royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 My first thought was to wonder why no one else did anything? Surely someone might have seen him wanting to board, maybe pressed the door open button for him, if not the revenue protection staff, a passenger. And whether or not it's their "job", if I'd been one of them and been able to intervene, I'm sure I would have. So you would be happy to put your job on the line to help a wheelchair passenger onto the train would you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I believe that the official procedure is for the 'on board supervisor' to insert his control key into the nearest door control Pannel (thus preventing the driver from closing them) until they have asatained there is nobody requiring assistance. Of course people make mistakes and if the OBS is sufficiently distracted at the crucial time then mistakes can happen. Didnt Southern trumpet one of the advantages of DOO was the fact that the OBS wouldnt have to leave dealing with the passengers to open the doors, and then, once the Guards were turned into OBS (against their will) issue them all an instruction that they were to be at a door before the train arrived at the next station so they could check if anyone needed their assistance, which sort of negates one of the supposed advantages of demoting them in the first place? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Nice try, to make this yet another DOO debate. 1. Coastway is not part of the proposed DOO coverage, as far as I am aware, unless matters have changed significantly? 2. There was a Conductor (or Guard, or OBS or whatever name they go by in that TOC), if the OP's description is correct. 3. It was solely the Conductor's responsibility. (I know, I was in charge of Conductors and Senior Conductors for 3 years of my BR career). 4. The Conductor failed to deal with a situation with which he/she should have dealt (even if it consisted of telling the would be passenger that he could not be accommodated). 5. We do not know why the Conductor did not take action, so cannot make any judgement on fault without his/her side of the story. There may have been completely legitimate reasons for his/her actions or non-action, such as poor sighting, poor lighting, operational incident etc. It cannot be revenue protection with two RPI's present. 6. What we do know is that, despite this train not being DOO, a customer was left stranded, which completely counters any argument against DOO, so I suggest you avoid making any ammunition out of it. Finally, it is entirely regrettable and unpardonable that a disabled passenger was left stranded in this way. and I can only hope that this incident was complained about and investigated thoroughly, to ensure no repetition. Again, I have relevance, because my wife is disabled. Edited December 12, 2017 by Mike Storey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) The only reason the Coastway is not DOO is because it uses the 313s, once enough 377s are available the 313s will be withdrawn and the Coastway will then be DOO, station lighting has already been upgraded ahead of the switch over. Edited December 12, 2017 by royaloak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2017 In what way is it an emergency? For that passenger, in this weather, it could well be. Andi (and I'm an ex driver too) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 Well, sorry for picking the location up. I think this is part of the DOO debate. I have no doubt that DOO can be operated safely and efficiently in the right context. The problem is that what is happening here is not in the right context. If you want to run DOO there should be platform staff (as on London Overground), preferably with an ability to communicate problems to the driver, but at the very least drivers taking right of way from them. Platform staff here would (probably) have seen the intending passenger and done the necessary. It is quite difficult for guards to deal with this issue on crewed trains (although from what I have seen they do so reasonably efficiently), but I don't see how a driver does so - not possible. Sorry to be slightly off topic (but I think this is a DOO issue), on a recent trip to Germany I noticed that the Frankfurt S Bahn uses DOO, no doubt similar to others in Germany. In contrast to practice in the UK, I noticed that there was virtually no gap between train floor and platform on the stations I used, thus no possibility of a fall between train and platform. It is obviously possible that there are stations with a train/platform gap, but I didn't see them and much of these lines are new build. The door sensors are also very sensitive - a wave through the gap causes them to re-open. I know this causes reliability problems, but that did not seem to be a problem here (but I could well be wrong on that). Not a problem with picking up the location at all...my fault for leaving it in the footer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) If you saw this, you should have used the pass-com (emergency alarm) Andi Point taken Dagworth, In mitigation, I was always taught from a very young age not to pull the emergency alarm as it was only for emergencies such as fire or worse incidents. However, if an incident like this counts as an emergency, then I will happily do so in the future. Knowing this now, it is still curious that the two Revenue Protection officers did nothing like that too. Edited December 12, 2017 by Harry Lime Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I suppose without having been present to see the event actually unfold it is difficult to assess what might have been done better. If the driver had seen the intending passenger might he have drawn the attention of the guard to the fact? (I have often seen drivers do this) Ditto the revenue protection staff. And if the mobility scooter was of a type unsuitable to be conveyed by train might one of the staff not explained it to the intending passenger? Perhaps all three grades of staff were operating in their own 'bubble' and ignorant of the other? Either way it appears not t have been handled well, Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 The only reason the Coastway is not DOO is because it uses the 313s, once enough 377s are available the 313s will be withdrawn and the Coastway will then be DOO, station lighting has already been upgraded ahead of the switch over. 313s are used in DOO mode on GNSE, so what's the difference on Coastway? Regards, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2017 So you would be happy to put your job on the line to help a wheelchair passenger onto the train would you? I could have sworn it was called being a 'Human Being' at one time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 313s are used in DOO mode on GNSE, so what's the difference on Coastway? Regards, Ian. No station DOO infrastructure at most Southern stations outside the metro area. 377s have train mounted cameras and 313s don't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 313s are used in DOO mode on GNSE, so what's the difference on Coastway? Regards, Ian. None of the Coastway stations have the necessary DOO cameras and Mirrors - the 313s not having on board cameras and monitors in the cab like modern units do. All stations on the Great Northern section were kitted out with the necessary platform kit by British Rail so the 313s have no problem being DOO there despite the lack of on board kit. The same applies to the 315s on the ex GE lines or the 455s on Southern etc or even the 1992 built Networkers on SE. These days it is seen as best practice NOT to install platform equipment and as such lines where said platform equipment was not already provided under British Rail, DOO cannot be used with older units like the 313s. As has been commented on, ditch the 313s in favour of modern EMUs that come with on board DOO equipment as standard and DOO will surely follow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 I could have sworn it was called being a 'Human Being' at one time. That was before the days of blame culture, elf & safety and 'no win, no fee' solicitors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Maybe the train wasn't stopping where said wheelchair passenger was going? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2017 As a slight but relevant swerve off topic, how do wheelchair/mobility scooter passengers get on a DOO train if the driver can't,(justifiably), leave the cab to sort the access ramp out? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lime Posted December 12, 2017 Author Share Posted December 12, 2017 Maybe the train wasn't stopping where said wheelchair passenger was going? It was an all-stops service from Brighton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 As a slight but relevant swerve off topic, how do wheelchair/mobility scooter passengers get on a DOO train if the driver can't,(justifiably), leave the cab to sort the access ramp out? Mike. If there is nobody else, I'm guessing they don't? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrySVR Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Pity a human being on the train couldn't help another human being get on said train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Certainly I could not see any staff on the platform at that time. However, I was also interested to know why the two revenue protection officers did nothing - again, I suppose that they have their roles, too... Probably because they were revenue protection, it is outside their remit to carry out duties they have not been trained in, and before anyone starts down the 'its only putting a ramp down' routine the simple fact of the matter is they could have their employment ended by doing so especially if something went wrong! 'Revenue Protection' in our area seem to be largely security company contractors. Most know ####-all about railways and not much more about what tickets look like. Edited December 12, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 I suppose without having been present to see the event actually unfold it is difficult to assess what might have been done better. If the driver had seen the intending passenger might he have drawn the attention of the guard to the fact? (I have often seen drivers do this) Ditto the revenue protection staff. And if the mobility scooter was of a type unsuitable to be conveyed by train might one of the staff not explained it to the intending passenger? Perhaps all three grades of staff were operating in their own 'bubble' and ignorant of the other? Either way it appears not t have been handled well, Cheers This post sums it up really. Something is not right here, but without knowing all the facts (and that is in no way intended to criticise the OP) we don't really know what went wrong. All we can say is things like this shouldn't happen and hopefully incidents like this are properly reported and addressed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Pity a human being on the train couldn't help another human being get on said train. A human being with a carriage key to unlock the access ramp? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrySVR Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Trying to get on train I should have said Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerrySVR Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 A human being with a carriage key to unlock the access ramp? Thinking outside box, contact guard or use emergency buttons to get them to resolve issue? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Thinking outside box, contact guard or use emergency buttons to get them to resolve issue? This is getting circular, we don't know where the conductor was or what he was doing, and unfortunately its not classed as an emergency so you could be fined for improper use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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