Maid’s Morton

[DavidMcKenzie]

This section of the layout came on a bit over the weekend. The far end needs probably one more coat of plaster bandage.



At this end the road is taking shape and a barn will sit on the hard standing eventually. I was struggling with the road surface to start with and a friend recommended smooth it from woodland scenics, I was amazed how well the stuff worked.

Edited October 8, 2018 by DavidMcKenzie

[DavidMcKenzie]

It's not all been positive this weekend though.

 

I guess I didn't use enough washing up liquid to break the surface tension and the glue didn't penetrate down below the surface level of the gravel. It had a hard rigid top coat that was very brittle and under it was just lose gravel. It shouldn't be too much trouble to put right, but another lesson learnt .

 

[DavidMcKenzie]

On the stock front this one came back out after spending the summer sitting on a shelf waiting some attention. It got a few transfers added.

 

It's not the best paint job I have ever done, but hopefully a bit of weathering will help hide that because the livery itself is one of my favourites.

 

 

All the best

Dave

[DavidMcKenzie]

I didn't really know where to post this question so I thought I'd start here and see if anyone has any useful pictures.

 

This week I've been looking for pictures of 'raised up' cable trunking. Not the usual concrete stuff that sits on the ground. I was thinking about modelling a bit of it, but I can't for the life of me find any pictures of the stuff. Google searches of 'raised trunking' didn't bring anything useful. I am sure it exists and that I have seen it often enough. But it's the kind of thing no one ever takes a photo of and it would only be in the background by coincidence. I'd appreciate any help.

 

Many thanks

Dave

[Benjamin Brady]

Dave

  Elevated troughing , used to be asbestos , in lengths of about 6ft , usally covered in green moss , 

 

  Concrete posts with metal hoop to bolt said item , lid clipped on by a hideous clamp that went rusty , new versions then went to GRP Grey , again ld had lip on both sides and again clipped , sure we have the drawings off how to install in our office .

 

 By the way we are at present installing on our layout , 

 

 Hope this helps 

[5BarVT]

“Elevated troughing British Rail” and select images gives some good pictures similar to what was installed at Tring late 90’s.

Paul.

[Patriot87003]

Another tip could be to use cab ride footage to see how the elevated cable trunking progresses along the track side. There’s quite a bit of footage of the WCML on YouTube from a few different years. An example linked below - hope this helps.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g9pye6N7aK0

[DavidMcKenzie]

Thanks for the replies and help. That is exactly what I was looking for J

 

All the best

Dave

[DavidMcKenzie]

A mix of modelling today, started with something on a rather large scale. It needs a sand down and maybe another skim at the end, but the plasters thick enough now to give a stable base for scenic bits to be slowly added.

 

 

At the complete other end of the size scale a few drain covers were added, some cable detailing that stands out a little too much at the moment, but with a tiny bit of extra gravel added should blend in nicely. Also added some old rails at the side of the track. Plenty of little details still to add, but this sections slowly coming on.

 

[DavidMcKenzie]

I would value some opinions on the AWS ramps. They only have base colour at the moment and need detailing and weathering, they are also sitting a bit proud. But when I lie them roughly in place I am not sure if with or without looks more realistic.

 

Without

 

With

[Freight Connection]

I think toned down / weathered and not proud ( As you say), and they will look fine.

Is it because as a pair that they just look a little bit more imposing maybe?

Also you've gone to so much detail around them, why not fit them.

 

Just had a good read through the whole thread Dave ( Wasn't in the best job for time off at the end of last year, and so not on here much) and so missed the start.

Was only really up to speed with the last page or two, glad I looked through, Loco work amongst other things looks really good.

 

Back to the ramps, give it a day or two maybe...Nothing worse than looking at something your unhappy with, if you don't want them, then at least you won't have to scrape them back off. 

 

Regards - Steve

[Richie Kynaston]

I would value some opinions on the AWS ramps. They only have base colour at the moment and need detailing and weathering, they are also sitting a bit proud. But when I lie them roughly in place I am not sure if with or without looks more realistic.

 

Without

IMG_20181009_193609.jpg

 

With

IMG_20181009_193530.jpg

 

 

Hi David,

I think I agree with Steve perhaps toned down bit, the real thing will get filthy really quickly.    Also, are you aware that you've got two there, when you only need one?  Sorry if I am stating the obvious!

 

Have you see this thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1066/entry-8889-aws-ramps/ may help with weathering and background?

 

Richard

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the comments, I think it was wise to do what you said Steve and leave them for a few days and come back to them.

 

I still think they look very oversized and imposing compared to reality. I am going to have a go at knocking something up from an Nbrass kit instead and see if the size fits a bit better.

 

I am no expert on AWS ramps, but the reason for having two of them 'back to back' is that the line is multi directional. I think in the end I would also need to add an additional magnet in the middle of the pair. I don't know how it is in reality on the WCML. I have found a lot of pictures of AWS ramps on the Internet, but non so far of them on the WCML in the late 90s.

 

Here is an example of what I believe is a multi direction ramp:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stuart166axe/8860581032

 

and a single direction ramp:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kevin_r_boyd/2559399750/in/photolist-4UaAnU-4HBq7Q-22hLDCk-cuPPY9-bzUTL2-2sG52V-cuPL2Q-cuPMhj-cuPBq3-cuPGh3-cuPNFq-cuPF6E-cuPCC3-cuPHuN-72nJGB-HfxnH-RLJrjC-aiC1Yd-24py5Kx-Nn4r9A-t7iFVh-d8pXa-nChPj2-aoiE6n-4JZjUH-2wFd1n-csnKps-f4ed4d-9FcFXL-dtNYLY-9xaT6E-n5bz2o-f2f6ZK-c4PWc-otVJC2-dq1rEq-jY9nK-9fbBBB-EKrEPi-ahYLNx-f6piKu-dpGJq1-obrudG-cuPpbs-2jzSDn-cuPswA-5feayu-23FwCEG-aiR6bL-cuPw3N

 

I need to investigate a bit further about when and where the single and multi directional ramps were used, but I guess coming out of a station there is always a chance that at some point a train is travelling in the 'wrong' direction. So even if it is the fast up line, could it be a multi direction ramp here on the off chance a train is running in the 'down' direction?

 

Part of the reason I enjoy modelling. It opens my eyes to notice all kinds of things that would otherwise pass me by un-noticed.

 

All the best

Dave

[Benjamin Brady]

Hello

 

  Sorry , on the AWS ramps , being boring here , you do need Two , but not of the same sort , one is an " electro " which you have , the other is a " Permanent " Which is smaller in width .

 

   Do like the layout , keep going .

[Freight Connection]

I've never fitted ramps on a Bi-Directional line Dave, and only ever fitted Peco when fitting singles. And they would have had a slight rub down underneath to key, that combined with the code 80 they sat in probably made them look smaller anyway. I think at the time I wanted it well down to avoid catching it when rail cleaning

 

So will be interesting to see a pic of the Nbrass ones fitted for comparison

 

Regards - Steve

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hello

 

  Sorry , on the AWS ramps , being boring here , you do need Two , but not of the same sort , one is an " electro " which you have , the other is a " Permanent " Which is smaller in width .

 

   Do like the layout , keep going .

 

It's not boring at all Benjamin, I enjoy looking at all the details that go into a railway. I am trying my best not to turn into a rivet Counter  and always remembering that it is all just a model, an ilusion of reality and some fun, but I do enjoy learning about all of these details along the way.  

 

I think I see what you mean. I will have a go at knocking something up this evening and will post a picture later.

 

I don't suppose you know how often single and multi direction AWS ramps were used on the WCML in the 90s? 

 

All the best

Dave

[5BarVT]

It's not boring at all Benjamin, I enjoy looking at all the details that go into a railway. I am trying my best not to turn into a rivet Counter and always remembering that it is all just a model, an ilusion of reality and some fun, but I do enjoy learning about all of these details along the way.

 

I think I see what you mean. I will have a go at knocking something up this evening and will post a picture later.

 

I don't suppose you know how often single and multi direction AWS ramps were used on the WCML in the 90s?

 

All the best

Dave

!! Signalling Anorak Warning !!

AWS comes in (broadly) two types: old pattern and new pattern. Old pattern was installed until at least the 80s, and possibly later and there is still a lot of it about. As mentioned by others, there are permanent magnets, electromagnets and suppressor magnets. The old pattern AWS was 'long and narrow' and some (electro and suppressor) required ballast to be dug out between the sleepers. New pattern (electro and suppressor) are wide and fat because they are all above sleeper level.

AWS for a signal requires a permanent followed by and electro and is protected on the approach by a ramp. On a bi-di line the permanent needs to be suppressed to prevent it giving a warning for a train proceeding in the opposite direction. If signals are the right distance apart on a bi-di line a permanent can be shared between two signals and suppression is not required (known in the trade as EPE).

 

I have been through my photos and managed to find examples of most arrangements.

 

Old style ramp and permanent (Clacton 2004)

 

Old style suppressor and electro with new style ramps (Gloucester 2018)

 

New style electro with old style suppressor (Lancaster 2005) Note extension to the ramp adjacent to the electro.

 

Shared permanent (EPE) (Cardiff 2018) Also with ramp extension adjacent to each electro.

 

Moving on to the peco model: what you have looks to me like an old style ramp and permanent with a new style electro. Your electro is painted yellow, but the permanent isn't distinguished from the ramp (just very dirty and not renewed with the electro is your excuse). To make it a bi-di line you need to cut the ramp off the other AWS and put it adjacent to your electro. If you want it mid way between signals (EPE style) there is a lot more cutting as you need to separate each into its three component parts then reassemble Ramp Electro Permanent Electro Ramp (making sure the angle on the electro is the right way round).

 

Here ends the lesson on AWS. Hope its useful and use as much or as little as you want. Supplementary questions are welcomed.

 

Paul.

Edited October 12, 2018 by 5BarVT

[DavidMcKenzie]

The nBrass one's look much better in my opinion. I have taken some photos (with a loco close to give a sense of size and scale) at each stage for comparison and hopefully the bi directional ramp is closer to reality now and better than just two of the peco style back to back.

 

To make the bi directional one, two of the normal one's started out like this

 

 

Then after some cutting and gluing it was offered up on the layout

 

 

Then painted

 

 

Then weathered

 

 

 

The only thing I am still unsure of is the prototypical layout of the ramps and where a multi directional ramp and where a single direction ramp would be used. Nothing will get glued down yet and I will try to find some more info/photos from the late 90s to see what was commonly used at the time.

 

Single direction ramp (standard nBrass kit without modification)

 

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hi Paul, I was writing and adding photo's as you posted. Great info, thanks a lot for posting it's a great help.

 

All the best

Dave

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hi Paul,

 

After taking some time to read your interesting post in a little more detail, I think what I was calling a 'bi directional' ramp looks something similar to a 'Shared permanent EPE' as your photo from Cardiff 2018. The ramp I was calling 'single direction' looks similar to the new style suppressor and electro as in your photo from Lancaster 2005, but missing one ramp still.

 

I have also made a few of these which came in the kit and look like the older style.

 

 

I don't suppose you have any idea which would be typical for use on the WCML in the late 90s about ~500meters away from a through station on the fast line's?

 

Again many thanks for your interest post.

 

All the best

Dave

Edited October 12, 2018 by DavidMcKenzie

[Timmy84]

Hi Paul,

After taking some time to read your interesting post in a little more detail, I think what I was calling a 'bi directional' ramp looks something similar to a 'Shared permanent EPE' as your photo from Cardiff 2018. The ramp I was calling 'single direction' looks similar to the new style suppressor and electro as in your photo from Lancaster 2005, but missing one ramp still.

I have also made a few of these which came in the kit and look like the older style.

IMG_20181012_205022.jpg

I don't suppose you have any idea which would be typical for use on the WCML in the late 90s about ~500meters away from a through station on the fast line's?

Again many thanks for your interest post.

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

AWS should be fitted roughly 200 yards from each signal on the approach. It is also used on the approach to both permanent and temporary speed restrictions where there is a significant reduction in speed. It is pretty much ubiquitous but is absent from some complex station arrangements where signage would be provided to show that AWS is not present in that area.

 

I hope this helps. TPWS is something different and is fitted again in relation to signalling, speed restrictions and buffer stops. They are the mesh grid things that you see in the 4 foot area between rails.

 

Tim.

[DavidMcKenzie]

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for the reply. It's all starting to make sense to me now and I think (by complete luck ) it will all work out and everything is roughly in the right place.

 

The double signal gantry shown a few posts back is going to sit a scaled down ~130 yards down from the ramps. I don't really want to move it to the perfect 200 yards because it would put the signal on a curve which wouldn't make much sense and no one is ever going to measure it exactly. All I am aiming for with my modelling is that nothing looks stupidly out of place and that I have as much fun and learn as much as I can along the way.

 

Although I am sure TPWS is another interesting subject I am not going to worry too much about that because I believe it wasn't introduced during the 90s.

 

The only question I still have after all the kind replies, looking at photo's and some reading is: when exactly would the Shared permanent EPE (or bi directional ramp) be used? Just when a ramp fell with luck ~200 yards between signals (with both signals facing the ramp) when trains are using the line in both directions? Or would there be other uses for this style or ramp?

 

Thanks again for all the replies, they are a great help to a 'newbie modeller'.

 

All the best

Dave

[5BarVT]

The double signal gantry shown a few posts back is going to sit a scaled down ~130 yards down from the ramps. I don't really want to move it to the perfect 200 yards because it would put the signal on a curve which wouldn't make much sense and no one is ever going to measure it exactly.

 

I’d forgotten about your signal post earlier. My gut feel was a compressed 120m would work so you have come to the same answer independently.

Although I am sure TPWS is another interesting subject I am not going to worry too much about that because I believe it wasn't introduced during the 90s.

 

You’re right. There may have been some trial installations on the Brighton Line in ‘99, but the main installation period was 2001-2003.

The only question I still have after all the kind replies, looking at photo's and some reading is: when exactly would the Shared permanent EPE (or bi directional ramp) be used? Just when a ramp fell with luck ~200 yards between signals (with both signals facing the ramp) when trains are using the line in both directions? Or would there be other uses for this style or ramp?

 

Right again. To use the EPE formation you need two signals reading in opposite directions away from the magnets the right distance apart. Not exclusively, but generally at station platforms because a long platform gives the separation between signals that works.

Paul.

[DavidMcKenzie]

The last month has been slow with 2 weeks holiday and lot's to do on the roof renovation project, but I managed to get a few hours on the layout and an hour progressing the next class 90.

 

Still needs pantograph, weathering and then glazing. But it is slowly taking shape.

 

Can anyone guess which number it is going to get? I think it can only be one 90 due to a livery 'mistake' on the real loco.

 

I must admit I don't know the background story at all and it might not even be correct that only one of the 90s has the difference in livery I have copied. I am only assuming it is a unique 'mistake' after looking at lots of photos over the last month. If anyone knows the full story of how the 'mistake' on the real thing came about I would be interested to hear.

 

 

All the best

Dave

[Patriot87003]

Will it be 90023 by any chance?

 

Looks great by the way ...