Imaginary Railways

[2E Sub Shed]

 

17 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

@2E Sub Shed and @KeithHC have both won a free C & T Harris' Extra Large Pork Pie, which can be collected from their factory shop in Calne.

 

Alas the Wiltshire Gazette and Herald has a photo of the damage inflicted on Messers Harris's premises, which has ceased production.

 

Link to photo

 

[KeithMacdonald]

More regarding the Farthing layout and the "North & South Railway" line from Swindon to Salisbury. 

 

I have two options, and two ways to respond.

 

1) apply "careful ignoral" and artfully claim their northern section (Woodborough to Swindon) "must" have gone from near Pewsey and joined the M&SWJR near Savernake. Based on no evidence at all and wishful thinking.

or

2) acknowledge the possibility of another route out of the Pewsey Vale to Swindon, probably via Avebury.

 

Which option would you go for? 🤔

Option 2 sounds more interesting to me. 🙂

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Acknowledgements to RailMapOnline.

 

Here in red is my version of part of the Farthings "North & South Railway" line from Swindon to Salisbury. It emerges from the Avon river valley in the south. Then it passes through Upavon and Rushall, one or both of which would have deserved a station? Then it forms a new junction with the GWR line at Woodborough, that would surely demand an enlarged station there? After that, going north west the climb diagonally up the escarpment on the north side of Pwesey Vale, to loop around Bishops Cannings. Then north-east to run parallel to the Devizes road into Beckhampton and then into Avebury Trusloe.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

We return now to the CCF Hut at Marlborough College, just after the remains of Mrs. Miggins' slap-up luncheon have been cleared from the table.

 

The surveyors, spurred on by the suggestions of Major @The Johnster, have prepared an excellent route for us, down the Kennet valley from Marlborough to Hungerford, via Axford and Ramsbury.

 

They have provided two plans for the section from Marlborough to Axford. This, as Major Johnster, wisely suggested, depends a great deal on the volume of traffic we may anticipate, and we should allow provisions for expansion, in due course, in the fullness of time, and as the need arises.

 

The minimal option is to join the existing line just west of the existing station, on the approach from Avebury, and then diverge from it again, just east of the station.

 

 

Yes, gentlemen, I hear your murmurs, and clearly you can anticipate the operational limitations such an option would render. We would indeed, be limited by the capacity of the existing station, and any traffic through there. Especially when these were local passenger or goods train, static or stationary in the, err, station. Vital war efforts could be impeded!

 

[KeithMacdonald]

For that very reason, here is the preferred option.

 

 

(Murmurs of approval)

 

By adopting a lower route, between the river and the existing station, we will avoid those potential bottlenecks. But still have sufficient space to access the M&SWJR when necessary. For example, when we need to route traffic to the new munitions dumps in the Savernake Forest, just south of Marlborough. Oh don't forget, those are Top Secret locations, gentlemen! The surveyors report that the M&SWJR's elevated section and bridge across the river near Barnfield means that we can go under that section, beside the river, with no trouble at all. We may have to demolish a few Council Houses just here (pointing at St.Margarets on the map) but alternative accomodation will, of course, be provided.

 

[KeithMacdonald]

(Assistant tugs at presenter's sleeve)

 

Ah, gentlemen, I've just been handed a note, I'm told it's a prepared statement from the War Cabinet, and I've been instructed to release it to the local newspapers.

 

Quote

31st February, 1940
Under the powers invested in the relevant Authorities by the current State Of Emergency, a Compulsory Purchase Order will be made on specific land and locations within the Parishes of Manton, Preshute, and Marlborough. Further works by the Ministry of Labour (with the Schedule of Reserved Occupations) will involve Compulsory Purchase Orders of land within the Parishes of Axford, Ramsbury, Chilton Foliat and Hungerford. A schedule of works follows...

 

Well, there we have it - I suppose we have to deal with this kind of red tape; much simpler if we just evict the locals and run a bulldozer through, what? But a State Of Emergency is a jolly useful thing for getting things done pretty damn jildy without all the usual enquiries, planning permission and petty delays. Don't they know there's a war on?

 

[whart57]

For a bit of relief from things Western I offer another imaginary railway, a short one in London's Docklands. In the nineteenth century London's docks spread along the Thames, mostly on the Essex side. Development on the Kent side was restrained a bit by the presence of Greenwich Observatory. However by the 1860s businesses were springing up along the Thames along the peninsula of Blackwall Point. These were the upcoming "new industries" of chemicals and telegraphy. So I imagine the SER, which had run its North Kent Line around Greenwich to avoid Admiralty opposition, to have built a branch out to Blackwall Point where a ferry connected it with the GER's Blackwall terminus on the London and Blackwall Railway. The map, based on an 1870s map from that well known Scottish source, shows what I mean.

 

 

The junction with the North Kent line actually existed as part of the Angerstein's Wharf goods only branch. I've given the line an intermediate station of Greenwich North as well as indicating potential private sidings.

 

[whart57]

The Blackwall Point backstory was applied to a small 50 inch by 50cm layout I started building for the 3mm Society's 50th Anniversary in 2015. Family difficulties meant I never finished it, but I include the trackplan here.

 

 

Very much a minimum space "bitsa station" design. The points were B6 geometry as at the time we were experimenting with etched brass and laser cut ply point kits and one of the purposes of this layout was to be a test bed for that. (Wayne Kinney's point kits have come along to rescue us all from that clunky kit method). However the resulting points did look good - 3mm Society cosmetic chairs needed too - and were very smooth running. I did take a picture or two

 

 

I also made a small 1:5 scale mock up, which I photographed.

 

 

Operation would have been a bit nightmarish, these micro-layouts always are, but the challenge was to have a complete layout within the confines of 50" by 50cm - the 50 being important given it was a 50th anniversary. Unusually the gauge was 13.5mm, again this was to be a test bed for suitability of that gauge. I re-gauged an SECR O class I'd built to 12mm gauge with new wheelsets and intended to do the same with an SECR railcar. I'd also widened the wheelsets on half a dozen wagons from 12mm gauge. This is not the place to go into the merits or not of 13.5mm gauge over 14.2mm gauge, just accept, dear reader, that it seemed a good idea at the time.

 

When regauging the O class I did build a new tender chassis, one with split frame electrical pickup. It made the loco a much better slow runner for shunting purposes.

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by whart57

[Northmoor]

8 hours ago, whart57 said:

For a bit of relief from things Western I offer another imaginary railway, a short one in London's Docklands. In the nineteenth century London's docks spread along the Thames, mostly on the Essex side. Development on the Kent side was restrained a bit by the presence of Greenwich Observatory. However by the 1860s businesses were springing up along the Thames along the peninsula of Blackwall Point. These were the upcoming "new industries" of chemicals and telegraphy. So I imagine the SER, which had run its North Kent Line around Greenwich to avoid Admiralty opposition, to have built a branch out to Blackwall Point where a ferry connected it with the GER's Blackwall terminus on the London and Blackwall Railway. The map, based on an 1870s map from that well known Scottish source, shows what I mean.

 

 

The junction with the North Kent line actually existed as part of the Angerstein's Wharf goods only branch. I've given the line an intermediate station of Greenwich North as well as indicating potential private sidings.

 

I'd imagined something very similar on the North Greenwich peninsula when based at an office there up to a few years ago.

 

My "North Greenwich" branch was to be a TOPS-transition era branch with freight serving the former gas works - that's the one on the East side of the line - and the small container terminal on the river which was at about the Westernmost point on the peninsula.  You can visualise a rundown station (perhaps just one platform surviving from an original three) like much of the North London line was until the late 80s, with peak-hours-only and sparsely-patronised 2/4-EPB shuttle from London Bridge.

[whart57]

1 minute ago, Northmoor said:

I'd imagined something very similar on the North Greenwich peninsula when based at an office there up to a few years ago.

 

My "North Greenwich" branch was to be a TOPS-transition era branch with freight serving the former gas works - that's the one on the East side of the line - and the small container terminal on the river which was at about the Westernmost point on the peninsula.  You can visualise a rundown station (perhaps just one platform surviving from an original three) like much of the North London line was until the late 80s, with peak-hours-only and sparsely-patronised 2/4-EPB shuttle from London Bridge.

 

What I would really liked to have done is build some Cudworth well tanks, outside framed, open cabs, and have them pulling ancient four wheelers, the thirds with tiny windows and outside framing, the firsts with curved quarterlights like the old stage coaches, and of course birdcage brakes. I've always liked the 0-4-2Ts built by Slaughter-Gruning (lovely name for a loco builder) and the version - built at Ashford - with smaller 5' diameter drivers was used in the mid 1800s for local goods work in the London area. I think it would need to be done in 7mm scale to give that Victorian rolling stock justice.

[KeithMacdonald]

Righteo chaps, gather round. Can someone just check the students have all left? And make sure the blinds on the windows are closed? Excellent. Now, pay attention chaps. Before we carry on with the basic route – and so we don’t forget - I just wanted to repeat some important remarks from Major Johnster.

 

Point 1

 

On 31/08/2023 at 00:49, The Johnster said:

The passing loops will need to be capable of handling 'full length' 60-wagon trains for war traffic, and the route, though single line, will need to be contructed for the GWR's 'red' route availability. 

 

Point 2

 

On 31/08/2023 at 00:49, The Johnster said:

Such a route will have useful diversionary capabilities for both the GWML and the WoEML, further reason to make it capable of handling the heaviest locomotives, such as KIngs and 47xx.  I would suggest arranging for the passing loops to be signalled for use bi-directionally, and one loop laid out in each case for fast through running with automatic token exchange equipment.  I would strongly reccomend building the formation to be capable of carrying double track throughout should this be required in future. 

 

Now, these are vitally important points, of top importance. I don't want to hear any poo-poo'ing about the importance of these points! We must never forget what General Melchett told us about poo-poo-ers! As soon as we've finished covering the survey of the basic route, it's time for you infrastructure chappies to pipe up and tell us what we need at each and every station. So get prepared. The next slide will be a good example.

 

Now, I'm sure we all find the constant nagging about "Top Secret" rather tiresome, so bear with me chaps, because here comes another one. This one is courtesy of the Brylcream Boys, a new airfield near Ramsbury. They've given a special aerial photograph of the airfield under construction, overlaid on the OS map. Obviously, we will need a special station here at Ramsbury, capable of not only holding 60-wagon trains (as mentioned by the Major), but also sidings for supplies and equipment for the airfield.

 

Looking forward to your suggestions on that.

 

 

 

What's that? Ah excellent, Mrs Miggins has arrived with afternoon tea and cake. Perfect timing. A short break gentlemen?

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

While we’re enjoying the cake, have a look at the next slide. This is the section from Ramsbury to Chilton Foliat. I’m sure the eagle-eyed historians amongst us will already have spotted the Roman Villa at Littlecote. Which is, I am assured, an especially fine example, with an esoteric temple that may be Mithraic. We might not be Romans, but we’re not Philistines either, so the route is carefully angled to give that good clearance.

 

Shall we just pencil Chilton Foliat in for a small Halt station?

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Us old duffers are only too grateful to be given a chance to assist with the war effort, sir, and it saves us being called upon to do anything risky!  Not quite got the reactions or cool nerves one had when one was a subaltern at Mafeking, don't y'know.  Stiff upper lips and all that; after all we're British, dammit Carruthers.  Soon have that bounder Shickelgruber on the run, what?

 

However, and not wishing to inject a defeatist tone into the discussion, it's still only 1940, so that bounder Shickelgruber is not out of the reckoning yet and could still invade.  Why can't he just s*d orff and bother the Ruskies or something?  Anyway, given that an invasion may well still be on the cards, it might be worth considering that the east-west alignment of this new railway makes it ideal for use as a line of defence, should one be needed, and it might be worth considering this in the course of the construction.  I suggest gentle slopes for the embankments and cuttings on the north side of the line, and steep slopes or vertical walls on the southern side.  Offa's Dyke on the Welsh border illustrates the principle.

 

Bridges crossing the railway should be wider on the northern side, to allow defending forces easier access to the enemy, and narrower on the southern, to deny this facility to the enemy.

 

Mrs Miggins has asked me to convey her thanks to those who returned the empty cups to the tray by the door as instructed; I am too much of a gentleman to repeat her comments about those who neglected to do so.  She has also reminded me that raffle tickets for her WI group's annual prize draw are available, first prize a pot of home made jam without the jam, there's a war on you know, second prize the sheet music for 'Jerusalem'.  Third prize is a powdered egg. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[KeithMacdonald]

A strirring comment Major! We remain grateful for your gallant resilience and much-valued experience. It gives me great pleasure to say you will be the Guest of Honour at dinner in the mess hall this evening (quiet aside to assistant: Have we got enough gin and single malt?).

 

Before we break for the day, here is the last slide, of the final section from Chilton Foliat to Hungerford. As you can see, it joins just east of Hungerford station.

 

 

I'm sure there's lots to discuss, so, gentlemen, would you do me the honour of attending the Festive Board this evening?

 

 

[The Johnster]

3 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

It gives me great pleasure to say you will be the Guest of Honour at dinner in the mess hall this evening

 

I will be honoured and delighted to attend!

[Flying Fox 34F]

Sir,

 

In light of the RAF’s activities, they’ll be a requirement for a Fuel Depot in the vicinity. 

Paul

[KeithMacdonald]

Diary Entry. : 07:00 32nd February, 1940

 

Still in Marlborough with the working party on the design of the new Calne to Hungerford railway line. Excellent progress yesterday, with agreement on the route.

 

The mess hall is unusually deserted this morning. That might be related to the number of empty bottles visible outside by the tradesmen’s entrance. No sign of Mrs Miggins yet either. Which is rather disappointing, I was looking forward to a good healthy Full Wiltshire Breakfast. The menu says “Pork sausages, back bacon, fried eggs, grilled tomatoes, mushrooms cooked in butter, with fried bread” (Fried in lard I hope).

 

While serving dinner last night, Mrs Miggins had clearly had a good few “chef’s tonics” of gin. In a rather giggly manner she mentioned she mustn’t forget to go and fetch the bacon for breakfast. She said it comes from a Mr Terence Todd, a specialist butcher in Marlborough High Street. She then said something else about “Young Mr Terence carrying on the family tradition from his father Mr Sweeney who was a barber in London”. I have to say that didn’t make much sense to me, I’m not sure I heard her correctly, I expect I misheard. But her bacon is quite delicious and unusually well-cured.

 

Expecting to start work on the Station Plans today, after the gentlemen do make an appearance! We might need to clear their heads a bit (before breakfast). A little light PT will do the trick, I will organise a short five mile run over the Marlborough Downs, probably up to the Charles Sorley memorial. The chaps like to stop there for a moment, to salute and pay our respects.  We can combine that with a look at a few sources of Sarsen Stones for bridge and station foundations. Looking forward to Major Johnster’s suggestions for the station layout and designs. Will need to follow-up FF-34F’s ideas about an aviation fuel depot in Ramsbury.

 

[whart57]

21 hours ago, Northmoor said:

My "North Greenwich" branch was to be a TOPS-transition era branch with freight serving the former gas works - that's the one on the East side of the line - and the small container terminal on the river which was at about the Westernmost point on the peninsula.  You can visualise a rundown station (perhaps just one platform surviving from an original three) like much of the North London line was until the late 80s, with peak-hours-only and sparsely-patronised 2/4-EPB shuttle from London Bridge.

 

My thinking was along similar lines, after a century in which small SER tanks gave way to SECR railcars and then autocoaches either side of a P class. Probably push-pull trains in the Southern steam era until the North Kent line was electrified and Blackwall Point given the third rail.

 

Everything running down with closure seeming imminent until some cheesy grin in Downing Street decides to build a national cultural venue next to Blackwall Point station. Saved by the O2!

[John B]

On 27/08/2023 at 11:04, sir douglas said:

 

Since then (above) ive settle the gauge to 3ft as i really like the look of Ravenglass, Southwold, Isle of Man and Malta (metre), there should also be a halt for the Strid but i still cant decide on the name of the the Southern 2 stations, with the Midland already taking the name, i was thinking of Bolton Bridge for the terminus and Bolton Priory for the next up.

 

My current track plan for Bolton Bridge, the track plan is arranged for shunting and arranging of mixed trains

 

 

My co-conspirator in the West of Scotland 4mm Group, our Chairman John Stocks, has modelled his take on the Kettlewell idea in P4, set firmly in Midland Railway days. The terminus, Kettlewell, will be on show at the Stafford show on 23rd / 24th September this year and at Model Rail Scotland next February. His next exhibition layout, currently taking shape, is Conistone, your next stop down the line to Bolton Abbey...

 

[sir douglas]

I know of it, ive seen it once

[Mikkel]

On 01/09/2023 at 00:31, KeithMacdonald said:

Acknowledgements to RailMapOnline.

 

Here in red is my version of part of the Farthings "North & South Railway" line from Swindon to Salisbury. It emerges from the Avon river valley in the south. Then it passes through Upavon and Rushall, one or both of which would have deserved a station? Then it forms a new junction with the GWR line at Woodborough, that would surely demand an enlarged station there? After that, going north west the climb diagonally up the escarpment on the north side of Pwesey Vale, to loop around Bishops Cannings. Then north-east to run parallel to the Devizes road into Beckhampton and then into Avebury Trusloe.

 

 

Coming late to this, but what an impressive history of the Calne to Marlborough line!

 

And thank you for taking the Farthing lines into consideration - more than they deserve I think. I have indeed thought that Farthing must be somewhere around Woodborough, and here we have the evidence - thank you! (There is the slight problem of why Farthing has embankments in this very flat terrain, a hard nut to crack - which is why the exact location has remained hazy 🙂).

 

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

thank you for taking the Farthing lines into consideration

 

It was a pleasure. 🙂

 

There is one glaring loose end still to attend to. That is, how a "North & South Railway" line heading from south-west to north-east through Avebury will comfortably coexist with the Calne & Hungerford line heading from north-west to south-east through Avebury, If each follows the "best" and easiest route for their own individual cases, they would cross at right-angles. At the moment, X marks the spot. Both routes will need some kind of dog-leg, so they can share the same station in Avebury Trusloe without conflicting paths.

 

I will mull this over, while I'm mulling some special-brew Wiltshire Special Reserver Single-Malt Cider, and get the Station Planners to report back ASAP with the full portfolio of station track plans.

[Northroader]

They would merge together at the side of the infant Kennet, south of Windmill Hill, cross the lane linking the two Aveburys, through a station, then diverge after a level crossing over the main road, yours swinging round east with the Kennet past the long barrow, Mikkels on down by Silbury Hill, all highly prehistoric.

[Flying Pig]

On 31/08/2023 at 22:31, KeithMacdonald said:

Acknowledgements to RailMapOnline.

 

Here in red is my version of part of the Farthings "North & South Railway" line from Swindon to Salisbury. It emerges from the Avon river valley in the south. Then it passes through Upavon and Rushall, one or both of which would have deserved a station? Then it forms a new junction with the GWR line at Woodborough, that would surely demand an enlarged station there? After that, going north west the climb diagonally up the escarpment on the north side of Pwesey Vale, to loop around Bishops Cannings. Then north-east to run parallel to the Devizes road into Beckhampton and then into Avebury Trusloe.

 

 

I look forward to seeing how Wroughton Bank is engineered.  Perhaps a section of rack railway?

 

As to Avebury, the Victorians would surely approach right through West Kennet long barrow and build the junction station in the middle of the stone circle.  The Red Lion could live on as the station hotel and they might spare the church, but I doubt there'd be much left for the National Trust.

[KeithMacdonald]

43 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

As to Avebury, the Victorians would surely approach right through West Kennet long barrow and build the junction station in the middle of the stone circle.  The Red Lion could live on as the station hotel and they might spare the church, but I doubt there'd be much left for the National Trust.

 

Perhaps with dynamite to speed up the process? To clear the site of all those rough old stones littering the place and making it untidy. With the remnants used as infill for embankments.

 

I was pondering something very similar for the Imaginary North & South Wiltshire Railway (N&SWR, Swindon to Salisbury). For the part meandering down the Avon Valley, at some point going close to Woodhenge and Durrington Walls. Would the almighty GWR have put a track straight through the middle of a couple of the biggest Ancient Monuments in Britain? For now I'm assuming a N&SWR route on the east of the river. More to come on a North & South Wiltshire Railway in a separate thread. 🙂