Any idea what this wagon is please?

[ullypug]

I bought this at the weekend and have no idea what it is; either the kit manufacturer or the prototype.

It looks LNWR or Midland to me, but I've no idea in reality.

Anyone out there have a clue?

[tamperman36]

IMHO it appears to be some sort of machinery carrying wagon, hence the slight depression in the center. I would believe it should have some tie down loops either on the deck or solebars.

[eastglosmog]

Having perused my copy of Midland Wagons Vol 2, it looks similar to an MR traction wagon (D333 possibly?) for carrying bulky loads like removal vans,  Could be some other railway's wagon for a similar purpose, though.

[Fat Controller]

I think it's what was called, in later days, a 'Hymac',or High Machinery wagon; they were used to carry machinery and vehicles that didn't require the very low floor of a Lowmac. In comparison to the latter, they were quite rare. Here's a link to some photos:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/byhymacex

I believe Paul's photo shows one used as a spacer on trains carrying long pre-cast concrete bridge beams.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Depending on the originating railway, a further alternative description is an 'Implement' wagon (IMP).

 

The offset brake hanger puts me in mind of L&Y wagon design. Pretty sure it is not an LNER group constituent.

[jwealleans]

D&S GNR Implement wagon? I’m not at home so I can’t compare to mine.

[eastglosmog]

Bit in here may indicate what the model is of and who it is by. http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr1.html paragraph near the bottom by Michael Barnsley regarding MSWJR machinery wagon No.212 which was to Midland Railway diagram D333. Says Mignon Model Studios (MMS) produced a 4mm etched brass kit of it.

 

Edited to correct name of supplier

Edited December 5, 2017 by eastglosmog

[melmerby]

There is a D333 wagon in Bob Essery's Midland Wagons vol.2 under "Traction Wagons" pp 53-55

Looks the part.

 

Keith

[Il Grifone]

It looks like a MR wagon to me. The large rectangular number plate on the solebar is typical. The buffers look Midland too. I'll have a look in my copy of Midland Wagons Vol. 2.

[ullypug]

There is a D333 wagon in Bob Essery's Midland Wagons vol.2 under "Traction Wagons" pp 53-55

Looks the part.

 

Keith

It looks like a MR wagon to me. The large rectangular number plate on the solebar is typical. The buffers look Midland too. I'll have a look in my copy of Midland Wagons Vol. 2.

I've had a look through the book and agree it looks like a traction wagon, either diag D333 or D730.

Thanks for all the replies.

[Guy Rixon]

I checked it against the LNWR "furniture" wagons D38 and D38A: it is neither of those. The buffers are consistent with D38, because one set of rubber-sprung, self-contained buffers looks like any other. D38A had RCH buffers, so not that. The brakes and axleboxes do not match. Most importantly, the model has two full-width ramps at each end, while the LNWR wagons have four narrower ramps.

 

The LNWR wagons also have the plates in the deck over the wheels, probably for the same reason. This is where the flanges would foul the floor planks at full travel of the suspension, so the planks are cut away and the holes plated over. Presumably the model has to have rigid suspension, as it has a lower-than-scale false floor with no cut-outs. Do the wheels actually fit?

[Il Grifone]

Looking at MW Vol.2, It appears closest to the wagon illustrated in Plate 309 to Drawing No. 708, which has grease axleboxes and offset brake gear, with the typical MR short lever on one side only, like the model.

 

As it dates from 1887, when such primitive features were commonplace, I would think it likely that some updating of these features took place later, though it might have been the reason for the later new builds to D730.

 

The floor fouling problems are probably solved by the use of 2' 8½" diameter wheels, though there still isn't a lot of clearance.

 

Interestingly the large load in plate 311 (whatever it is) is secured by a hefty chain around the buffers, contrary to the normal rules for securing loads.

[ullypug]

2'8 1/2" wheels should fit though I've yet to work out how I'll add a degree of springing or compensation in P4.

The kit does have a representation of the plates in the deck to get over the restricted wheel clearance.

I wonder when they were scrapped?

[Compound2632]

Agreeing with the Midland D333 identification, I'd note the following:

 

1. The axleboxes look as if they are intended to represent the Ellis 10A type but don't really succeed in doing so. MJT do a nice casting of this type, along with the earlier 8A, as seen in Midland Wagons Vol 2 Plate 309. I expect the 20 to Lot 190 of 1887 were built with 8A 'boxes and the 70 built to later lots in the 1890s had the 10A 'boxes (per Plate 311).

 

2. The photos show quite prominently the square ends of two cross-members visible below the solebar. These are at 6' centres according to the diagram, and look to be about 6" square. These are lacking from the model. These are the outward manifestation of some deeper longitudinal framing, which does project below the level of the bottom of the solebar - but would seriously get in the way of any compensation. (But not springing?)

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a copy of the relevant drawing 708 but it's probably inaccessible for a few months while the collection decants from the Derby Silk Mill to temporary accommodation.

[Steamport Southport]

It's not a David Geen kit is it?

 

 

I'm sure he had a D333 in the range.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited December 7, 2017 by Steamport Southport

[Il Grifone]

From what I remember from Vol.2, they were all scrapped by the thirties and replaced with D730. There does not appear to be a lot of difference between the diagrams, from what I can see, so an update could be possible.

 

I'll have to dig the book out again....

[Nick Holliday]

2'8 1/2" wheels should fit though I've yet to work out how I'll add a degree of springing or compensation in P4.

The kit does have a representation of the plates in the deck to get over the restricted wheel clearance.

I wonder when they were scrapped?

I think Ambis Engineering do an etched compensation unit for small diameter wheels, but it is very difficult to navigate their website to confirm this. I think it is their product ISwo-3 - small wheel inside bearings, but you may need to check this with them first.

[Spitfire2865]

 

Interestingly the large load in plate 311 (whatever it is) is secured by a hefty chain around the buffers, contrary to the normal rules for securing loads.

Id be weary of ever using photos deliberately taken of loaded wagons as proof of practice.  Very often those photos were to demonstrate what NOT to do.  Look at photos of wagons in any freight yard for typical loading.  

 

It's not a David Geen kit is it?

 

 

I'm sure he had a D333 in the range.

 

Jason

Davids kits are all whitemetal I believe, not to mention his D333 kit has been in the works for some time.  

[eastglosmog]

Doing a bit of Googling, I found this:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/mms-kit-for-a-midland-railway-traction-wagon-diag-d333-730-00-gauge/291117884971?hash=item43c7fa662b

Think this MMS kit must be it.  As the MSWJR wagon 212 is virtually identical to a D333, presumably this is also what Michael Barnsley was referring to.  Don't think MMS exists any more as a supplier of etched brass wagons - the only MMS model makers I can find supply white metal military kits.

Edited December 7, 2017 by eastglosmog

[melmerby]

Doing a bit of Googling, I found this:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/mms-kit-for-a-midland-railway-traction-wagon-diag-d333-730-00-gauge/291117884971?hash=item43c7fa662b

Think this MMS kit must be it.  As the MSWJR wagon 212 is virtually identical to a D333, presumably this is also what Michael Barnsley was referring to.  Don't think MMS exists any more as a supplier of etched brass wagons - the only MMS model makers I can find supply white metal military kits.

MMS Looks like Mignon Model Services which do not appear to still exist. The address is a private house.

 

Keith

[Compound2632]

The injection moulded axleboxes and springs look to be the Slater's item 41550, currently available, and so not what's used in the OP's model. The mms kit is apparently otherwise all etched brass whereas the Op's model is whitemetal, I think.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Compound2632

[ullypug]

Thanks for all the replies folks.

The kit has a nickel silver deck sitting on a white metal frame (solebar and headstocks) supported on white metal w irons.

There was a piece of ABS LNWR buffer packaging in the bag (albeit with the seller's details on it) so the white metal buffers may be from this source, though that could be a coincidence.

I'll be able to get some P4 wheels and will either try the Ambis compensation units or see if I can modify some Bill Bedford sprung units 

[Fat Controller]

2'8 1/2" wheels should fit though I've yet to work out how I'll add a degree of springing or compensation in P4.

The kit does have a representation of the plates in the deck to get over the restricted wheel clearance.

I wonder when they were scrapped?

They probably went in the early 1950s; BR built like-for-like replacements for much of the 'Specials' fleet, once the originals had reached the 50-year mark.

[Compound2632]

They probably went in the early 1950s; BR built like-for-like replacements for much of the 'Specials' fleet, once the originals had reached the 50-year mark.

 

Essery, Midland Wagons, gives three numbers of the last survivors but doesn't say when they went. By the early 50s, they'd be 55 - 60 years old.

[Fat Controller]

Essery, Midland Wagons, gives three numbers of the last survivors but doesn't say when they went. By the early 50s, they'd be 55 - 60 years old.

That wouldn't be unusual for a 'Special'