Manning Wardle L Class 0-6-0 (Agenoria Kit)

[PhilMortimer]

IMG_6529.JPG

 

Also soldered in the bearings to the chassis sides. I have a master chassis jig from Hobby Holidays, and this is the first time I have used it. I won't be soldering the frames together until I have laminated the coupling rods, as these are used to determine the exact position of each of the dummy axels on the jig. Just out of curiosity, I tried to slide one of the frame sides onto the jig, but found it to be an extremely tight fit, to the point where the frame was wanting to bend.....I thought better of forcing it! No matter how much I adjusted the position, even by minute amounts, I couldn't seem to find a location where it slid on easily. I'm not sure if this a result of me not yet locating them using the coupling rods, inaccuracy in the etch, a tight bearing (I haven't reamed them yet), or a problem with the jig (highly unlikely....hopefully!). 

My plan is to do the rods sometime this week and take it from there. Hopefully I'll not need to unsolder the bearings, as I made quite a neat job of them (for me anyway!!).

 

 

 

Very nice neat build here.

 

With reference to setting the bearing holes, i have the Hobby Holidays jig so can give you some pointers here. You really need to make up the coupling rods first, either rigid or flexible, depending if you are making a rigid or compensated / sprung chassis.(If the rods are flexible make sure that there is no slop in the articulation joint that can allow the distance between hole centers to vary). The holes in the coupling rods may need opening out slightly so they slip over the pins - they should be snug, but sliding fit. You may need a broach to do this.

 

Once the rods are made, use them to set the axle spacing on the jig by adjusting the axle pin positions on the jig until the rods just slip on and off the pins. Lock the jig and re-test - it is possible to slightly move the pins whilst locking down. Time taken getting this right will pay dividends later on. Place both sets of rods on the jig pins to check that the spacing is identical on both sets of rods - i have been caught out that way before. If nessecary adjust.

 

When building fitting the chassis bearings, you will use the jig spacing, as set by the rods, to get the bearings in proper position. I ususally check both sides of the chassis are identical by superimposing one on top of the other. This should be the case, but is worth checking. Open out one bearing hole in each chassis plate so that it just accepts the bearing in the hole. push through and solder. I ususally use either the front or rear axle hole. Then assemble the chassis, complet with frame spacers, etc, ensuring that it is square in all dimensions. Place the chassis on the jig, with the installed bearings sliding on the axle pins, and then try and slide the bearings into the holes in the plate frames. If they fit, great! Go ahead and solder each one into position. If they don't, you may need to open out the holes a touch with a tapered reamer, so that they fit. I ususally do one bearing at a time, ensuring that the chassis remains level. Beware of putting too much heat into the bearing joint for too long - this can cause the metal to expand whilst soldering, which then contracts slightly causing the bearing to be in the wrong position when the solder cools. This is particularly prevelant with thin metals. The solder should be hot enough to flow easily, but without distorting the chassis. This is also true when assembling the chassis side frames to the spacers.

 

Once all the bearings are in position, remove from the jig. It will now need testing. I usually test by putting two axles in first and fitting the wheels (with crankpins fitted), to make an 0-4-0. Try rotating the wheels to see if there are any tight spots. If there are not, fit the next axle and repeat. If there is a tight spot, check to see where it is and if nessecary, open out the crankpin holes a touch with a broach. Just a touch at a time, you don't want to make the fit too sloppy. I usually do not adjust the center axle crank pin hole, but instead adjust the outer axle crank pin holes (e.g. the first or last on an 0-6-0) - this avoids accumulation of error down the length of the wheelbase. One possible problem that is sometimes found is that the crankpins may not be perpendicular to the wheel face. It is essential that the crankpin is indeed at 90 degrees, else this can also give tight spots that will fake you out and drive you to distraction.

 

None of this is difficult, but it does require patience and thoroughness in both building the rods and setting up the jig. Do it in small steps and if you get frustrated with it, step away and come back to it when feeling better. At frist it will take a while, but with practice it shouldn't be too onerous to do and you will soon be knocking out sweetly running chassis!

 

HTH

 

PM

[jdb82]

Very nice neat build here.

 

With reference to setting the bearing holes, i have the Hobby Holidays jig so can give you some pointers here. You really need to make up the coupling rods first, either rigid or flexible, depending if you are making a rigid or compensated / sprung chassis.(If the rods are flexible make sure that there is no slop in the articulation joint that can allow the distance between hole centers to vary). The holes in the coupling rods may need opening out slightly so they slip over the pins - they should be snug, but sliding fit. You may need a broach to do this.

 

Once the rods are made, use them to set the axle spacing on the jig by adjusting the axle pin positions on the jig until the rods just slip on and off the pins. Lock the jig and re-test - it is possible to slightly move the pins whilst locking down. Time taken getting this right will pay dividends later on. Place both sets of rods on the jig pins to check that the spacing is identical on both sets of rods - i have been caught out that way before. If nessecary adjust.

 

When building fitting the chassis bearings, you will use the jig spacing, as set by the rods, to get the bearings in proper position. I ususally check both sides of the chassis are identical by superimposing one on top of the other. This should be the case, but is worth checking. Open out one bearing hole in each chassis plate so that it just accepts the bearing in the hole. push through and solder. I ususally use either the front or rear axle hole. Then assemble the chassis, complet with frame spacers, etc, ensuring that it is square in all dimensions. Place the chassis on the jig, with the installed bearings sliding on the axle pins, and then try and slide the bearings into the holes in the plate frames. If they fit, great! Go ahead and solder each one into position. If they don't, you may need to open out the holes a touch with a tapered reamer, so that they fit. I ususally do one bearing at a time, ensuring that the chassis remains level. Beware of putting too much heat into the bearing joint for too long - this can cause the metal to expand whilst soldering, which then contracts slightly causing the bearing to be in the wrong position when the solder cools. This is particularly prevelant with thin metals. The solder should be hot enough to flow easily, but without distorting the chassis. This is also true when assembling the chassis side frames to the spacers.

 

Once all the bearings are in position, remove from the jig. It will now need testing. I usually test by putting two axles in first and fitting the wheels (with crankpins fitted), to make an 0-4-0. Try rotating the wheels to see if there are any tight spots. If there are not, fit the next axle and repeat. If there is a tight spot, check to see where it is and if nessecary, open out the crankpin holes a touch with a broach. Just a touch at a time, you don't want to make the fit too sloppy. I usually do not adjust the center axle crank pin hole, but instead adjust the outer axle crank pin holes (e.g. the first or last on an 0-6-0) - this avoids accumulation of error down the length of the wheelbase. One possible problem that is sometimes found is that the crankpins may not be perpendicular to the wheel face. It is essential that the crankpin is indeed at 90 degrees, else this can also give tight spots that will fake you out and drive you to distraction.

 

None of this is difficult, but it does require patience and thoroughness in both building the rods and setting up the jig. Do it in small steps and if you get frustrated with it, step away and come back to it when feeling better. At frist it will take a while, but with practice it shouldn't be too onerous to do and you will soon be knocking out sweetly running chassis!

 

HTH

 

PM

 

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation Phil - all makes perfect sense. I shall certainly be giving all of the above a go when I return in the new year :-) It seems like building a sweet running chassis (even a simple one) is modelling's way of teaching precision and accuracy! Fractions of a millimetre..... I know the accepted order of building is to do the chassis first, and then then body, but in this case, I'm glad I've done it the other way round. I think if I had starting with the chassis, it may have put me off! 

[PhilMortimer]

Happy to help. Any further questions, pleas ask.

 

I often build the basic body before the chassis, contrary to conventional wisdom, so you are not alone. In reality, it is often best to build both together to allow checking of clearance etc.

 

That superstructure looks fantastic, so I don't think you will have too many problems with the chassis.

[Guest Isambarduk]

I've not had them [metric tap and die set] long but I have cut several threads with the M2 tap and die. Can't fault them on brass.

 

Apologies for hijacking this thread but this is where the subject appeared.  My tap and die set arrived during the week and I have had a play with them today.  Indeed, like Paul, I found them to be faultless on brass (and nickel silver) and I don't intend to use them on anything harder or tougher.

 

I was a bit dismayed to open the package and to see all the taps and dies rolling around, because they had not been retained in their respective compartments, but they are quite light so I hope that they have not knocked too many lumps out of each other.  I spotted the problem as soon as I removed the lid: the die holder is too think for its compartment, which prevents the lid from closing properly on the other items.

 

 

A quick trip to the milling machine removed about a mm each side and the slim-line holder snuggled down in its compartment.  Whilst I was at it, I decided that it deserved a better set screw than the gaudy chromium-plated Philips offering that was supplied so I turned up a brass thumb screw with a 4BA hex head (not that you'd need a spanner to tighten it sufficiently).

 

 

OK, hijack over.    David

[Gordon A]

What's the two pipes that are coming out of the smoke box?

One will be a blower, I would think the thinner one, the other pipe?

 

Gordon A

[Marshall5]

What's the two pipes that are coming out of the smoke box?

One will be a blower, I would think the thinner one, the other pipe?

 

Gordon A

Is the larger one not the exhaust from the vacuum brake ejector - a post preservation fitting?

Ray.

[Gordon A]

Is the larger one not the exhaust from the vacuum brake ejector - a post preservation fitting?

Ray.

 

Ray, that is my thinking.

So from JDB82's point of view is it appropriate?

 

Gordon A

[jdb82]

What's the two pipes that are coming out of the smoke box?

One will be a blower, I would think the thinner one, the other pipe?

 

Gordon A

 

Is the larger one not the exhaust from the vacuum brake ejector - a post preservation fitting?

Ray.

 

Ray, that is my thinking.

So from JDB82's point of view is it appropriate?

 

Gordon A

 

Answers on a postcard please! I'm afraid I'm still learning the finer points of the various pipes, valves and knobs that you come across....purely going on photos found on the web. I think the larger of the 2 pipes may well be a post-preservation addition, as it seems to be absent from the older locos I have photos for.....see below. 

 

 

 

 

As for whether it is appropriate for me, that depends what route I decide to go gown. The intention when I started out (and still now) was always purely to use this kit as a learning tool, rather than to end up with an accurate representation of a specific loco. I needed to learn the basics of brass kit construction, as well as painting and weathering techniques, but didn't have a specific loco, or time period in mind. Really, I should model the loco in it's preserved state, particularly in light of the exhaust pipe, but also because these are the photos I've largely been using. However, I really want to get into the weathering aspect of finishing too, which modelling the older working locos would be much better for. 

 

So now I have a decision to make: 

1) Paint and finish in preserved state - shiny and polished as the photo above

2) Paint and finish in a 1910's-ish state (whether I remove the exhaust pipe or not remains to be seen!! May use a bit of modeller's license)

3) Go for a slightly run-down creation of the preserved version to allow me to practice some weathering.

 

Food for thought.....need to chew it over fairly quickly though as I need to obtain paint and weathering materials to bring back to Brunei with me in a few weeks.

 

Thanks for your input and observation - it's exactly what I need :-)

 

Edit:- It might be worth me saying that I do not have a layout either currently or planning for it to run on, so am not bound to any particular era :-)

Edited December 10, 2017 by jdb82

[jdb82]

Happy Christmas all!

Supplies and paint have been bought, excess luggage is expected......

Work on the Hudswell will resume in about a week and a half or so once I return to Brunei. Hope the paint makes it though the airport scanners OK....

[Gordon A]

The larger pipe from the smoke box will be for creating vacuum for operating the vacuum brakes on carriages and fitted freight stock.

As you say a preservation addition.

 

Gordon A

[jdb82]

All my bit's and pieces managed to make it through the airport screening, which is good news! Another heavy bag, but now fully (hopefully) stocked up to get me to a completed model, although I guess there's always something else you could add. Trick is knowing when to stop.

 

After a month away from the workbench, I finally managed to sneak a couple of hours yesterday evening. I made a start on the coupling rods. They needed laminating, filing and then the crankpin holes opening out. I used 2 2mm drill bits to keep them in line whilst I laminated them. Got half of one side done (front half), although having opened out the holes to 2.7mm to accept the crankpin bush, the edge of the hole is worryingly close to the edge of the metal. Hope nickel silver is hard wearing enough not to wear through during use! 

 

2 drill bits being used as a jig to make sure everything is lined up

 

front half of the rod ready to go

 

I also made a start on the rear half of the rod, but made a royal mess of it..... the top laminate layer is half etched, and the hole wasn't quite big enough to accept my drill bit being used for the 'jig'. Whilst opening it out, the broach snagged and twisted the end. A firm expletive followed. Quite a bit of remedial work later and I think everything is now straight and uncreased! Still need to file and clean these up, and then solder to the front half. 

[Gordon A]

Just a detail, if you fit the vacuum pipe to your boiler as in preservation then screw couplings and vacuum pipes would be appropriate so that she can haul passenger stock.

If not vacuum fitted then ordinary three links as in your picture of 35.

 

Gordon A

[jdb82]

Just a detail, if you fit the vacuum pipe to your boiler as in preservation then screw couplings and vacuum pipes would be appropriate so that she can haul passenger stock.

If not vacuum fitted then ordinary three links as in your picture of 35.

 

Gordon A

 

Thanks Gordon - good spot. I'd seen the vacuum brake pipe, but hadn't seen the different coupling. Still haven't quite made my mind up which one to go for yet.....keeping my options open whilst I complete the chassis. There are two types of coupling rods supplied with the kit - the square-jointed version which the older locos used (as in 35 above), and the rounder-jointed rods which were used in the later locos. I plan on making both sets up so I can use the correct ones once I finally make a decision!

Edited January 13, 2018 by jdb82

[doilum]

Two sets of coupling rods?

Thats the first step to scratch building a clone!

[Gordon A]

Just a detail, if you fit the vacuum pipe to your boiler as in preservation then screw couplings and vacuum pipes would be appropriate so that she can haul passenger stock.

If not vacuum fitted then ordinary three links as in your picture of 35.

 

Gordon A

 

Ooops I missed mentioning the steam heat pipe for the preservation era loco.

[jdb82]

Ooops I missed mentioning the steam heat pipe for the preservation era loco.

 

 

Is that the black pipe to the right of the coupling hook?

[Gordon A]

Is that the black pipe to the right of the coupling hook?

 

Yes.

Steam heat pipes are smooth while vacuum brake pipes are ribbed.

 

Gordon A

[jdb82]

Got both the left and right sets of coupling rods made up, and have used them to set the centres for the jig. This confirmed my thoughts from the end of post #76, that some of the bearings are not quite in the correct position. I have taken the bearings back out again using an old bamboo skewer to push them out as I applied the soldering iron. Next I'll be following Phil's great instructions from post #76 to hopefully align everything correctly. I fear if it works, it may be more out of good luck than any kind of engineering skills I have/do not have!! Fingers crossed....

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by jdb82

[Gordon A]

Why don't you use your jig to assemble the bearings in the frames?

Then the wheel base on the frames will match the rods.

 

Gordon A

[jdb82]

Why don't you use your jig to assemble the bearings in the frames?

Then the wheel base on the frames will match the rods.

 

Gordon A

 

Yup, that's what I'm going to do. Now the holes in the frames are big enough to provide a little sideways movement to the bearings the jig will/should line everything up nicely. Phil gave a really good description in post #76 as to how to go about it.

[jdb82]

With the bearings removed and cleaned up, the holes in the frame were opened up a touch. When removing the bearings, 5 of them came out relatively easily, but one of the centre ones just wouldn't budge. I think I'd used more solder on when installing this bearing - it was probably the 1st one I'd done. I have a 50W iron, but this didn't seem quite powerful enough to melt all the solder. In the absence of a small gas torch, I resorted to filing this flush and reaming out the the hole. The spare axel bushes that I had were somewhat chunkier than those provided with the kit, and the 'face plate' of the bush is a little too think; when paired with the bush on the opposite side, everything is too wide for the axel. I will need to carefully file these down to match the thickness of the original bushes, which give just enough clearance. 

 

The centre bushes were soldered in and then put onto the jig. The spaces were soldered in place , followed by the rest of the bearings. Much to my surprise, it all slid off the jig without any problems, and initial trials with an axel and wheel set are very positive - all spin nice and freely. Bed time was calling though, and I've yet to open the other packets of wheels to have all 3 sets in at once to check everything is level. could be though - the top of the chassis is dead level, and using the jig should have hopefully taken care of the rest! 

 

As you can see from the photo, I haven't had chance to clean it all up yet - that's tomorrow night's job. The over-sized axel bush is clearly visible in the centre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jdb82]

Chassis is now cleaned up, and I have filed down the middle bearing face plates to a depth that will now accept the length of the axel across the chassis. The one axel I have made up spins freely in each set of bearings, although the middle ones are slightly tighter than the other - hopefully not to the point where they cause problems. I'll get the other axels made up tomorrow and give it a push and see what happens. Fingers crossed.

 

 

 

I also cleaned up the 2nd set of coupling rods - the top pair are for the older locos, the bottom pair for the more recent versions. I'm currently leaning towards finishing my model as number 31, Hamburg. This gives me the more modern loco style, but also the option to practice weathering techniques. It's not kept in quite a pristine a state as Gothenburg on the East Lancs line (no intention to offend anyone who works with Hamburg!)!

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by jdb82

[jdb82]

Good news: I've put the axels/wheels into the chassis and all moves smoothly and freely on the track. The body looks the part now it's got a chassis to sit on.

 

 

 

Bad news: I countersunk a hole in the back of the wheel so the head of the crankpin screw was flush, but now the crankpin is not perpendicular to the face of the wheel. It was before I medalled with it...... I'm using Slaters wheels which are already tapped for the crankpin, so I wasn't expecting countersinking to affect this.

 

 

Have I completely buggered up the wheel, or can I just drill out the hole and glue in place? Just to complicate things, I don't have a pillar/stand drill to ensure I drill vertically!

[Simond]

Mmm, that might be a bit of a challenge. But don’t panic!

 

Firstly, is the screw in the picture the one supplied with the wheels? If so, it’s 12BA, and probably snug, but not tight, in the hole in the wheel.

 

Presuming you’ve not glued anything, and the countersink is only a millimetre or so deep;

 

Put a crankpin bush on the screw, with the flange towards the wheel, and put a washer & nut on it, and tighten up. Then take the same photos. Hopefully it’ll look rather better. Also, please post a photo of the countersink.

 

Are all the wheels the same?

 

There are solutions! Hopefully there are solutions in Brunei!

 

Best

Simon

[Michael Edge]

Just bend the screw (gently) so that it's square to the wheel face. Slater's coupling rod bushes are such a slack fit on the screws that tightening the nuts moves all the crankthrows out anyway. Once finished I normally back the nuts off a quarter turn and fix with threadlock.