Does track go dead over time.

[crazynitwit]

My current BLT, built to ensure simplicity and reliability, has no soldered joints except at the feeds; track is joined by rail joiners.  It has been in operation for about 9 months now and has proved 100% reliable except for one or two glitches at insulfrog points where there is a build up of carbon at the closure point of the blades, solved with a bit of scraping with a small file.  My theory is that the more wiring and the more joints you have, soldered or clamped, the less reliable things are.  The rail joiners are painted over with rail colour after the track is laid, to hide them, but I reckon this has also protected them from dirt getting into the joins.  

 

All wiring is above the baseboard, points and signals are operated by the Finger Of God, and the basic principle is simplicity of installation and maintenance.  Points switch the current where it is intended to go, and I have not found any problem with locos stalling on insulfrogs; mind, I have no 0-4-0s.  Considerable attention was paid to level and smooth track joins.

I also use a point to control the current flow and from my experience Ive had very few/ if any problems with 0-4-0s or 4wdms (I'm the case of the sentinel) and it works fine. Even on the Hornby points with the large black zones. I haven't tried it on any other style of points tho.

[kevinlms]

Another thing to check is the flow of electricity through points.

 

A long-disused layout will sometimes appear 'dead' because of poor conduction at the points, especially if they are of the "live frog" type, but with no additional micro-switches added.

Not sure why you single out 'live frog' points. All points suffer exactly the same problem of poor conduction if left and are dirty.

[ejstubbs]

Rail joiners are designed so that the track can be dismantled and relaid

 

Really?  For Setrack maybe - hence the rail joiners being tack-welded to the rails, and the rolled-over ends on some Setrack rail joiners.  But for Streamline?  I would have thought that that is designed to be pretty much laid and left.  I know people do recycle Streamline between layouts but it's not really designed to be laid and lifted for every operating session.

 

IMO the primary purpose of rail joiners is...to join rails (it's in the name).  Not a function to be treated lightly, either: the first time I laid the track for my previous layout, I found a couple of joints where one rail hadn't actually gone in to the rail joiner, but was just sitting on top of it (this mistake is much easier to make when joining together sections of non-flexi track eg points).  Easy enough to spot by running a wagon over the newly-laid track, so you can correct it before committing to ballasting etc, but if not caught then it can be a bit of a mare to fix later.

 

That's not to say that they can't be problematic, and need treating with due respect if they're to fulfil both their primary (mechanical connection) and secondary (electrical continuity) functions reliably.

Edited November 7, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Legend]

Have to agree with The Johnster, keep it simple as possible. I’ve never soldered between railjoints , you don’t need to do this as a matter of course. If the railway is setrack and it’s been relaid several times then the fishplates May become loose. This happened to me when I was first trying to figure out what type of layout I wanted and was constantly relaying. Seems like centuries ago! . However since laying down track permanently , if you make sure it’s properly laid and joined (sometimes the fishplate slides underneath and doesn’t make the correct join, which can also cause derailments) then you should be ok for years.

[RexAshton]

I don't solder my track

Why not. It's the only way to guarantee good joints especially if the layout is subject to temperature and humidity changes - and most are. I agree though that it's not a skill everybody seems to master usually due to not cleaning the mating surfaces correctly or more often using too small a soldering iron..

[crazynitwit]

Why not. It's the only way to guarantee good joints especially if the layout is subject to temperature and humidity changes - and most are. I agree though that it's not a skill everybody seems to master usually due to not cleaning the mating surfaces correctly or more often using too small a soldering iron..

It's not that I cant solder track it's that I dont want to.

[Andy Hayter]

Why not. It's the only way to guarantee good joints especially if the layout is subject to temperature and humidity changes - and most are. I agree though that it's not a skill everybody seems to master usually due to not cleaning the mating surfaces correctly or more often using too small a soldering iron..

 

Why not?

 

Well if your layout is subject to temperature changes and had few or no sectional gaps (DCC for example), then how does the track accommodate expansion and contraction?  Stressing the sleepers and chairs is how.

[bike2steam]

It's not that I cant solder track it's that I dont want to.

There ya go, you've answered yer question in post number 1 !!

[locomad]

It's not that I cant solder track it's that I dont want to.

You could always try to spot weld them.

 

Something I've been experimenting with having watched some YouTube clips on building small or micro spot welders, there's quite a few interesting clips using old microwave bits etc.

 

It does work but requires a lot of experimenting if I was to build another layout I would set up such a device, get it working and in one batch spot weld wire droppers on the bottom of all my sections of track

 

On laying the track I might not use all of them, but if a point started to become a problem with electrical conductivity it would be easy to wire it up. I often find if such a point starts playing up, despite cleaning over time, it becomes more of a persistent problem.

 

At present with track laid my present method is to solder or weld a wire dropper under the fish plate and replace current on with that and wire up, I've spot welded on bench quite a few fishplates for such replacements

 

My own view and experience suggests its main line points which seem to suffer worst, perhaps it's constant use, I suspect once they suffer electrical conductivity they start to arc around the blades, they become bent or lose springiness and become over time less effective. As a result of this all main line rails have droppers added, this to reduce time the point blades are used to feed electricity to the locomotives running on the section of track.

 

You could argue that the rule of just feeding points from toe end is not a good idea in practice

[57xx]

That is more like the reason you have a problem .

 

Did he say he has a problem or was the OP querying if he is likely to run into problems in 3 months on his newly built layout..?

[crompton 33]

crazynitwit. you have not stated if you run DC or DCC .  I don' solder fishplates to the track .  But you carn't just rely on fishplates alone for the current . As i stated in no 8 you need dropers as well for the current . Fishplates are OK for a kids roundy  layout on a table that you pack away . Mine and 6 of the clubs Exhibition layouts use dropers for reliability reasons.

[crompton 33]

Did he say he has a problem or was the OP querying if he is likely to run into problems in 3 months on his newly built layout..?

Yes i better change that i got it wrong

Edited November 7, 2017 by crompton 33

[Chris M]

crazynitwit. you have not stated if you run DC or DCC .  I don' solder fishplates to the track .  But you carn't just rely on fishplates alone for the current . As i stated in no 8 you need dropers as well for the current . Fishplates are OK for a kids roundy  layout on a table that you pack away . Mine and 6 of the clubs Exhibition layouts use dropers for reliability reasons.

As stated in my post above I rely on fishplates for passing current. I had OO layouts in the eighties and now have two N gauge layouts. They are kept in the shed and travel to exhibitions but I have only had one problem once with a fishplate not conducting and this took about 30 seconds to fix. Therefore my experience suggests you don't need droppers at all.

 

Please note that my layouts are not kids roundy layouts and I don't appreciate the implication in your post.

[Legend]

Absolutely, you don’t need solder or wire droppers. You’re making things far too complicated . Use fishplates , make sure they are tight , clean and use occasional supplementary feeds if it’s a large layout . I think mine is 18 *13 . 25 years never soldered a rail joint yet

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's well worth buying a cheap multimeter (Maplins have them for about £15) for checking for electrical faults. 

[Chris M]

It's well worth buying a cheap multimeter (Maplins have them for about £15) for checking for electrical faults. 

Agree, I would say it was virtually impossible to build and maintain a model railway without one.

[DCB]

Track can go dead. I had some Hornby super 4 which went dead when I laid it outside. Sort of went rust colour and crumbled.

 

The thought of soldering droppers to set track is enough to make me turn to on board battery power. I have never found any problems with fishplates or point blade contact to provide connectivity indoors on DC with 1 amp circuit breakers.  I would just provide a feed every 6 feet or so.

However Fishplates do fail, usually on curves where continued expansion and contraction with temperature kinks the track after 25 years and the joint sleepers and fishplates need renewal though I leave the rails down. Laying for minimal gap between rails on a hot mid summer day is a good ploy to minimise kinks.  I don't think soldered track joints would survive the first winter in our shed.

 

 DCC is a different matter and neither fishplates nor point blade contact can cope with over 2 amps and DCC can be way over this with a heavy lighted train or a partial short.  I don't know why DCC types don't provide fast acting resettable 1 amp breakers in their rail feeds to take the load off fishplates etc instead of spending hours drilling baseboards and soldering droppers but c'est la vie.   It is in my to do plan for my fully sectioned dropperless DCC test track.  Maybe its a gap in the market.  

[The Johnster]

Conductive metal track can't go dead, but it can rust away if you use it in a way it in not designed for, DavidC, and using steel track permanently laid outdoors is such a use!  Nickel silver is fine and LGB uses brass rail.  

 

I agree about droppers and solder; they are not necessary on my layout, which is inside the heated living area of the flat and does not suffer major temperature or humidity variations.  But a layout that has to live in a shed, outbuilding, or garage which is not heated when the room is not in use is a different matter.  In this case a flexible system that can accommodate the expansion and contraction of track, wiring, and joints must be adopted, and a rapid fault locating system used; droppers are ideal for this.  Also, an exhibition layout will have a much tougher life and needs to be designed accordingly.  It must be able to run reliably in unpredictable circumstances involving variables of temperature, humidity, floor surface, vibration sometimes on suspended wooden hall floors, the odd knock, and the punters leaning on it, at the same time being lightweight and easy to erect and take down.  It is usually stored in variable climatic conditions between shows, and may be battered about a bit in transit and during assembly and take down, especially the latter when everyone is tired, in a rush, and wants to go home/to the bar.

 

Horses for courses, mate.

[crompton 33]

As stated in my post above I rely on fishplates for passing current. I had OO layouts in the eighties and now have two N gauge layouts. They are kept in the shed and travel to exhibitions but I have only had one problem once with a fishplate not conducting and this took about 30 seconds to fix. Therefore my experience suggests you don't need droppers at all.

 

Please note that my layouts are not kids roundy layouts and I don't appreciate the implication in your post.

I  stated kids layouts on tables that are put up and taken down. Not that your layout was a roundy .

[RexAshton]

It's not that I cant solder track it's that I dont want to.

Fair enough. I wasn't suggesting anything like that. Whatever works, works.

[John Tomlinson]

My layout has been going for around 14 years now. It is Peco code 75, and I have relied on the rail joining fishplates for electrical conductivity, with a problem only once - and I don't really know what that was except it was solved by slightly tightening the fishplate with pliers. I did take care whilst laying the track originally to make sure the fishplates were a tightish fit onto the railends, using pliers to tighten if needed.

 

My points which are Electrofrog rely on blade contact for conductivity. I've had the odd problem, invariably solved by a careful pass of fine wet and dry over the relevant surfaces. I did find after ballasting that remedial work with wet and dry was needed afterwards, however careful I was, but once sorted that's mainly been good thereafter. I do try quite hard to keep wheels and track clean, and particularly I'm careful about keeping lubrication to a minimum.

 

I run DC with an occasional DCC option, perhaps if I was entirely DCC I might have a different view.

 

John.

[The Johnster]

Yeah, ballasting wrecked my running briefly as well.  Bits get in between the point blades and stock rails, and in the flangeways.  I bought a set of cheap and very unpleasant paint brushes in a pound shop, intended for kiddies and easy to find in the dark(!), and their stiff and thick bristles proved ideal for this sort of situation.

[crazynitwit]

Going on from my own thread. I'm quite interested to see how I could wire up a traversed fiddle yard I have a few ideas but at the moment am a little confused.

[Gunnbrikt]

Personally found on some test track I setup on my coffee table the fishplate connections were pretty terrible (this was using code 75) and was unusable on DCC.

 

When doing my own layouts I'll 100% be connecting each piece of track up with droppers, no chance of doggy fishplate connections then

[Andy Hayter]

I agree that fishplates for code 75 track (I am guessing Peco) are not likely to maintain the best electrical conductivity if continually connected/disconnected or moved around/disturbed.  They are not designed for that sort of use.  However the OP was talking about Hornby track which is designed to be repeatedly set up and taken appart.  The fishpaltes are of an altogether stronger design to accommodate such usage.

 

Like others here, I have used fishplates to hold Peco track together and conduct.  In 30 years and 4 layouts that have been transported to exhibitions and across Europe, I have had one electrical failure.  On inspection it was clear that the problem was ham-fisted connecting of the tracks resulting in the fishpate becoming distorted leading to intermittent loss of conductivity from one track to the next..  Mea cupla.