First D-Trains ready for sale

[John_Miles]

Ex-NR track engineer thinks the maximum line speed in the Valleys is 70 or 75 mph.

[PatB]

No she didn't. But she was embarrassingly close to doing so.

 

I suspect it was the folk on modern sportsbikes that she passed who had the really red faces .

[Coryton]

I believe that on sections of the Valley lines, line speed is well above 60, especially south of Pontypridd and north of Radyr.

 

Hmmm.

 

I was thinking more in terms of not getting in the way of long distance trains as was being discussed...

 

I don't know if not being able to get above 60 the Valleys would affect capacity or just mean longer journeys. 

 

So where would a 60 mph limited train be useful then?

[Talltim]

On the underground ;-)

[admiles]

On the underground ;-)

 

Indeed. Totally the wrong tool for anywhere else I think.

[Talltim]

Longer journies can have knock on effects on more than just passenger travel time. For example it can reduce paths or mean that a clock-face timetable is not possible with the same amount of stock

[jim.snowdon]

Hmmm.

 

I was thinking more in terms of not getting in the way of long distance trains as was being discussed...

 

I don't know if not being able to get above 60 the Valleys would affect capacity or just mean longer journeys. 

 

So where would a 60 mph limited train be useful then?

What matters is not Line Speed, but average speed, in which an important factor is acceleration, especially if a train is making more than the occasional stop.

 

Jim

[Fat Controller]

Ex-NR track engineer thinks the maximum line speed in the Valleys is 70 or 75 mph.

That high? 

[Rivercider]

That high? 

I do not remember much high speed running from my travels up the Valleys in the 1980s, there must have been improvements since then.

 

I have a Sectional Appendix from 1986, and apart from a 4 mile stretch of 70mph between Radyr and Cathays,

there was nothing above 55mph, a lot of 50mph, and much of it less than that,

 

cheers 

[Fat Controller]

I do not remember much high speed running from my travels up the Valleys in the 1980s, there must have been improvements since then.

 

I have a Sectional Appendix from 1986, and apart from a 4 mile stretch of 70mph between Radyr and Cathays,

there was nothing above 55mph, a lot of 50mph, and much of it less than that,

 

cheers 

I've just had a cursory browse of the current Sectional Appendix. There is a short stretch of 70 mph restriction just north of Cardiff Queen Street, but the majority of the rest is in the range of 45 to 60 mph, largely towards the 50 mph mark, and much that has even greater restrictions. Even the SWML has very little above 70 mph, presumably due to the curves.

['CHARD]

Just to confirm, DfT explicitly barred 4-wheel passenger coaches from the Northern franchise bid.

 

The comment above about 'pure' branch lines is pretty much on the money - another element of the Northern bid was connecting places by pairing more services - one consequence being to require more main line running and mixing it with Class 1 services with their better performing trains.  As a result, only a few branches like Whitby could lend themselves to D-Train, and in that line's case, the heavy school traffic mitigated against use of the 230s.

[corneliuslundie]

But what was stated but seems to have been forgotten is that the Cardiff valleys need a lot of replacement trains in 2020 and there is likely to be very little available at that time except the Vivarail offering.

The Welsh Assembly wishes to see electrification of the Valleys lines but has no money and with the delays in other electrification projects there will be very little diesel stock coming off lease. Neither are there any spare electrification engineers. Ironically, there will be almost new EMUs from the SWT franchise but they are no use in Wales. Remember that Arriva had to reshuffle its services with its loco hauled set just to release one class 158 unit for the enhanced Cambrian lines service.

And unless I am much mistaken the Welsh Assembly was hoping for European Union funding.

There are suggestions of light rail in the Valleys including such pipe dreams as a Newport to Caerphilly service (pity there are houses in the way). However, it is also being suggesxted that there needs to be continuing provision for heavy rail on current and mothballed freight routes.

Nothing is coming from the potential bidders for the franchise because for some strange reason they are apparently sworn to secrecy (I may have that wrong).

But my reckoning is that come 2020 it will be the class 230s or no trains, and I suspect that the latter option would not be popular

BTW, I spotted an Arriva bus in Tirana yesterday. Should anything be read into this?

Jonathan

[Coryton]

coming off lease. Neither are there any spare electrification engineers. Ironically, there will be almost new EMUs from the SWT franchise but they are no use in Wales. Remember 

 

Convert them to DEMUS?

 

But my reckoning is that come 2020 it will be the class 230s or no trains, and I suspect that the latter option would not be popular

 

Hmmm.

 

There should be quite a few spare HSTs around soon. Just the thing for the Valleys, I would have thought.

 

(NOT a serious suggestion of course, though there might be re-shuffles of stock that would make sense, though probably impossible to arrange as it would require changes to franchises already awarded).

[melmerby]

BTW, I spotted an Arriva bus in Tirana yesterday. Should anything be read into this?

Jonathan

Arriva are owned by DB and has operations in many countries.

 

Keith

[Butler Henderson]

On the subject of refurbishment its increasingly common in the bus industry - here (link to flickr photo) is the interior of the "revitalised" buses  Transdev are using between Harrogate and Knaresborough - they are 10 to 13 years old and now have their age disguised by having cherished plates. At the end of the day the travelling public are more interested in the interior than the chassis etc and renewed seats and hand grips along with wifi, usb charging, and next stop displays and announcements tick all the right  boxes. In comparison Northerns offering on the parallel train service is best overlooked. Of course the big difference is that the buses are for a service that is commercially operated and expected to be so for a long time by its operator whereas any train refurbishment is for a short term franchise and hence there may not be incentive to spend more than the basic needs. Faced with a trip to Manchester find it slightly amusing that I can go all the way by bus with free Wi-Fi on offer while Northern merely offer it at stations.

[ColinK]

If the Valley lines trains are very busy, the commuters could get together and buy a D train. Then we would have the first 12" to the foot crowdfunded train.

[Coryton]

On the subject of refurbishment its increasingly common in the bus industry - here (link to flickr photo) is the interior of the "revitalised" buses  Transdev are using between Harrogate and Knaresborough - they are 10 to 13 years old and now have their age disguised by having cherished plates. At the end of the day the travelling public are more interested in the interior than the chassis etc and renewed seats and hand grips along with wifi, usb charging, and next stop displays and announcements tick all the right  boxes. In comparison Northerns offering on the parallel train service is best overlooked. Of course the big difference is that the buses are for a service that is commercially operated and expected to be so for a long time by its operator whereas any train refurbishment is for a short term franchise and hence there may not be incentive to spend more than the basic needs. Faced with a trip to Manchester find it slightly amusing that I can go all the way by bus with free Wi-Fi on offer while Northern merely offer it at stations.

 

And so long as the age doesn't mean they are unreliable, why should they? (Apart I suppose from the fact that they will have worse emissions than a newer bus).

 

I don't know how important it is to hide the age by using Northern Irish number plates or similar - while most people know how to tell the age of a road vehicle from the number plate, how many people actually look at the number plate of the bus they get on?

[Butler Henderson]

And so long as the age doesn't mean they are unreliable, why should they? (Apart I suppose from the fact that they will have worse emissions than a newer bus).

 

Missed that, they have had low emission technology installed as well.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I don't know how important it is to hide the age by using Northern Irish number plates or similar - while most people know how to tell the age of a road vehicle from the number plate, how many people actually look at the number plate of the bus they get on?

 

Haven't they got NI number plates because they're built in Belfast?

[Fat Controller]

Haven't they got NI number plates because they're built in Belfast?

No; it's because of the much stricter testing regime in Northern Ireland. Since the early 1970s, the UK Government has directly controlled MoT testing stations in Ulster for both private and commercial vehicles in an attempt to deprive the paramilitaries of both Republican and Unionist persuasions of a useful revenue stream. When vehicles fail the test, it is common practise to sell them on the UK mainland.

[Coryton]

Missed that, they have had low emission technology installed as well.

 

In which case it's hard to see what would have been gained by replacing them with new vehicles.

 

By the way - the bus in the flickr photos very clearly has 2007 number plates. Maybe they've been changed now.

 

But we are straying somewhat off-topic here.

 

To get back at least to trains, Pacers must have the oldest bus bodies in general revenue service in the UK.

 

I think the idea was that the bodies would be replaced at some stage as the chassis was supposed to last longer. But they still seem to be doing OK 30 years on.

[Coryton]

No; it's because of the much stricter testing regime in Northern Ireland. Since the early 1970s, the UK Government has directly controlled MoT testing stations in Ulster for both private and commercial vehicles in an attempt to deprive the paramilitaries of both Republican and Unionist persuasions of a useful revenue stream. When vehicles fail the test, it is common practise to sell them on the UK mainland.

 

I always assumed that touring coaches were given NI numberplates to hide their age....

[melmerby]

I always assumed that touring coaches were given NI numberplates to hide their age....

Quite a lot of coach operators use "cherished" plates or NI plates which they transfer from vehicle to vehicle as the fleet is renewed.

Just because it has a non-date plate it doesn't mean it's old!

 

BTW "LTZ" which is on Borismasters was specially issued for London buses but should be a NI plate (Belfast)

 

Keith

Edited June 12, 2017 by melmerby

[Neil]

Convert them to DEMUS?

 

 

Hmmm.

 

There should be quite a few spare HSTs around soon. Just the thing for the Valleys, I would have thought.

 

(NOT a serious suggestion of course, though there might be re-shuffles of stock that would make sense, though probably impossible to arrange as it would require changes to franchises already awarded).

 

Cascaded HSTs not such a silly idea; they've been to Aberystwyth in the past so cascading onto the Aber - Birmingham International might bring some advantages to what is normally a long, noisey and crowded journey in a 158. Ex - Cambrian 158s to the valley lines, job done.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Neil

[eastwestdivide]

...I think the idea was that the bodies would be replaced at some stage as the chassis was supposed to last longer. But they still seem to be doing OK 30 years on.

 - for certain values of "OK". I've seen quite a few leaks on Northern's 142s in rainy weather, through the roof and round the windows. I've even had to warn a fellow passenger in the seat in front that the water running down the inside of the window was fast approaching their shoulder. The 144s seem to have fared better. 

Back to the D-trains, they always looked like they were going to be a bit of a niche product to me.