Manning Wardle L Class 0-6-0 (Agenoria Kit)

[doilum]

In some ways that's a pity. Whilst the 1/8 wheels were not self quartering, the smaller axle would have facilitated the use of one of the multistage gearboxes intended for 4mm locos.

The choice of motor will dictate how you approach every thing else and needs to be an early decision.

Are the wheels a correct Manning Wardle pattern with twin crankpin bosses?

Have you access to some scrap lead? This little loco needs every gramme you can squeeze in. Back in a less health conscious day, I cast a weight to fill the boiler tube.

The coupling rods look like an excellent start.

Just had a proper look at Bamburghs wheels.

Some clever balance weights will do the trick. Correct 10 spoke wheels needed.

Don't forget to check buffer height which should appear "normal" with the larger wheels.

MRJ issue 8 is the best resource.

[sir douglas]

slaters 3ft MW wheels have 1/8th axle

[jdb82]

I'm not sure that "Oh bother" quite covers this one.....

 

 

Whilst opening out the hole in the coupling rod to accept the Slater's crankpin bush, a momentary lapse in concentration allowed the broach to snag the metal, which then twisted. A lot. . 

 

Plan of action: Step away from the bench for a while!

Then once the blue mist has settled, see if it can be straightened out with pliers, vice and anything else then I can find to perform magic with.... If that fails, I think I'll be making a new rod from scratch, using one of the straight ones as a template. 'twill be good experience of scratch building if nothing else!

This is where my location rears it's head again. I do not have a sheet of nickel silver to craft a new rod from. If I was back home, I could order a sheet of nickel silver and it would arrive in a couple of days. Here, unless I butcher a spare nickel silver chassis frame which I had earmarked for another project in the future, I only have a sheet of brass, which is not ideal for the strength needed for a coupling rod. 

 

@N15Class.....you've just straightened out a pretty large dent - this must be a walk in the park in comparison - right?

[N15class]

It should straighten out ok but and it is a very big BUT it will probably or will grow longer. So the hard part is adjusting this and the other side to be the same length.

 

One way to do it is to get a larger diameter nickle rod and increase the hole size to a good fit. solder in place and smooth off. Then using the good one mark and redrill in the right place. By using the a larger blank in the hole it will not twist or the drill is less likely to wander back into the old hole.

Edited April 19, 2018 by N15class

[N15class]

Just a thought looking at the burr thrown up by your broach I would be tempted to hone it a diamond sharpening stone or an oil stone if no diamond one. It is not cutting more pushing the metal out of the way.

[doilum]

I'm not sure that "Oh bother" quite covers this one.....

 

IMG_7877.JPG

 

Whilst opening out the hole in the coupling rod to accept the Slater's crankpin bush, a momentary lapse in concentration allowed the broach to snag the metal, which then twisted. A lot. ######. 

 

Plan of action: Step away from the bench for a while!

Then once the blue mist has settled, see if it can be straightened out with pliers, vice and anything else then I can find to perform magic with.... If that fails, I think I'll be making a new rod from scratch, using one of the straight ones as a template. 'twill be good experience of scratch building if nothing else!

This is where my location rears it's head again. I do not have a sheet of nickel silver to craft a new rod from. If I was back home, I could order a sheet of nickel silver and it would arrive in a couple of days. Here, unless I butcher a spare nickel silver chassis frame which I had earmarked for another project in the future, I only have a sheet of brass, which is not ideal for the strength needed for a coupling rod. 

 

@N15Class.....you've just straightened out a pretty large dent - this must be a walk in the park in comparison - right?

Isn't there enough scrap n/s on the fret?

Hammer it out. Iff it grows, slim down the simple end with a dremel or file and solder soome scrap across the hole. Use the other rod as a guide and drill a 1mm hole as a new centre.

Personally, I prefer the non engineers method of a high speed drill, but cannot pretend that I haven't done exactly the same thing once or twice or.......

[jdb82]

It should straighten out ok but and it is a very big BUT it will probably or will grow longer. So the hard part is adjusting this and the other side to be the same length.

 

One way to do it is to get a larger diameter nickle rod and increase the hole size to a good fit. solder in place and smooth off. Then using the good one mark and redrill in the right place. By using the a larger blank in the hole it will not twist or the drill is less likely to wander back into the old hole.

 

Good plan, thanks for the tip. As the front layer of the laminate is half etched, this part has creased a little. I have unsoldered the layers to enable me to get to the crease line - I'll attack it with a hammer in the next couple of days to see what I can straighten. Good point about this lengthening the rod though - I hadn't thought of that.

 

Isn't there enough scrap n/s on the fret?

Hammer it out. Iff it grows, slim down the simple end with a dremel or file and solder soome scrap across the hole. Use the other rod as a guide and drill a 1mm hole as a new centre.

Personally, I prefer the non engineers method of a high speed drill, but cannot pretend that I haven't done exactly the same thing once or twice or.......

 

I'll check when I get, back, but the frets are pretty tightly packed - there might be enough just below the chassis frames, but looking at it from this photo, it'll be tight. Good to know I'm not the only one to have done this!

 

[jdb82]

Spent a while yesterday straightening out the coupling rods. First, I unsoldered the laminates - as part of the front laminate is half-etched, it creased when everything twisted. A combination of pliers, vice and a small hammer largely straightened things out. Thought it best to finish opening out the holes whilst they were still in separate layers, as it's easier for the broach to cut. This proved tricky though, as the right hand end of the top layer, which was thinner anyway where it joins onto the half-etched part of the rod, was very weak due to the bending back and forth. 

 

 

Once I was satisfied the repairs were as good as they were going to get (and as the closeup shows, they're not perfect), I soldered the layers back together again.

 

 

Using the good coupling rods, I set up the chassis jig. Then I tried sliding the repaired rods on, and as was alluded to by N15class, discovered the rod had become longer as the metal has stretched in the twisting and subsequent attack with the hammer. It wasn't an enormous growth, but enough for it not to fir onto the jig. For now, I have just opened up the hole some more to allow it to fit - time will tell if this has introduced too much slop to allow the chassis to run smoothly once it's up and running. If so, I shall follow doilum's sound advice and fill & re-drill the hole in the correct place.

Edited April 22, 2018 by jdb82

[jdb82]

And all soldered up. You can clearly see the size difference of the crank pin holes in the lower rod, right hand end

 

[doilum]

Good work. Your skills portfolio will have benefited from the experience. There are some skillful souls who would turn a custom crankpin bush........

I think you might just get away with it as is.

If you just happened to have a length of thin wall tube of exactly the right bore, you could open the oversize hole alittle more and sleeve it back to the correct size. This might require a simple jig.

[jdb82]

Good work. Your skills portfolio will have benefited from the experience. There are some skillful souls who would turn a custom crankpin bush........

I think you might just get away with it as is.

If you just happened to have a length of thin wall tube of exactly the right bore, you could open the oversize hole alittle more and sleeve it back to the correct size. This might require a simple jig.

 

 

One day, turning a bush will be an option.....just need a lathe first ;-) 

I'll build up the chassis and see where we're at. If more surgery is needed, then as you say, it's good for the skills portfolio!

[doilum]

One day, turning a bush will be an option.....just need a lathe first ;-) 

I'll build up the chassis and see where we're at. If more surgery is needed, then as you say, it's good for the skills portfolio!

Don't know if you have any, but I like to assemble the frames using threaded brass spacers through the plunger pick up holes. This gives a head up on any problems.

In any case, plunger pickups are best drilled for whilst the frames are still flat.

I put one wheel on an axle and locate it in it's bush in the frame. Then scribe round the outside of the rim. A pencil line shows the inside. The trick is to locate the hole exactly between them. I mark the spot with my drop rivet tool and pilot drill 1mm. This then opened up to the size that allows the bush to be firmly located but not squeezed.

The MW is a particular challenge because of the skimpy frames. You may consider soldering a bit of scrap n/s behind the wheels to mount the pickups.

The Bamborough featured in Model Railways in the late '70s used split frames,but that is another story.

[jdb82]

Don't know if you have any, but I like to assemble the frames using threaded brass spacers through the plunger pick up holes. This gives a head up on any problems.

In any case, plunger pickups are best drilled for whilst the frames are still flat.

I put one wheel on an axle and locate it in it's bush in the frame. Then scribe round the outside of the rim. A pencil line shows the inside. The trick is to locate the hole exactly between them. I mark the spot with my drop rivet tool and pilot drill 1mm. This then opened up to the size that allows the bush to be firmly located but not squeezed.

The MW is a particular challenge because of the skimpy frames. You may consider soldering a bit of scrap n/s behind the wheels to mount the pickups.

The Bamborough featured in Model Railways in the late '70s used split frames,but that is another story.

 

 

I'm holding off on the pickup method decision for the minute. I like the idea of experimenting with plungers, as I haven't used them before, but I wasn't organised enough to bring any back out with me when I went home last. I have a few other bits I want, so I shall add them to my list to be delivered to my parents, and then get my parents to send a box of bits my way. I think I shall already have the chassis made up by then though, so any holes will need to be drilled with the frames made up. Not ideal, but hey ho. Turns out that planning ahead is a good thing to do before starting! Who'd have thought......

[doilum]

I'm holding off on the pickup method decision for the minute. I like the idea of experimenting with plungers, as I haven't used them before, but I wasn't organised enough to bring any back out with me when I went home last. I have a few other bits I want, so I shall add them to my list to be delivered to my parents, and then get my parents to send a box of bits my way. I think I shall already have the chassis made up by then though, so any holes will need to be drilled with the frames made up. Not ideal, but hey ho. Turns out that planning ahead is a good thing to do before starting! Who'd have thought......

Any ideas on the motor / gears?

[jdb82]

Any ideas on the motor / gears?

 

I have 2 options sitting in the drawer: a Slaters pre-assembled 38:1 with Mashima (a smallish one, the same as I used in the Hudswell Clarke) motor, or an1833 mashima with 40:1 Gateneal fold-up gearbox. I like the idea of the extra beef of the 1833, but not sure if it will fit yet. The Slaters unit is smooth, but I'm concerned about the small size of the motor once the loco is attached to a train of wagons. That being said, there's no prospect of the loco actually running on anything as yet; a layout seems a long way off!

 

I have a drawing of the loco (not of the kit) which I have resized to 7mm scale. I'll superimpose the motor/gearbox combinations onto it and see which one fits. That's always assuming the kit has followed the prototype's dimensions! Should give me a rough idea at least. 

[doilum]

To be fair, this prototype is unlikely to see huge trains. Weight and traction are more important than the grunt of the motor. Top priority is to try and maintain as much daylight as possible under the boiler. The size and position of the gearbox will dictate the plunger pickup locations so a synoptic approach is essential.

A plastikard dummy chassis may prove useful and I would advise assembling the superstructure parts as a series of modules to allow trial fitting prior to the inevitable califudging.

[jdb82]

With the troublesome rods left to one side for now (cross that bridge when I get to it comes to mind!), attention has turned to the chassis frames. Parts have been cut out, de-burred and cleaned up before work today, ready to solder up this evening.

 

[doilum]

With the troublesome rods left to one side for now (cross that bridge when I get to it comes to mind!), attention has turned to the chassis frames. Parts have been cut out, de-burred and cleaned up before work today, ready to solder up this evening.

 

IMG_7888.JPG

You have far more "meat" on the frames than my K class.

I would still drill the pilot holes for plunger pickups. At 1mm they will hardly show / be easily filled with solder, should you decide against them. My choice would be: ahead of first and middle axle and behind rear. The choice of gearbox may preclude their use or require the gear mount to be slimmed down.

Given the size of the enclosed cab on Bamborough / Cawood, you might consider the partial sacrifice of the firebox door area. This will allow you to drive the rear axle with a 1622 type motor in the firebox. Strategically placed crew occupy the door openings and screen the view.

[doilum]

If budget is not a problem, look on the abc gears website. One of their 3 stage transmissions might get a modest cylindrical motor inside the boiler. They have a page of scaleable templates.

I have only used their larger offerings with a Canon 1833 in my Hunslet Austerities and WD austerity, they are superb.

The K class uses the coreless motor and multistage gearbox supplied by Slaters. The motor is located in the boiler which I made from thinwall brass tube.

[doilum]

Constant April showers have scuppered plans to mow the lawn and got me back in the workshop. Given recent discussions, I got the K class out of its case and gave it a go on my four foot test / display track. Once levelled, it managed 3 of my heavy whitemetal open wagons without too much distress. A 10% gradient produced much wheel spinning. It also managed a Gresley TPO, but I wasnt cruel enough to get out the matching coach. Given that Bamborough and Cawood would have rarely had to manage much more than a pair of six wheel coaches or four or five wagons .........

[jdb82]

You have far more "meat" on the frames than my K class.

I would still drill the pilot holes for plunger pickups. At 1mm they will hardly show / be easily filled with solder, should you decide against them. My choice would be: ahead of first and middle axle and behind rear. The choice of gearbox may preclude their use or require the gear mount to be slimmed down.

Given the size of the enclosed cab on Bamborough / Cawood, you might consider the partial sacrifice of the firebox door area. This will allow you to drive the rear axle with a 1622 type motor in the firebox. Strategically placed crew occupy the door openings and screen the view.

 

If budget is not a problem, look on the abc gears website. One of their 3 stage transmissions might get a modest cylindrical motor inside the boiler. They have a page of scaleable templates.I have only used their larger offerings with a Canon 1833 in my Hunslet Austerities and WD austerity, they are superb.

The K class uses the coreless motor and multistage gearbox supplied by Slaters. The motor is located in the boiler which I made from thinwall brass tube.

 

Constant April showers have scuppered plans to mow the lawn and got me back in the workshop. Given recent discussions, I got the K class out of its case and gave it a go on my four foot test / display track. Once levelled, it managed 3 of my heavy whitemetal open wagons without too much distress. A 10% gradient produced much wheel spinning. It also managed a Gresley TPO, but I wasnt cruel enough to get out the matching coach. Given that Bamborough and Cawood would have rarely had to manage much more than a pair of six wheel coaches or four or five wagons .........

 

Yeah, the L class frames certainly seem a bit chunkier than some other of the MW classes. All to my benefit! I'll take your advice and drill the pilot holes in case I do go down the plunger pickup route. 

As for the gearbox, I would like a nice ABC, but I'm not sure I can justify the extra £40 or so to get it shipped out here. I wouldn't want to trust a £100+ gearbox/motor combo in the rather unreliable regular post out here! I've got 2 alternative with me in my drawer, so I'll be using one of those. I have rescaled a couple of drawings of Bamburgh to 7mm scale, and checked everything matches the etch size. I'll add the motor and gearbox options later to decide which to use. 

Good to hear your models are out and having a run! I long for the day I have somewhere for a test track, or a layout to tuns things on!

 

 

[doilum]

I had forgotten how large the L class were, almost as big as a Hunslet 15". I have been out to the workshop and put a fold up gear box and spurious 1833 motor over the drawing from MRJ #8. I would be reasonably confident of being able to drive the rear axle with the motor vertical in the firebox. Any compromise would be limited to the cab floor around the firebox door area, easily disguised by a pair of well fed crew. The boiler is now free to be filled with lead or a length of suitable steel bar. You can now go looking for houses to pull down.

[jdb82]

I had forgotten how large the L class were, almost as big as a Hunslet 15". I have been out to the workshop and put a fold up gear box and spurious 1833 motor over the drawing from MRJ #8. I would be reasonably confident of being able to drive the rear axle with the motor vertical in the firebox. Any compromise would be limited to the cab floor around the firebox door area, easily disguised by a pair of well fed crew. The boiler is now free to be filled with lead or a length of suitable steel bar. You can now go looking for houses to pull down.

 

 

Looking at my drawings, both of my options maybe a tight fit, but the Slaters option looks the most comfortable, so I'll probably go for that 'safe' option. Do you have the dimensions for the Slaters Plunger pickups by any chance? Just been searching for them online, but haven't found any info on the diameter of them. I know I'm only drilling pilot holes at the moment, but the back of the steel wheel rim is only 2.6mm, which doesn't seem much to hide the pickup behind! I'm sure it'll be fine.

[N15class]

They are quite large but look top heavy with that large cab on them.

[doilum]

Looking at my drawings, both of my options maybe a tight fit, but the Slaters option looks the most comfortable, so I'll probably go for that 'safe' option. Do you have the dimensions for the Slaters Plunger pickups by any chance? Just been searching for them online, but haven't found any info on the diameter of them. I know I'm only drilling pilot holes at the moment, but the back of the steel wheel rim is only 2.6mm, which doesn't seem much to hide the pickup behind! I'm sure it'll be fine.

The insulated bushes:

They measure 7 mm end to end.

The outside flange is 5mm across.

They are slightly conical and I have a "dedicated" 9/64 drill, but you are probably safe enough with 3mm. The important thing is to achieve a snug fit that doesn't compress the bush as this will compromise the smooth action of the plunger.

I do the final fit with a round file.

For best results the plunger needs to contact the middle of the metal flange, hence the use of a 1mm pilot. If you go slightly large, the situation can be recovered with a drop of the gel type super glue.

I have even managed to reposition a pick up after the original builder had located it exactly in line with a rim insulation band. This was due to using cast wheels instead of Slaters. Subsequent owners had tried additional wiper types but it still ran badly. Once centered on metal it runs like a watch.

If people have a problem with Slaters pickups, it is almost certainly one of three issues:

1) too tight

2) off centre

3) the electrical lead is too heavy or inflexible.

This final point is often overlooked. My best source is usually from salvaged phone or IT cable. It needs to be copper and multistrand. :

Hopefully this helps.