First D-Trains ready for sale

[admiles]

I always thought the vivarail units would work quite well on the Sudbury marks tey line. With a line speed of 50mph they would quite happily run up and down there each day

 

Thankfully the Sudbury branch will be catered for with a nice shiny new Stadler Bi-mode unit.......eventually.

[dibber25]

I can't think of any stock British Rail retired early in order to replace it with new build apart from steam engines (which were more about staffing and legislation than a desire for new).  A lot of early diesels had short lives but that had more to do with Beechings closures making them redundant than newer replacements (though perhaps the Westerns could have stayed longer in place of new 56's). 

 

EWS's purchase of 250 66's seemed wasteful when it resulted in 15-25 year old engines being withdrawn and the Eurostars and 442's seemed to have short lives (which have been explained many times on RMWeb) but that doesn't seem to be something that happens a lot.

 

We do seem to have arrived in a new era of waste with Anglias complete fleet replacement.  I can understand why Thameslink needs new units in order to operate a Crossrail style service and can see merit in the D78 replacement for similar reasons.  A raft of new stock at an operator will often see a bit of middle aged stock looking for a home but the sheer quantity of 90's built stock that could end up scrapped soon is a criminal waste of resources.

Ed Burkhardt, in conversation, said that the only reliable locos in the fleet that EWS acquired were the 08s! The availability of the rest was poor, that's why 66s were bought and the unreliable stuff retired even if they were only 15 years old. (CJL)

[John M Upton]

There was also the tale that when they took over what became EWS, their Chief Engineer came over from the US and was handed a list of the locos they had acquired whereupon it was discovered that some marked as "Stored Serviceable" were in some cases bogie less shells with most major parts gone walkies!!

[black and decker boy]

A new video has been posted on WNXX

 

 

I think it looks good and a 3 car train must be better than many of our current 2 car services, even if only short term. My only question, is it going to be reliable?

[woodenhead]

Excellent, when they rev it up it sounds exactly like a Transit

 

They should only offer this unit in white and they should give them names like 'Shirl', 'Kev', 'Tracey' or 'John'

 

They should fill a gap in the market though whether the proposed bi-mode 319 and 455 units will quickly overtake them remains to be seen

[D854_Tiger]

Excellent, when they rev it up it sounds exactly like a Transit

 

They should only offer this unit in white and they should give them names like 'Shirl', 'Kev', 'Tracey' or 'John'

 

They should fill a gap in the market though whether the proposed bi-mode 319 and 455 units will quickly overtake them remains to be seen

 

 

I believe the electro-diesel 319 will be far more expensive so can probably only be justified where it could exploit the bi-mode capability i.e. where there is some electrification.

 

The class 230 says Pacer replacement on the box so that's probably how it needs to be considered, a low density train on the kind of low density routes that are highly unlikely to ever be electrified.

 

With low density seating to match, for some of those longer journeys, it could be a significant improvement.

 

I would also like to see it considered for those routes currently operated by class 153 (indeed the Coventry - Nuneaton trail was precisely that).

 

If one of these, with 2+2 seating (maybe even tables), turned up on the HoW or say one of those longer trawls across Lincolnshire I would not be disappointed.

 

Shame it's been ruled out for Northern completely they have more than a few routes that fit the bill.

 

Reliability will be the key, once they can get one in service and prove that then I reckon it could easily become the preferred choice by which other options will then be measured.           

[Hesperus]

I wonder if there is any multiple working capability with these?  A low density unit working on the valley lines with another high density one multi-ed in on the peaks would seem ideal.  They should have 10-20 years in them which should give Network Rails electrification crews time to put wires up on these short but busy commuter routes.

 

The fact that these are barred from Northern is a shame but that could see the 455 convertions head north leaving room for them on southern and western jobs.

 

I agree that the 319 bi-modes should be set aside for jobs that can make use of the 25Kv capability, preferably up north with the electric only 319's.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hesperus

[Coryton]

The fact that these are barred from Northern is a shame but that could see the 455 convertions head north leaving room for them on southern and western jobs.

 

 

What bars them from Northern?

 

I knew there was a 4-wheel coach ban and assumed that these would therefore be OK.

[Hesperus]

The D-trains were an obvious choice for Northern when the franchise was up for renewal.  The press got hold of the story and were ranting about Londons cast-offs so to keep them quiet the wording of the franchise document specifically barred them from recycled tube trains (and anything 4 wheeled).

[PatB]

Excellent, when they rev it up it sounds exactly like a Transit

 

They should only offer this unit in white and they should give them names like 'Shirl', 'Kev', 'Tracey' or 'John'

 

They should fill a gap in the market though whether the proposed bi-mode 319 and 455 units will quickly overtake them remains to be seen

 

Acquisition of these units needs to be accompanied by shortening the block sections on the routes on which they operate, thus allowing them to tailgate preceding trains whilst travelling at line-speed .

[Titan]

Acquisition of these units needs to be accompanied by shortening the block sections on the routes on which they operate, thus allowing them to tailgate preceding trains whilst travelling at line-speed .

 

Including HST's of course...

['CHARD]

The D-trains were an obvious choice for Northern when the franchise was up for renewal.  The press got hold of the story and were ranting about Londons cast-offs so to keep them quiet the wording of the franchise document specifically barred them from recycled tube trains (and anything 4 wheeled).

 

The Northern ITT permitted units 'refurbished such that they provide the ambience and features of a new train' - D-train wasn't proscribed by DfT.  

 

However, it was not possible to make a viable business case at that time for making these units a component of the fleet.  That considered product readiness, risk, cost of acquisition, maintenance, performance, flexibility, training, technical suitability and so on.  In the final analysis, the units were just not ready enough for the bidders to have sufficient confidence, whilst the cost of new trains was falling - ultimately leading to the Greater Anglia fleet strategy.

[andania 213]

The D-trains were an obvious choice for Northern when the franchise was up for renewal.  The press got hold of the story and were ranting about Londons cast-offs so to keep them quiet the wording of the franchise document specifically barred them from recycled tube trains (and anything 4 wheeled).

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was the top speed ( quoted as 60mph) that actually ruled them out for this franchise, 

One instance I can quote you is the way a 142 ( 75mph), has to go flat out down the ECML on the 'fast' Hull - York trains that miss out Sherburn etc.

The Pacers can just about time the job on this, anything slower would I suspect not be popular, especially with the operators.

 

Given the way Northern's network straddles and interlinks with several main / secondary main lines, where other franchises run 'express' services,  Northern no doubt need units capable of some relatively fast running on spells of fast running,. I suspect that a 60mph unit just isn't quick enough for general use on this franchise, given current timetabling and stock diagramming.    

 

ISTR some time back it was said that 75mph units were often difficult to path, and that what was needed were more 90/100mph units. Even if the 230's were complete new build, ie had no 'cast off' tag,  at 60 mph max, do they match what the actuality of modern day operations demand?

I suspect the answer is yes, but, only in a possibly quite restricted number of cases. 

 

Ken G

[The Johnster]

Excellent, when they rev it up it sounds exactly like a Transit

 

They should only offer this unit in white and they should give them names like 'Shirl', 'Kev', 'Tracey' or 'John'

 

They should fill a gap in the market though whether the proposed bi-mode 319 and 455 units will quickly overtake them remains to be seen

 

I reckon a bi-mode 319, even running on diesel, would overtake one of these on a parallel line.  Oh, I see what you mean...

[D854_Tiger]

The D-trains were an obvious choice for Northern when the franchise was up for renewal.  The press got hold of the story and were ranting about Londons cast-offs so to keep them quiet the wording of the franchise document specifically barred them from recycled tube trains (and anything 4 wheeled).

 

One of the design configuraion pictures, on the Vivarail website, even shows one equipped with a buffet.

 

I belive a minimum requirement should be that the tube style seating really has to go to overcome these kinds of accusations.

 

If they look like Tube trains then that's what they will be called.

 

The class 230 doesn't sound underpowered with 400 hp per coach compared to a Pacer's 225 hp, maybe not as fast on the top speed but quicker off the mark and that's what counts on the kind of stopping services Pacers are mostly used upon.

 

Fast runs down main lnes don't happen very often with Pacers but, before electrification, I was surprised to find them on Manchester Victoria - Lime Street limited stop services, I had imagined they might have had something better for that.

 

The ride expreince wasn't so bad, on good track, but the overall experience was somewhat painful, slow and noisy.

 

I once went from Sheffiled to Huddersfield on one and that was great fun, jointed track most of the way and those sharp bends, one after another, nodding and wheel squeel all the way.

 

Also had one on the SO Cleethorpes parliamentary to Shefield via Gainsborough, somewhere in Kirton tunnel the brakes were applied, we came out the other end with square wheels and the nice sound of wheel flats acompanying us all the way to Sheffield.

[The Johnster]

I believe the electro-diesel 319 will be far more expensive so can probably only be justified where it could exploit the bi-mode capability i.e. where there is some electrification.

 

The class 230 says Pacer replacement on the box so that's probably how it needs to be considered, a low density train on the kind of low density routes that are highly unlikely to ever be electrified.

 

With low density seating to match, for some of those longer journeys, it could be a significant improvement.

 

I would also like to see it considered for those routes currently operated by class 153 (indeed the Coventry - Nuneaton trail was precisely that).

 

If one of these, with 2+2 seating (maybe even tables), turned up on the HoW or say one of those longer trawls across Lincolnshire I would not be disappointed.

 

Shame it's been ruled out for Northern completely they have more than a few routes that fit the bill.

 

Reliability will be the key, once they can get one in service and prove that then I reckon it could easily become the preferred choice by which other options will then be measured.           

Longer hauls, hmm.  Are there lavatories provided?

[The Johnster]

Acquisition of these units needs to be accompanied by shortening the block sections on the routes on which they operate, thus allowing them to tailgate preceding trains whilst travelling at line-speed .

Do you mean that a 230 could then tailgate a train able to travel at a line speed faster than the 230 can manage?  if so, I see what you're getting at, but block regulations don't work like that.  And they have to prevent trains travelling at line speed from tailgating 230s in a more literal sense...

[melmerby]

Longer hauls, hmm.  Are there lavatories provided?

Again wouldn't the provision of lavs be up to the Rosco/Franchisee?

 

Vivarail are starting with a sound bodyshell and not too old bogies and most of the rest is a blank canvas.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Do you mean that a 230 could then tailgate a train able to travel at a line speed faster than the 230 can manage?  if so, I see what you're getting at, but block regulations don't work like that.  And they have to prevent trains travelling at line speed from tailgating 230s in a more literal sense...

Transit engines - white vans - motorway outside lane etc.(it's a joke)

 

Keith

[Coryton]

The Northern ITT permitted units 'refurbished such that they provide the ambience and features of a new train' - D-train wasn't proscribed by DfT.  

 

That suggests that the principle that people think a train is new if it looks new on the inside is recognised by the DfT.

 

They did prohibit Pacers (or rather anything 4 wheeled) from the franchise though, didn't they?

 

ISTR some time back it was said that 75mph units were often difficult to path, and that what was needed were more 90/100mph units. Even if the 230's were complete new build, ie had no 'cast off' tag,  at 60 mph max, do they match what the actuality of modern day operations demand?

I suspect the answer is yes, but, only in a possibly quite restricted number of cases. 

 

Ken G

 

I can't think of many real branch lines that remain, i.e. services which don't include some main line running and therefore mixing with long distance trains.

 

But I would have thought that in the Welsh valleys 60 mph would be just fine. Apart from Maesteg and Ebbw Vale the local routes are largely self contained.

 

Should certainly be fine for the Cardiff Bay shuttle. Then again a 139 would probably do the job.

[Talltim]

Acquisition of these units needs to be accompanied by shortening the block sections on the routes on which they operate, thus allowing them to tailgate preceding trains whilst travelling at line-speed .

That's the the (Mercedes) Sprinter engined version

[Talltim]

Fast runs down main lnes don't happen very often with Pacers but, before electrification, I was surprised to find them on Manchester Victoria - Lime Street limited stop services, I had imagined they might have had something better for that.

 

Many diagrams do include bits of fast running on main lines, between the slower sections

[GoingUnderground]

Excellent, when they rev it up it sounds exactly like a Transit

 

They should only offer this unit in white and they should give them names like 'Shirl', 'Kev', 'Tracey' or 'John'

 

They should fill a gap in the market though whether the proposed bi-mode 319 and 455 units will quickly overtake them remains to be seen

It should have no problems tailgating other trains with its Transit van background. Sabine Schmidt thrashed a Transit round the Nurburgring faster than Clarkson in his Jag.

[Titan]

It should have no problems tailgating other trains with its Transit van background. Sabine Schmidt thrashed a Transit round the Nurburgring faster than Clarkson in his Jag.

 

No she didn't. But she was embarrassingly close to doing so.

[John_Miles]

That suggests that the principle that people think a train is new if it looks new on the inside is recognised by the DfT.

 

They did prohibit Pacers (or rather anything 4 wheeled) from the franchise though, didn't they?

 

 

I can't think of many real branch lines that remain, i.e. services which don't include some main line running and therefore mixing with long distance trains.

 

But I would have thought that in the Welsh valleys 60 mph would be just fine. Apart from Maesteg and Ebbw Vale the local routes are largely self contained.

 

Should certainly be fine for the Cardiff Bay shuttle. Then again a 139 would probably do the job.

 

I believe that on sections of the Valley lines, line speed is well above 60, especially south of Pontypridd and north of Radyr.