Passenger left behind...

[Harry Lime]

A couple more questions arise here for me.  The first is that if we're talking mobility scooter, that implies the person can get out of it.  Had it been me, I'm sure I'd either have taken a (presumably) few steps to the door and pressed the button to open it, or moved closer and opened it, to make sure people saw/knew I was trying to board, and stop the train going without me.  I don't know the circumstances though, so maybe that wasn't possible.  

 

 

The person concerned would not have been able to walk onto the train as they were a double amputee...and had no crutches as far as I could see.

[JDW]

Ah I see, my apologies, I read mobility scooter (as opposed to electric wheelchair) and imagined someone like an elderly person with limited mobility who can't walk any great distance.  

[jim.snowdon]

It wants investigating via the proper channels, which in this instance is Southern Railway, as the TOC responsible for both the train and the station. That assumes, though, that the person affected has actually made a complaint - many people simply don't bother, which is unfortunate, as the TOC has a legal obligation not to discriminate.

 

There is a potential complication in all of this, in that according to the original post, the person concerned was in a mobility scooter. The Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations are framed around a standard push along wheelchair, which is rather lighter than many mobility scooters. The portable ramps are not designed for such weights, and failure of the ramp could result in considerably greater consequences. Some TOCs will refuse to carry them, not without reason.

Not for the first time, I would not be at all surprised if this was yet another example of the consequences of Whitehall gold plating and reinterpreting the rather simpler EU directive relating to Persons of Reduced Mobility.

 

Jim

[NittenDormer]

Having been beaten to all the wild speculation, I would be interested to find out more about what ACTUALLY happened, if the OP (as the person with the most facts) ever finds out. Also, I would like to thank this thread for the words 'Donohue v Stevenson' and for introducing me to Coach and Bus magazine.

[chriswright03]

Likewise on the buses there is a limit as to what can be carried.  Basically the ones with lights on and a tent over the top can't!

 

The ramps are only certified for a certain weight (I forget what it is) and the driver has to operate it manually so he does have to get out of his cab.  On the buses there has also been another complication in that the area designated for wheelchair use is also used by those with buggies/pushchairs and if someone is there already with one you have to 'ask' them to move to allow a disabled person on.  This has caused loads of problems including long running court cases because people have refused to fold the buggy or get off the bus to allow a disabled person on and then the driver and Company get the blame.

 

At various times we were instructed to demand that they left the bus/refuse to drive if they didn't/allow them to travel and refuse the disabled person stating the reason.  All most confusing as it would sometimes change on a weekly basis and depending on who the controller was.

 

Thing is as much as disabled travellers have rights so do parents with young children in prams. 

 

It isn't right to have to leave anyone at a station or on the side of the road in any weather but it also isn't clear as to who should have right over another. 

 

In this case it was simply a case of the person appeared to have been missed and I agree it should be investigated and whilst I understand the OP's initial reluctance to name the TOC or location I believe the right thing would be to ring the Company and give them the details to assist with an enquiry to make sure it doesn't happen again if avoidable.  It is not a case of dropping anyone in it more a case of doing the right thing.

[w124bob]

Says it all, really? Too much trouble to pick up passengers....

Dava

Drivers are not normally trained in the use of loading ramps on normal guard worked trains. Depending on unit type and location he may not even be able to see that much from the cab, some companies may not employ the revenue staff, Northern out source to G4S(unless that has changed with the franchise)Northern uniform but with a small extra G4S badge. There somtimes company instruction regarding the number of scooters/wheelchairs as well. No it's not good to leave someone but we really don't know the full details.

[Boris]

Drivers are not normally trained in the use of loading ramps on normal guard worked trains. Depending on unit type and location he may not even be able to see that much from the cab, some companies may not employ the revenue staff, Northern out source to G4S(unless that has changed with the franchise)Northern uniform but with a small extra G4S badge. There somtimes company instruction regarding the number of scooters/wheelchairs as well. No it's not good to leave someone but we really don't know the full details.

Don't forget Northern doesn't carry mobility scooters unless they fold.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Southern have a system for assisted travel detailed on their website on the page "Making Rail Accessible"

 

This is an extract:-

 

If you are disabled or have difficulty travelling, you can get advice about accessibility – both on our trains and at any of our stations – before you travel.

And when you come to one of our stations, we can offer you the help you need.

Download our Making Rail Accessible Guide: Helping older and disabled passengers

Download the Making Rail Accessible guide to policy and practices

How to book assisted travel

It’s best to contact us 24 hours before you travel if you want to book assistance. This gives us time to make the right arrangements. There are several ways to book:

Fill in our assistance booking form online

 

Email us on: myjourney@southernrailway.com

Call us on: 0800 138 1016 (your information may be recorded)

We can tell you about your nearest station with step-free access and give information about ramps and lifts. And we can arrange help – both at stations and on trains – as well as providing train times and travel information

 

For full details see

https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/travel-help/assisted-travel

[meil]

Following the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Act 2015 its unlikely to occur, and has taken on the status of urban myth, for legal protections see "Good Samaritan Act" on your favourite web search engine for a list by country.  English torte law allows protections for people attempting to do the right thing in an emergency, and I believe Donoghue v Stevenson of 1932 set the precedent for what is and is not negligence?

All that act does is set out what the court has to take into consideration. It doesn't stop you being hauled before the court.

[Boris]

All that act does is set out what the court has to take into consideration. It doesn't stop you being hauled before the court.

No, but coupled with the CPS evidence and public interest tests along with legal precedent guarantees enough protection for someone who performs CPR for example.  Find me an example under UK law where someone has rendered assistance (recently not 100 years ago) and then been taken to court by the injured party.  Please, I've not found one yet and I'm interested to see it, there's tons of repeated urban myth and scaremongering but I've not found anything concrete in the UK.

[jjb1970]

A lot of the urban myths seem to originate from ill informed and officious H&S people and then get picked up by the media. I've heard some real howlers from people who should know better given their role. Including being told that because I was a trained first aider I risked all sorts of terrible consequences if I tried to help somebody and made a mistake. Yes it is b****x but I can't really blame people for taking stuff seriously if they hear it from a H&S person.

[royaloak]

As a slight but relevant swerve off topic, how do wheelchair/mobility scooter passengers get on a DOO train if the driver can't,(justifiably), leave the cab to sort the access ramp out?

 

Mike.

Contact Southern and ask them.

 

I do know the answer but a lot of people wont like it.

[royaloak]

While I quite agree that the driver should not leave his cab, what happened to the tradition that the loco crew looked down the train to ensure that all was well before moving off? Surely the train crew should be working as a team?

 

I don't like the idea of one man operated trains. Come an incident, you need one man to look after the train and its safety and a second man to look after the passengers and their safety. One man cannot do both.

The Guard will be observing the PTI as the train leaves, if there is an issue they will give one buzz to the driver who will instantly drop the brake, we dont use flags anymore so ne need for the driver to look back, on some trains it isnt practical for the driver to look back anyway.

 

On a DOO train there wont be anybody checking the PTI so once the driver has done his final check and taken power its basically tough, fall down the gap and you have had it because nobody will be able to stop the train in time even if platform staff are present because they dont have direct communication with the driver. something the DOO lovers society forget to mention.

[royaloak]

There's a huge amount of willy waving going on here, couple of questions spring to mind though?

 

How full was the train, I always thought these scooters were carried subject to space?

 

Secondly what about the scooter itself, how large was it?  Many of the railway ramps have a limit of 300kg and these days that's not that high.  We turned one away last summer because (I kid you not) it was nearly 9 feet long, we couldn't get the ramp AND the scooter across the width of the platform. We tried to lift it on and (without the occupant) 4 good size blokes couldn't lift it, and when you read the data plate it weighed nigh on 250kg empty!  Ok, this cut down dalek is a bit of an extreme example and certainly the biggest mobility scooter I've ever seen, but many of these things are not small these days.

There are many more questions-

 

Is the person known to the staff (I personally know one wheelchair user who is the most obnoxious, arrogant b-stard I have ever met.

 

Have they been informed that the scooter is too big on several occasions so now the staff just ignore them

 

Maybe the Guard/OBs simply made a mistake.

 

Plus many more which might or might not be relevant.

[jjb1970]

Is the person known to the staff (I personally know one wheelchair user who is the most obnoxious, arrogant b-stard I have ever met.

 

 

I think that's probably the one thing that is irrelevant. At work people are paid to do a job, regardless of what they think of customers /clients.

[royaloak]

I think that's probably the one thing that is irrelevant. At work people are paid to do a job, regardless of what they think of customers /clients.

Spoken by somebody who obviously doesnt have to deal with the great british public!

You are correct that they are paid to do a job, they are not paid to take abuse either verbal or physical.

 

So its okay for people to call the staff all the names under the sun because 'they get paid for it' is it?

Because thats what it sounds lie to me!

[chris p bacon]

Spoken by somebody who obviously doesnt have to deal with the great british public!

You are correct that they are paid to do a job, they are not paid to take abuse either verbal or physical.

 

So its okay for people to call the staff all the names under the sun because 'they get paid for it' is it?

Because thats what it sounds lie to me!

 

Whether you mean to or not, you are coming across as having 'attitude' towards those that disagree with you. 

 

No staff should have to take abuse, but the individual this thread is about did not seem to be aggressive towards staff, if anything they ignored him which sadly is life for those with disabilities nowadays.

[jjb1970]

Spoken by somebody who obviously doesnt have to deal with the great british public!

You are correct that they are paid to do a job, they are not paid to take abuse either verbal or physical.

 

So its okay for people to call the staff all the names under the sun because 'they get paid for it' is it?

Because thats what it sounds lie to me!

If you're abused you report it via the appropriate channels in the same way as anybody else. I admit I'm making an assumption here but I suspect that the double amputee of the Op would happily swap places.

 

Can I ask why you stay in your job? You clearly have a low opinion of train companies, the travelling public and seemingly plenty of colleagues from references to boil in the bag drivers on past threads. Based on your general negativity to your job why don't you go and do something else, in a work environment where you might be happier?

[caradoc]

Mobility scooters are rather different from wheelchairs and as has been mentioned can be both large and heavy; In which case is there not a requirement to book travel in advance, so that the Guard would have been aware of the intending passenger, and possibly assist staff may have been arranged as well ? In an ideal world assistance would not be required, and wheelchairs and indeed scooters could drive straight from platform to train at the same level, however that is not how things are on a railway which has to accomodate various types of stock.  

[Mike Storey]

The Guard will be observing the PTI as the train leaves, if there is an issue they will give one buzz to the driver who will instantly drop the brake, we dont use flags anymore so ne need for the driver to look back, on some trains it isnt practical for the driver to look back anyway.

 

On a DOO train there wont be anybody checking the PTI so once the driver has done his final check and taken power its basically tough, fall down the gap and you have had it because nobody will be able to stop the train in time even if platform staff are present because they dont have direct communication with the driver. something the DOO lovers society forget to mention.

 

Is that true? I worked on and used the GN for around 20 years with DOO in operation. Drivers always checked along the platform as they started off, for that very reason.

[Sandpiper]

Drivers always checked along the platform as they started off

 

The Rule Book requires that drivers look out when starting if safe and possible. Unfortunately with most modern traction units it is not possible as the drivers seat is positioned too far away from the side window. I like sprinter units as I can pop my head out and look back for as long as I like as long as there are no overbridges or overhanging vegetation.

[Sandpiper]

There were several schoolchildren present who were genuinely annoyed by it as was the passenger, too!

 

Did you actually speak to the passenger personally to find out if they were annoyed?

 

On one of the routes I work there is someone who often sits on the platform on their mobility scooter just watching the trains. Maybe they are just an enthusiast. All the traincrews know that they never want to get on.

 

Having said that, if the person described in your incident wasn't known to the train crew, it would be very disappointing to think that nobody thought to go and speak to them. It may well have been the case that their scooter could not be conveyed, but to simply ignore them is not acceptable.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Sandpiper

[Sandpiper]

"Making Rail Accessible"

 

It’s best to contact us 24 hours before you travel if you want to book assistance

 

    

[JDW]

There are many more questions-

 

Is the person known to the staff (I personally know one wheelchair user who is the most obnoxious, arrogant b-stard I have ever met.

 

Have they been informed that the scooter is too big on several occasions so now the staff just ignore them

 

Maybe the Guard/OBs simply made a mistake.

 

Plus many more which might or might not be relevant.

 

 

As Sandpiper says, it may just be that he was an enthusiast and we've mistaken his intentions, we can't know.  However, as much as some people have disagreed, royaloak makes a valid point regarding potential trouble causers, and I can think of three who I would persistently avoid allowing on the bus after one too many chances.  One of those was in a wheelchair, and it got to the point where, despite being told multiple times that if he was entitled to a free travel card, he could and should apply for one, he continued trying to travel for nothing over a long period.  His argument was that he's in a wheelchair, an indisputable fact, but he just assumed he'd be allowed to do as he pleased because of it.  He either ignored advice to get himself a pass if he's entitled to one, or wasn't entitled to one, and eventually, many of us just stopped allowing him on in the first place because we knew the argument that would come (generally: stop, open doors, ask to see pass or money before going to deploy ramp, not just drive past).  Of course, I'm not suggesting thats the case here, but royaloak does raise a valid point I think, in that all passengers have the same rights and responsibilities in that regard.  

 

 As an aside (apologies for going off topic) during one "discussion" with said wheelchair bound gentleman, where he threatened to report me for x, y and z because I wouldn't carry him for free, I pointed to the CCTV cameras to remind him he was being watched and said the unfortunate words that he could complain all he wanted to and allege what he liked, but wouldn't have a leg to stand on because everything was being recorded.  It wasn't until I drove away that I realised what I'd just said...    

[royaloak]

If you're abused you report it via the appropriate channels in the same way as anybody else. I admit I'm making an assumption here but I suspect that the double amputee of the Op would happily swap places.

 

Can I ask why you stay in your job? You clearly have a low opinion of train companies, the travelling public and seemingly plenty of colleagues from references to boil in the bag drivers on past threads. Based on your general negativity to your job why don't you go and do something else, in a work environment where you might be happier?

So you are also saying it is okay to be abusive towards staff, just that they can then report it, woopy effin doo, I dont consider it acceptable to be abusive to anyone regardless of whether they can report it or not.

 

I stay in my job because I enjoy it and as a bonus it pays well, what I dont enjoy is some numpty on the internet saying train companies should do this that or the other when a quick bit of research would give them a dozen reasons why it cant be done.

 

I have a low opinion of stupid decisions and stupid regulations, but 99.9% of the travelling public are great, its the 0.1% I go on about, I am actually a boil in the bag myself so dont understand the reference, The few negatives are the bits we like to moan about (a moaning driver is a happy driver, if we havent got anything to moan about we are not happy), we dont moan about the enjoyable bits (like the alarm going off at 03:30 on your day off because you forgot to switch it off) oops thats not enjoyable is it, as for getting another job, no thanks, I might have to actually start working for a living, as it is I get paid to enjoy my hobby.