than Paignton/Barnstaple/Exmouth/Axminster/Okehampton, with all sets returning to Exeter St Davids each night,

 

Are there any other places on the system with a network of branchlines or stopping sevices where a number of sets could find work?

 

cheers

Talking of Metro-style services, the South Coast could be an option too. And they would not even need the diesel engines there.

[Butler Henderson]

In which case it's hard to see what would have been gained by replacing them with new vehicles.

 

By the way - the bus in the flickr photos very clearly has 2007 number plates. Maybe they've been changed now.

 

First point - Government have been providing grants for low emission conversions

Second point - Yes altered reg plates since that photo - the whole lot are now are H##ESU

Edited June 13, 2017 by Butler Henderson

[black and decker boy]

Yes, but don't they need work to meet DDA compliance by 2020?

So does the bulk of the current Wales fleet as the WAG have seen fit to ignore it so far and assume someone

else will have converted loads of units that they can then hire in 2019.

 

Meanwhile in the real world ...

[HillsideDepot]

So does the bulk of the current Wales fleet as the WAG have seen fit to ignore it so far and assume someone

else will have converted loads of units that they can then hire in 2019.

 

Meanwhile in the real world ...

An example of the "real world" is that this is the main news item on front page of the GWR website:

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by HillsideDepot

[Coryton]

Doors too narrow, in the wrong place, and not enough of 'em; station dwell times would go through the roof and time needs to be kept on a service with such tight headways, especially at Pontypridd and Crockherbtown.  

 

Doesn't a 158 have the same number of doors as a 150 (not counting the guard's doors that aren't normally available for passengers) and more than a Pacer?

 

But yes, too narrow, in the wrong place and bad news for dwell times, especially given the need for passengers on southbound trains getting off at Queen Street to manoeuvre themselves round the people staying on to Central.

 

As for Crockherbtown - had to look that up - learnt something new...

[Edwin_m]

If I recall correctly 158s are barred on some of the Valley lines, though I don't know why.