Rail drivers' 28% Pay Rise to end Strike

[D854_Tiger]

I agree Brack - It's "The big boys at the top" who REALLY need sorting out wages wise, and in all companies / leadership / government concerns also.

 

Driverless Trains (etc etc) - no thanks, just another way for the above mentioned to award themselves more for cutting the number of employees.

 

Not nice is the future, not for the average guy / gal anyway.

 

Brit15

 

Yeah but without any little guys to boss around, the big guys haven't got a job either.

 

I was told a story, from back in the 1980s when Michael Edwards was brought in to sort out BL.

 

He called his management team and said, "Go away and find me 15% cost savings."

 

When a meeting was reconvened a rather desperate looking production manager had to admit, "I can't do it, the production facility dictates the staffing levels but if I had more modern production facilities maybe (and he went on to specify what he needed)."

 

One of the smug commercial managers had it sorted though (he even had a little list prepared), Edwards took a look and said, "Well done, now add your own name to that list unless you can explain to me why you have been running a department, all this time, with 15% more staff than you ever needed.

[royaloak]

A vast swathe of public sector workers have suffered significant pay cuts in real terms (my pay has been cut by almost 15% in real terms). My pension (should I live long enough to receive it) will be much less than the terms I signed up to when I began my career. Lots of people have had a raw deal for some time. The fact that some people's financial lives are about to be improved doesn't seem to be too bad to me.

I don't see why I ought to be angry or jealous just because someone else has been offered a deal which looks better than mine. I have enough to meet my needs and look after my family, their employers have decided that they're worth paying that amount to keep, whatever they've agreed is up to them - nobody is getting £100000s here (that's for the big boys at the top).

When you consider that it is the DaFT and Chris Grayling who have orchestrated this massive pay rise while the same Government refuses to allow public sector workers any pay rise is nothing more than an insult to those other workers.

 

Of course now they have managed to force this through on Southern it will no doubt set a precedent for all other DOO/DCO schemes throughout the Country!

[D854_Tiger]

My 11 year old likes being the goalkeeper, would you like to discuss that in person?

I dont like people calling my son an idiot just because his opinions are different from yours!

 

I was quoting a popular myth held to by Premiership footballers.

 

The theory goes that goalkeepers only get noticed when they make a mistake, normally sending the crowd into abject despair, whereas when a striker makes a mistake the crowd just thinks better luck next time, so where would you rather play.

 

Apologies, if you're offended, but I played a lot of football in my younger days and developed quite a thick skin myself, the way I played (up front) you had to with, "Yee yaw" ringing in your ears, I hope your son develops a thick skin too, most especially when he makes a mistake, trust me he will need it.

[lmsforever]

Well that was worth causing misery to the passengers wasn't it,bet there are many other workers wish they could get this for four days work and then the chance of overtime at an high rate,my last job the management cut all our perks? and decided that a relative small amount would cover it.When we complained we were told if you don't like it theres the door and then set out to catch us out for any infringement real or invented .Replacements were workers from abroad and paid at a lower rate needless to say the company is now in trouble ,luckily it was my last two months working there.Wonder how long the other union is going to hold out for similar or maybe they don't want a resolution until they get to control the railway?

[PhilJ W]

Yeah but without any little guys to boss around, the big guys haven't got a job either.

 

I was told a story, from back in the 1980s when Michael Edwards was brought in to sort out BL.

 

He called his management team and said, "Go away and find me 15% cost savings."

 

When a meeting was reconvened a rather desperate looking production manager had to admit, "I can't do it, the production facility dictates the staffing levels but if I had more modern production facilities maybe (and he went on to specify what he needed)."

 

One of the smug commercial managers had it sorted though (he even had a little list prepared), Edwards took a look and said, "Well done, now add your own name to that list unless you can explain to me why you have been running a department, all this time, with 15% more staff than you ever needed.

A similar thing happened when Tata took over Jaguar/Land Rover.

[njee20]

.Wonder how long the other union is going to hold out for similar or maybe they don't want a resolution until they get to control the railway?

The RMT? Well given, as Claude says, the minuscule impact their strikes now have they’ve rather lost their ‘bargaining’ ability (by which I mean their ability to hold the public to ransom), so now they’re just a bit like that annoying drunk guy in the corner of the pub shouting at no one in particular whilst everyone else just nods casually now and again.

[scouser]

Good grief, this makes me despare , just think about this.

Only the people at the top get big pay rises, the media always works on the idea of turning people against each other, stop believing what they say!

If you use trains to get to work, the drivers are the most important people for your transport. Try doing your journey without them.

This is a short term situation, as soon as they can be replaced with automation they will be unemployed. Then you can look forward to paying them benefits.

Oh, and the next time a manager turns up late passengers won't notice!

Edited November 10, 2017 by scouser

[njee20]

So you're saying they're not getting a pay rise? There may be a slant (ie it's not an unconditional payrise, and that gets overlooked), but I'd suggest  "not believing them" is akin to "bury your head in the sand".

 

I'm a big defender of drivers, particularly among friends who always just do the "pfft, all they do is push a lever, they don't even have to steer" thing. But... you have to admit £62k, with 'standard' overtime (leaving them on a 44 hour, 5 day week) at £79k is a pretty handsome reward. Yes, they could end up in front of the CPS, I get all that, but there are a hell of a lot of jobs that pay less with similar threats, or worse, frankly.

[PenrithBeacon]

My 11 year old likes being the goalkeeper, would you like to discuss that in person?

I dont like people calling my son an idiot just because his opinions are different from yours!

 

Believe it or not, not everyone wants to be the glory boy, some prefer to be the in the background!

Strange post!

[Clearwater]

Good grief, this makes me despare , just think about this.

Only the people at the top get big pay rises, the media always works on the idea of turning people against each other, stop believing what they say!

If you use trains to get to work, the drivers are the most important people for your transport. Try doing your journey without them.

This is a short term situation, as soon as they can be replaced with automation they will be unemployed. Then you can look forward to paying them benefits.

Oh, and the next time a manager turns up late passengers won't notice!

It’s always a bit fatuous in my view to argue that any one person is the “most important” in the chain that gets me to work. What about the engineer that checked the train, the signaller, the m&e engineers who designed and built the stock, the power station operators, the tea boy who made the tea for the miner, the midwife who delievred him or dispatched the power from the offshore wind, not forgetting that if the manager was late and missed a meeting to approve the payroll run and no-one got paid etc etc etc ad nauseam. It’s simply the fAct that in a modern economy, there is a massive interdependency between a wide variety of people for society to function. There’s then the question of how the benefits of that society are split fairly between its participants.

 

Om the CPS argument, I agree that other jobs face the same risk. Even senior management. h&S legislation is strict with potentially massive fines for breach and, in some cases, personal liability for directors. In those cases, unlike an individual driver, the director is taking responsibility for the over arching implementation of a robust h&S system and culture and therefore potentially the actions of many hundreds reporting to them. Who’s shoes would you rather be in? Those where you, and you alone, can control the risk or where you are responsible for others’ actions?

[PaulRhB]

Surely we must be on the way to driverless trains on the national network. We already have it in a few places and we are well on the way to autonomous cars so it must be quite easily possible with the technology we have today. To me it would make more sense to keep guards on trains but invest in removing the need for drivers. The more drivers are paid, the greater the incentive to invest in driverless technology.

Driverless trains on sealed lines is one thing, using them on the main network with thousands of occupation crossings and livestock getting through fences is quite different. A computer can't get out and isolate valves to get round air leaks and get the train moving again. There's a lot more than just train position and signalling to implementing it on the current network. It will need very sophisticated obstruction detection to pick out actual and potential hazards a distance. An example was a few years ago where a crane was moving large tanks around in a yard next to the line and a driver noticed them swing out over the fence on the opposite line, a current tech computer dectector wouldn't have recognised the threat allowing us to warn the down train and get response staff there fast.

No doubt it will come but there's a huge amount of investment needed if you want the same safety and response performance that a driver can provide.

 

As to the pay deal it's about using the money to appeal to the wallet over colleagues. Not surprisingly they have to look to their own mortgages and kids education when a deal like that is offered. Lots look at the jobs purely as a lucrative career. I pointed out the irony of one guys argument about the inefficiency when he's the first one to claim extra pay on pedantic details especially if it involves him getting paid while others work, perfectly ok for him to get paid for it though!

I have to say that guards at local meetings have been quite eloquent about their concerns but that message isn't being well delivered or reported in the media.

Edited November 10, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Dunsignalling]

The RMT? Well given, as Claude says, the minuscule impact their strikes now have they’ve rather lost their ‘bargaining’ ability (by which I mean their ability to hold the public to ransom), so now they’re just a bit like that annoying drunk guy in the corner of the pub shouting at no one in particular whilst everyone else just nods casually now and again.

Miniscule effect? An hour and a half on a bus between Honiton and Exeter instead of 25 minutes on a train? 

 

Not that I went, I did my planned shopping off Amazon instead and had a beer out of the fridge. 

 

John

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[njee20]

Whilst current trains can't, of course there's a power to recognise something like a crane swinging things into the path of other trains. Indeed I'd go as far as saying that a network of self-driving trains would be far better at identifying a threat and responding to it - integration with a central network would mean that all trains would automatically be notified of the threat and diverted/stopped/slowed as appropriate, they could be run far closer together because you don't need to know about response times, or wait until the next signal block to update on the location of a train in front. Same with livestock, in the instant a train senses a cow next to the line then all other trains in the area can be notified of it, and can respond appropriately.

Again, if we can deliver autonomous cars then we can do trains, whether there's an appetite is something else. There are far more obstacles to content with on the road compared to the railway, where (theoretically speaking) it's a hermetically sealed system. Yes, you get trespassers etc, but that's wholly different to having to interact with pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers etc. Clearly we're not there at the moment, but IMO it's naive to assume it can't/won't happen, and benefit payments for the unemployed drivers will be less than their salaries, that certainly won't be a barrier! But we digress...

[njee20]

Miniscule effect? An hour and a half on a bus between Honiton and Exeter instead of 25 minutes on a train? 

 

Not that I went, I did my planned shopping off Amazon instead and had a beer out of the fridge. 

Fair enough, South Western haven't got as adept at Southern at dealing with it, no difference in service Wednesday or yesterday for us! I'm not sure it says much when you can strike with zero impact.

[Reorte]

It’s always a bit fatuous in my view to argue that any one person is the “most important” in the chain that gets me to work.

Lose the managers and business will carry on (at least for a while), lose the staff and it stops straight away. But I've seen the huge difference good and bad management can make, so yes, all needed and all need to be doing their job right.

 

On the driverless trains front, it'll happen. As has been pointed out it's easier than driverless cars after all. This isn't the sort of future I want to see but it's going to happen.

[njee20]

Lose the managers and business will carry on (at least for a while), lose the staff and it stops straight away. But I've seen the huge difference good and bad management can make, so yes, all needed and all need to be doing their job right.

 

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment, that's a bit like saying if the farmers stop producing milk the supermarkets will have stock for a while, if the supermarket shuts you can't get some instantly, ergo the supermarket is more important than the supplier?

[Dunsignalling]

Whilst current trains can't, of course there's a power to recognise something like a crane swinging things into the path of other trains. Indeed I'd go as far as saying that a network of self-driving trains would be far better at identifying a threat and responding to it - integration with a central network would mean that all trains would automatically be notified of the threat and diverted/stopped/slowed as appropriate, they could be run far closer together because you don't need to know about response times, or wait until the next signal block to update on the location of a train in front. Same with livestock, in the instant a train senses a cow next to the line then all other trains in the area can be notified of it, and can respond appropriately.

Again, if we can deliver autonomous cars then we can do trains, whether there's an appetite is something else. There are far more obstacles to content with on the road compared to the railway, where (theoretically speaking) it's a hermetically sealed system. Yes, you get trespassers etc, but that's wholly different to having to interact with pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers etc. Clearly we're not there at the moment, but IMO it's naive to assume it can't/won't happen, and benefit payments for the unemployed drivers will be less than their salaries, that certainly won't be a barrier! But we digress...

The barrier to that will be the need to equip all the trains that can accept the technology and replace all the ones that can't.

 

Given that trains last at least 30 years, around twice the lifespan of even a relatively pampered car, there will be a huge transitional period during which some trains and/or lines have a mixture of arrangements.

 

The problem with all new technologies introduced to our railways is that, in the time it takes to roll them out system-wide, they have themselves been superseded.

 

This is OK if you can leap-frog over a stage, as with the NRN > CSR > GSMR transition where most of the system went straight from NRN to GSMR which was a massive shift, whilst many of those who had CSR were rather less than impressed with the initial capabilities of the new system.

 

John

Edited November 13, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[phil-b259]

What I couldn't work out is that 80% voted to accept this.

So which 20% voted to reject it? 5% a year for 5 years. I think if you added up the last 5 years for most people you wouldn't get to 5%...

 

There always was going to be a hard core of ASLEF drivers who agree with the RMTs take on the situation and believe ASLEF has let the trade union movement down / stabbed their RMT  brothers and sisters in the back. For such types (who probably are fully signed up to the aim of turning the UK into a communist utopia) ANY deal with Southern was going to be rejected by them.

 

As with General elections, groupings win not by appealing to their hard core supporters or life long opposers - but by persuading enough of the middle ground (i.e. swing voters / the undecided) to go with them.

 

I believe that in the previous offer that was rejected a few months ago, the margin of failure was such that it was only 16 drivers voting to reject it that saw the deal fail. With such a tight margin it was obvious that it wouldn't take much to tip the balance.

[PaulRhB]

Whilst current trains can't, of course there's a power to recognise something like a crane swinging things into the path of other trains. Indeed I'd go as far as saying that a network of self-driving trains would be far better at identifying a threat and responding to it - integration with a central network would mean that all trains would automatically be notified of the threat and diverted/stopped/slowed as appropriate, they could be run far closer together because you don't need to know about response times, or wait until the next signal block to update on the location of a train in front. Same with livestock, in the instant a train senses a cow next to the line then all other trains in the area can be notified of it, and can respond appropriately.

Again, if we can deliver autonomous cars then we can do trains, whether there's an appetite is something else. There are far more obstacles to content with on the road compared to the railway, where (theoretically speaking) it's a hermetically sealed system. Yes, you get trespassers etc, but that's wholly different to having to interact with pedestrians, cyclists, other drivers etc. Clearly we're not there at the moment, but IMO it's naive to assume it can't/won't happen, and benefit payments for the unemployed drivers will be less than their salaries, that certainly won't be a barrier! But we digress...

Some of the technology is there but it's the cost of applying it and fitting it to a safety framework. How does a computer assess if there's stuff hanging off the outside foul after an impact, how does it assess what it has hit, human or animal? These things have huge legal consequences too. If a dog is reported lineside it is often followed by a distracted, anxious owner. I've had to deal with owners crying and incredibly distraught and not fully thinking where they are in relation to the line, I've had people sitting on parapets obviously preparing to jump. Programming all the possibilities and recognising the potential is going to need very sophisticated AI to replace a driver. We have lots of monitoring for slips in known places but drivers can recognise earth movement too. Another example is bridge bashes where a computer scanning the track would possibly only pick it up once the rails are distorted but a driver can see the chaos on the road to their side. On one occasion a tractor went under the bridge with a full trailer and came out the other side with a flatbed. Gates left open that encourage the next user to just go straight across etc the possibilities are vast and you need to equip every train with the sensors to detect this. The sums are vast whether you modify train or infrastructure and it needs a very high reliability rate.

I still see a huge gulf between what's possible and what's acceptable when it goes wrong at present.

Edited November 10, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Clearwater]

Lose the managers and business will carry on (at least for a while), lose the staff and it stops straight away. But I've seen the huge difference good and bad management can make, so yes, all needed and all need to be doing their job right.

 

On the driverless trains front, it'll happen. As has been pointed out it's easier than driverless cars after all. This isn't the sort of future I want to see but it's going to happen.

I don’t think your first point is correct. Try really removing management, not just putting up with bad management. THings would collapse quicker than you think. Who sets shift patterns, arranges for suppliers to be paid, arranges for staff to be paid etc? By selective quoting you are missing the point that in modern society everyone depends on each other.

 

I do agree re driverless trains. It’s hard to imagine the future and see how things will change. If 20 years ago, someone had described to you how we’d all be able to have a mobile device that could access any global map and any database, you’d have looked askance. Ask the car factory workers of the 50s, if they could be replaced by robots, they’d have laughed at the suggestion that a machine could do their skilled job. History is littered with jobs that have become obsolete due to the march of technology.

[phil-b259]

Fair enough, South Western haven't got as adept at Southern at dealing with it, no difference in service Wednesday or yesterday for us! I'm not sure it says much when you can strike with zero impact.

 

The South West Railweay dispute is still only a few months old - not getting on for 2 years!

 

As I pointed out on one of the locked threads, strike action is only effective if it makes management sit up and cut a deal in the first few months. The longer the despite goes on, the more pay (and perks like car park passes and travel discounts) the strikers lose plus more and more managers etc are trained up to fill the gaps. As Mr Wilkinson crudely put it to his Conservative palls:-

 

"I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

 

With the Government digging in their heals and backing train operators in all this (and preventing deals being struck if you believe the RMT*) then if it goes on long enough the SWR (and others around the country) will end up like the Southern one where RMT strike action is totally ineffective - ironically the very thing the union wants to prevent in the first place so as to protect its ability to strike good pay deals for its members!

 

*See https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-chris-grayling/ and https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-pm-to-end-the-sabotage-of-rail-strike-talks/

Edited November 10, 2017 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

I don’t think your first point is correct. Try really removing management, not just putting up with bad management. THings would collapse quicker than you think. Who sets shift patterns, arranges for suppliers to be paid, arranges for staff to be paid etc? By selective quoting you are missing the point that in modern society everyone depends on each other.

I was being a little facetious, the real point I was making is that the discussion seemed to be going in the old "managers vs staff" direction and I was trying to say that ultimately both are needed, and neither should regard the other as an unnecessary nuisance that doesn't have a clue about the work. So I think we're saying the same thing.

[DY444]

 

The South West Railweay dispute is still only a few months old - not getting on for 2 years!

 

As I pointed out on one of the locked threads, strike action is only effective if it makes management sit up and cut a deal in the first few months. The longer the despite goes on, the more pay (and perks like car park passes and travel discounts) the strikers lose plus more and more managers etc are trained up to fill the gaps. As Mr Wilkinson crudely put it to his Conservative palls:-

 

"I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

 

With the Government digging in their heals and backing train operators in all this (and preventing deals being struck if you believe the RMT*) then if it goes on long enough the SWR (and others around the country) will end up like the Southern one where RMT strike action is totally ineffective - ironically the very thing the union wants to prevent in the first place so as to protect its ability to strike good pay deals for its members!

 

*See https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-chris-grayling/ and https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-pm-to-end-the-sabotage-of-rail-strike-talks/

 

 

I've seen it reported that all SWR drivers have DOO in their contracts and have done for years.  If true then the RMT will not stop it there either.

 

PS.  I believe the deals RMT want involve guaranteeing a 2nd person no matter what and the TOCs are not going to accept that.  Also I believe RMT were excluded from the Southern talks at the request of ASLEF!

Edited November 10, 2017 by DY444

[njee20]

Some of the technology is there but it's the cost of applying it and fitting it to a safety framework. How does a computer assess if there's stuff hanging off the outside foul after an impact, how does it assess what it has hit, human or animal? These things have huge legal consequences too. If a dog is reported lineside it is often followed by a distracted, anxious owner. I've had to deal with owners crying and incredibly distraught and not fully thinking where they are in relation to the line, I've had people sitting on parapets obviously preparing to jump. Programming all the possibilities and recognising the potential is going to need very sophisticated AI to replace a driver. We have lots of monitoring for slips in known places but drivers can recognise earth movement too. Another example is bridge bashes where a computer scanning the track would possibly only pick it up once the rails are distorted but a driver can see the chaos on the road to their side. On one occasion a tractor went under the bridge with a full trailer and came out the other side with a flatbed. Gates left open that encourage the next user to just go straight across etc the possibilities are vast and you need to equip every train with the sensors to detect this. The sums are vast whether you modify train or infrastructure and it needs a very high reliability rate.

I still see a huge gulf between what's possible and what's acceptable when it goes wrong at present.

I've said nothing to the contrary, but I still think it's naive to think a machine can't out perform a human in all of those tasks, whilst making fewer mistakes. People are generally the weak link. Of course it'll need sophisticated AI, I'm not saying we could just shoehorn an old Pentium 2 into the cab of an Electrostar and crack on. It's decades away, but I'd be surprised if it didn't happen.

 

You can come up with as many obscure examples about dog owners on one leg chasing people off parapets, but again, cars have to deal with all of that, and far more, and they're doing a pretty good job of it so far. Not perfect, but I'm not sure trains will face many things that we won't have overcome whilst learning about cars.

Still, that's a totally different discussion, I get it's emotive, but it'll happen.

[PhilJ W]

 

The South West Railweay dispute is still only a few months old - not getting on for 2 years!

 

As I pointed out on one of the locked threads, strike action is only effective if it makes management sit up and cut a deal in the first few months. The longer the despite goes on, the more pay (and perks like car park passes and travel discounts) the strikers lose plus more and more managers etc are trained up to fill the gaps. As Mr Wilkinson crudely put it to his Conservative palls:-

 

"I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

 

With the Government digging in their heals and backing train operators in all this (and preventing deals being struck if you believe the RMT*) then if it goes on long enough the SWR (and others around the country) will end up like the Southern one where RMT strike action is totally ineffective - ironically the very thing the union wants to prevent in the first place so as to protect its ability to strike good pay deals for its members!

 

*See https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-slams-chris-grayling/ and https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-pm-to-end-the-sabotage-of-rail-strike-talks/

 

I too can see the dead hand of political interfearance. It is so blatant that even those who are anti trade union can see it.