First D-Trains ready for sale

[Covkid]

The problem using a 153 with other units is the different route restrictions. Reforming them into either 2 or 3 car units minimises this problem and at the same time prevents the need for excessive crew training on a unit they may not be familiar with.

 

Are there many places a 153 can go that a 150 can't?

 

I wouldn't have thought that adding a 150 coach to a 153 would significantly restrict them.

 

AFAIK the only restrictions on 153s over 150s are the steps at the microcab end.  If this end were semi permanently coupled the the non driving end of the 150 car then theoretically microcab would be unused and the steps could be removed, as well as the GSMR and TPWS kit. 

[Covkid]

I guess the question here is more ‘do any TOCs need or want class 153 in any configuration?’

 

Clearly Northern opted to not keep the 153s, be that in 1,2 or 3 car format. They opted instead to form 3 car class 150s and take on extra 156, 158 and 170 plus buy the 195s.

 

Anglia have gone full new build. GWR are standardising on 150/2, 158 or 165/166 for regional services plus mini HST.

 

Only Wales and EMT remain users in the medium term and that’s only due to timing of their ITT for retender.

 

With so many 156/158/170 coming free in the next 3 years, are there any capacity problems out there that need a 153?

 

Not sure about the Anglia fleet fate, but I would have thought the 156 is a far better option that the 150 for retention.

Not sure there are any 158s without homes in three years, and the Anglia 170s will surely be rehomed. It is just that the Rosco fleet news hasn't been released

to the industry yet. 

[Coryton]

With so many 156/158/170 coming free in the next 3 years, are there any capacity problems out there that need a 153?

 

It's very rare that the Cardiff Bay shuttle needs anything longer than a 153.

 

Not exactly the most suitable layout for such a trip mind.

[Glorious NSE]

I guess the question here is more ‘do any TOCs need or want class 153 in any configuration?’

 

Clearly Northern opted to not keep the 153s, be that in 1,2 or 3 car format. They opted instead to form 3 car class 150s and take on extra 156, 158 and 170 plus buy the 195s.

 

Anglia have gone full new build. GWR are standardising on 150/2, 158 or 165/166 for regional services plus mini HST.

 

Only Wales and EMT remain users in the medium term and that’s only due to timing of their ITT for retender.

 

With so many 156/158/170 coming free in the next 3 years, are there any capacity problems out there that need a 153?

There are lines where a 153 is perfect (at least most of the time anyhow) - but unless they get the PRM-TSI mods (and as up-thread - not cheap/easy on a 153, plus nobody appears to even be attempting it yet) then they need replacing by the end of next year*.

 

Tick. Tick. Tick...

 

*Late panic applications by new operators for derogations and exemptions excepting.

[stewartingram]

Once you have signed on the dotted line for your new car finance deal the monthly repayments are fixed for the terms of the lease, just as my mortgage is fixed for 10 years so I dont really care what happens to interest rates over that period.

 

Edited to correct autocorrect.

​And what about all those variable rate mortgages? With a change in payment every time the interest rate went up or down, my 1st mortgage was paid off early by about 10 years.

 

Stewart

[Glorious NSE]

​And what about all those variable rate mortgages? With a change in payment every time the interest rate went up or down, my 1st mortgage was paid off early by about 10 years.

Car ones are usually fixed payments though.

[jjb1970]

I tend to think that one of the things that may work against the D Train is that companies like Siemens and Hitachi can put together very attractive finance packages. If you are going to lease an asset as opposed to buying it, then the finance package is generally more important than the headline purchase price and it isn't that uncommon for ostensibly more expensive products to come in with lower finance costs than cheaper alternatives because of things like the finance deals on offer and residual value.

[Hesperus]

According to Wiki ATW currently have 30 Pacers,  36 150/2's and 8 153's (+ 158's, 175's and WAG).

 

There are 70 153's of which 17 are with EMT,  if ATW could get hold of the rest before the deadline they could form 52x150/153 hybrids leaving one 153 for the Cardiff Bay shuttle and 10 untouched 150/2's.  This would give them 63 trains where they currently have 74 (+158/175/WAG) along with 5 319 flex units on order which are 4 car.  Assuming that at least one current service is formed of 2x 153 and each flex replaces a pair of Pacers or 150/2s then they have enough stock to not be any worse.  As a 150/153 hybrid is a good bit bigger than a Pacer then it could be enough to get them out of trouble for the moment so long as they can get all their 150s through PRM-TSI mods in the next 21 months.

 

They are experiencing a lot of capacity problems though so hopefully a few 158's can find their way down to Cardiff too.

[Fenman]

Once you have signed on the dotted line for your new car finance deal the monthly repayments are fixed for the terms of the lease, just as my mortgage is fixed for 10 years so I dont really care what happens to interest rates over that period.

 

Edited to correct autocorrect.

Indeed. I was more concerned about what happens when your old lease ends but, in the meantime, interest rates have gone up. Overnight, your replacement shiny new car is a lot more expensive. You can’t keep the old one because of the weighted “balloon payment” which is designed to make it much more attractive to get a new one.

 

Maybe I’m an old fart, and the joy of having a new car while interest rates are low is a price worth paying.

 

Paul

[stewartingram]

I'm an old fart too, & I've never had the "joy" of a new car, nor wanted one, especially with today's models. I'll stick with my '04 Rover 75 thanks. I do all the maintenance myself, it has all the toys,built like a brick outhose, ultra reliable, there is  nothing about that I'd rather have instead. Expensive to buy though, cost me £700 to buy 12 months ago.

 

Stewart

Edited March 5, 2018 by stewartingram

[Zomboid]

The whole car industry is built around the finance structure these days - the car building is almost a secondary activity. If people started paying the balloon payment and keeping the cars, there would be a lot of car factories without much work to do for a while. (Cars generally being things that have a finite life will keep an amount of churn in the market, but not too the degree that things happen these days).

 

The car companies will not poison the well by making their finance deals unaffordable to the kind of folk who presently take them up.

[Fenman]

The whole car industry is built around the finance structure these days - the car building is almost a secondary activity. If people started paying the balloon payment and keeping the cars, there would be a lot of car factories without much work to do for a while. (Cars generally being things that have a finite life will keep an amount of churn in the market, but not too the degree that things happen these days).

 

The car companies will not poison the well by making their finance deals unaffordable to the kind of folk who presently take them up.

 

I read somewhere that the car hire companies make no money from hiring cars - it's mostly a breakeven activity. But they negotiate massive discounts from the manufacturers for bulk buying, then slap the cars on the used market 6 months later when the depreciation is less than the original huge discount. The companies are thus basically car laundering machines, rather than car hire companies. I have no idea if that's true, but it was a startling perspective.

 

A bit like company annual reports that show that, financially speaking, an airport is fundamentally a large car park and shopping mall, with a couple of runways on the side.

 

Paul

[Zomboid]

Car dealers certainly don't make any money from selling cars. Finance and insurance selling is where they make money.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if hire companies just about covered their costs from the hiring. The world is full of this kind of thing.

[Glorious NSE]

According to Wiki ATW currently have 30 Pacers,  36 150/2's and 8 153's (+ 158's, 175's and WAG).

 

There are 70 153's of which 17 are with EMT,  if ATW could get hold of the rest before the deadline they could form 52x150/153 hybrids leaving one 153 for the Cardiff Bay shuttle and 10 untouched 150/2's.  This would give them 63 trains where they currently have 74 (+158/175/WAG) along with 5 319 flex units on order which are 4 car.  Assuming that at least one current service is formed of 2x 153 and each flex replaces a pair of Pacers or 150/2s then they have enough stock to not be any worse.  As a 150/153 hybrid is a good bit bigger than a Pacer then it could be enough to get them out of trouble for the moment so long as they can get all their 150s through PRM-TSI mods in the next 21 months.

 

They are experiencing a lot of capacity problems though so hopefully a few 158's can find their way down to Cardiff too.

You'd need to be adding an accessible toilet to *all* of the class 150 cars (of the 26 sets being split) for that to work though, not impossible, but more work against a tight deadline.

Ideally you could then do with removing the toilet from the 153s (and the small cab could become redundant also) to create a bit more seating space (though you wouldn't have to do that on day one) - you'd have to remove the toilet on the Cardiff Bay one anyhow.

 

Whilst we're fantasy fleetlisting though, I wouldn't bet against them being able to get all 70 153s though, depending on what the EMT strategy ends up being.

 

If they managed that (and toilet fitted *all* their 150 vehicles) then you'd get a like fleet of 68x 150/153 combo's, plus a pair of 3 cars (150+153+150). Throw in the 5x 319 Flex units to the mix and (counting them as equiv two sets) you're now at an equivalent of 80 sets from todays 74 - and your fleet car count is 162 cars rather than todays 140. (Plus 158/175 etc...) which ought to be a useful capacity uplift for them.

 

 

 

[Coryton]

You'd need to be adding an accessible toilet to *all* of the class 150 cars (of the 26 sets being split) for that to work though, not impossible, but more work against a tight deadline.

Ideally you could then do with removing the toilet from the 153s (and the small cab could become redundant also) to create a bit more seating space (though you wouldn't have to do that on day one) - you'd have to remove the toilet on the Cardiff Bay one anyhow.

 

Whilst we're fantasy fleetlisting though, I wouldn't bet against them being able to get all 70 153s though, depending on what the EMT strategy ends up being.

 

If they managed that (and toilet fitted *all* their 150 vehicles) then you'd get a like fleet of 68x 150/153 combo's, plus a pair of 3 cars (150+153+150). Throw in the 5x 319 Flex units to the mix and (counting them as equiv two sets) you're now at an equivalent of 80 setsxfrom todays 74 - and your fleet car count is 162 cars rather than todays 140. (Plus 158/175 etc...) which ought to be a useful capacity uplift for them.

 

 

Going a bit off-topic, I've heard there are some DMUs made out of old District line trains that might be available.

 

Oh wait....

[corneliuslundie]

I suspect that ATW will just slog it out with what they have. They are not bidding for the new franchise so have no interest in new stock. They only got their extra 158 for the Cambrian lines with finance from the welsh Assembly. Where would be the return on spending a lot on units they won't be using by the time the accessibilty regulations come into force/

just at the moment they have enough problems with their class 175s thanks to a rail problem on the Marches line. (see another thread here)

Jonathan

[Hesperus]

That could work very much in Vivarails favour.  If a new operator starts in October and inherits the current fleet with no plans in place for 2020 then a large order with Mr Shooter may be the only choice available.

 

Where can I place a £5 bet that Pacers are still working in The Valleys in 2020?

[corneliuslundie]

I am not taking your bet. That has been my thought for some time.

But the Welsh Assembly has grandiloquent plans for the Valleys Lines. South Wales Metro. Also apparently a similar scheme for the Swansea area.

How do you say "Pigs might fly" in Welsh?

Jonathan

[Arun Sharma]

I am not taking your bet. That has been my thought for some time.

But the Welsh Assembly has grandiloquent plans for the Valleys Lines. South Wales Metro. Also apparently a similar scheme for the Swansea area.

How do you say "Pigs might fly" in Welsh?

Jonathan

According to Google, "Gallai moch hedfan"

[Talltim]

The Welsh better hurry up and get them before the American get all the stock! 

https://m.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/vivarail-d-train-to-be-tested-in-us-cities.html

Edited March 12, 2018 by Talltim

[Metr0Land]

The Welsh better hurry up and get them before the American get all the stock! 

https://m.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/vivarail-d-train-to-be-tested-in-us-cities.html

 

They might be able to take their time.  America yn gyntaf (America first)

[Coryton]

They might be able to take their time.  America yn gyntaf (America first)

 

In the US these would count as light rail.

 

I seem to recall something being tried with the LEV-1 or similar a while ago.

[melmerby]

In the US these would count as light rail.

 

 

Anything with less than 30T axle load would be "light rail" in the US!

 

Keith

[Edwin_m]

To answer a point from a couple of pages back, the D230s are shimmed to lift the body up off the bogies a bit, which solves a gauging problem at platform level. 

[rodent279]

I'm an old fart too, & I've never had the "joy" of a new car, nor wanted one, especially with today's models. I'll stick with my '04 Rover 75 thanks. I do all the maintenance myself, it has all the toys,built like a brick outhose, ultra reliable, there is nothing about that I'd rather have instead. Expensive to buy though, cost me £700 to buy 12 months ago.

 

Stewart

I'm not parting with my Morris Minor for the same reason.

Never wanted a new car either. Money down the drain.