Free At Last Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I was recently given this controller but it is minus its overload(?) bulb, any idea what size/rating it should be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted December 16, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2017 I do not know this controller, but generally a 21W 12 V car bulb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 I do not know this controller, but generally a 21W 12 V car bulb. No way could it possibly be 21 watt as it only illuminates when the thermal breaker breaks, The bulb itself is not the resistance. It is likely to be around 12 volt 3 watt screw in as used for 1950s car warning lights. Watch the size of the glass as they do vary. My Marshall 3 is an older type so its no good showing you what mine takes, but the bulb has enough resistance to allow allow a modern mechanisms to continue to run even when the trip has tripped and the light is on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Given that it's ancient and mains powered, I hope you're going to make at least a good visual check of the internal wiring before plugging it in. A check by a proper sparky would be better still. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterfgf Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Given that it's ancient and mains powered, I hope you're going to make at least a good visual check of the internal wiring before plugging it in. A check by a proper sparky would be better still. It will be difficult to check the internals as the body is connected to the base by rivets. One could always drill these out I suppose. Mine Marshall III controller has a PVC insulated flex, not rubber, and the photograph shows that the one given to Free at Last also has a PVC insulated flex, so there is no concern about perished rubber. They are also double insulated as indicated by the "double square" symbol in the lower left hand corner of the upper plate. Still wise to check, but no need to be alarmed. Peterfgf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky Dicky Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Given that it's ancient and mains powered, I hope you're going to make at least a good visual check of the internal wiring before plugging it in. A check by a proper sparky would be better still. By the time you have paid a "sparky's" hourly rate to test it it you might be better off with a new PSU. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) Hi As I stated to your same post on another forum, the indicator lamp illuminates to warn that a short circuit or overload has occurred. The lamp should be a 12 volt 2.2 MES E10 type sold by many spares retailers or Maplins too in the UK. Their part number WL81C @ £0.99p Edited December 18, 2017 by Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted December 18, 2017 Author Share Posted December 18, 2017 Brian, on 18 Dec 2017 - 10:53, said: Hi As I stated to your same post on another forum, the indicator lamp illuminates to warn that a short circuit or overload has occurred. The lamp should be a 12 volt 2.2 MES E10 type sold by many spares retailers or Maplins too in the UK. Their part number WL81C @ £0.99p I went to my local Maplin and although their stock listing said 2 in stock the staff member could not find any 2.2 watt bulbs. The only 12v MES bulb they had was a 1.2w which I have now fitted. Yes, it does appear to be for indication only as the controller works without the bulb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 By the time you have paid a "sparky's" hourly rate to test it it you might be better off with a new PSU. Richard True, and my own inclination would be to trust my own inspection. Whilst not specifically electrically qualified, I am (or was) a professional in a technical field with a good understanding of basic electrical requirements. I can spot dodgy insulation, burned shellac, missing/loose earth connections etc. and have, so far manged to avoid either electrocution or burning my house down. Others, however, may be (or should be ) less confident. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 True, and my own inclination would be to trust my own inspection. Whilst not specifically electrically qualified, I am (or was) a professional in a technical field with a good understanding of basic electrical requirements. I can spot dodgy insulation, burned shellac, missing/loose earth connections etc. and have, so far manged to avoid either electrocution or burning my house down. Others, however, may be (or should be ) less confident. With a name like PAT... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 I went to my local Maplin and although their stock listing said 2 in stock the staff member could not find any 2.2 watt bulbs. The only 12v MES bulb they had was a 1.2w which I have now fitted. I suspect Maplin are dying a death of a 1000 cuts as more and more credit insurers refuse to cover them (the same thing that did for Comet). Watch out for closing down sales 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Sorry for coming back to this thread but I have two of these beasts requiring new overload bulbs. The third good one has a bulb marked X.878 IIRC. The bulb is I believe part of the overload protection as it is quite a hefty item current wise. I tried connecting it across the variable output, but could only raise a couple of volts across it which were sufficient to partly illuminate it, suggesting it is not actually a 12V bulb. It is wired in series with the output in parallel with a length of coiled wire. Under short circuit conditions, I suspect the current through the bulb rises and causes it to illuminate and its resistance to rise and thus limit the current serving both as fault indicator and protection. Without the bulb the locomotive I was running (a Rivarossi FS Gr740 2-8-0) was quite sluggish and I was wondering if she had developed a fault in storage as the light was intermittently on brightly. The track voltage however measured only 10 volts. Replacing the bulb (non-original) with the good one immediately resolved matters. The locomotive's speed increased to 'fast' (well above what the prototype was capable of*) and the light no longer glowed. So I need to find a couple of replacements. Does anyone know what the code means? The units are robust (Meccano claimed they were short circuit proof) and being variable transformers give good control aided by the provision of a pulse power (half wave) switch. I intend to modify the wiring to allow the otherwise useless 12 volt DC terminals to connect to a variable resistance (a damaged Trix battery controller) to give ' vari-wave' control as some locomotives are not really happy with things as they are - too slow on half wave and too fast on full wave. * This is not difficult as Italian steam locomotives were not noted for speed. The designs date from the turn of the last century and weren't in the forefront of technology then. (Short travel valves and convoluted steam passages. Coal being a precious mineral in Italy didn't help.) The Crosti boiler improved them considerably, but made little difference on a British Railways 9F (likewise the Giesl ejector). (Get it right in the first place and you don't need the bodges!) Edited December 23, 2019 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 I have an idea the bulbs screw in MES 2.2 vots were the same as the old Positive earth BMC Mini, Minor 1000, Austin A40 and all the other atrocious rust traps BMC managed to churn out in the gaps between strikes. so maybe Rimmer Bros or similar can supply? Negative earth cars had bayonet fitting bulbs as Alternators came in and needed insulated bulb holders. I used to do a cheap and easy conversion to use the Positive earth warning lamp with an alternator of course which meant converting the car to negative earth. I have never seen a Marshall 3 with half wave before. None of mine had it. There i a gap between stopped and 50 mph for some non Hornby Dublo models on the non Half wave models but H/D cunningly made the starting current adjustable on the 2-6-4T to overcome this. (Quite why the 2-6-4T had it not the Diesel Shunter and 0-6-2T is one of many mysteries left unanswered with the demise of Binns Road) The cut out should allow the loco to run at around half speed when the overload has tripped. It protects the motors. You can easily damage the vertical motors on 1 amp controllers by overloading them. The I assumed the bulb is in parallel with the cut out. and with the buzzer. I use a Marshall 3 for testing , often with a diode based controller on the 12vdc uncontrolled output and its weird to see the cut out working clicking away and flickering the lamp when a loco is struggling. you then have to back the power off to reset the cut out, To me this overload cut out is the best available Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobjUK Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 Sidelight bulbs are 12V and typically around 5 - 6W so these should be pretty similar: https://www.lamps2udirect.com/miniature-light-bulbs-miniature-lamps/12-volt-5-watt-mes-e10-15x28mm-miniature-light-bulb/139634?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZDrxoGW5QIVTbTtCh3mJgMtEAQYBCABEgLMtvD_BwE Or see "Lucas 992" in this one - probably the originals as the Mini etc., if that's what is required? https://www.jbvintagespares.co.uk/shop/4561158208/12-volt-ba9-mcc-mes-bulbs/2828083 They also list a 2.2W MES, if a lower rating is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkC Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 On 19/12/2017 at 14:37, Crosland said: I suspect Maplin are dying a death of a 1000 cuts as more and more credit insurers refuse to cover them (the same thing that did for Comet). Watch out for closing down sales How prophetic was this post, eh? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted October 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2019 6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said: ..... H/D cunningly made the starting current adjustable on the 2-6-4T to overcome this. (Quite why the 2-6-4T had it not the Diesel Shunter and 0-6-2T is one of many mysteries left unanswered with the demise of Binns Road) Interesting. I was unaware of this adjustment. What form does it take? How would I adjust the starting current in my 2-6-4 tanks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) The lamp is M.E.S. and the originals have a glass bulb which is elongated (rather the shape of the Dublo track oval in side view) rather than the spherical shape of a torch bulb. In the past I used a 12V halogen bulb (10W IIRC) soldered to an M.E.S. base, which seemed to work, but I would prefer the correct type. Dublo had 3 different series of power supplies. The first was the Bakelite cased transformer with 2 1A 1¼" cartridge fuses ! (at around 1/- each you didn't want to blow them too often!) and the black (blue pre-war, but otherwise the same) resistance controller. This had an annoying electro-magnetic cut-out button which tended to trip for no apparent reason I recall. Then came the A series:- a rather solid battery controller, the A2 combined controller/transformer and the bulky A3 with 12V AC and 15v AC outputs, which had push in sockets requiring a special plug. The first two had a bulb indicator for overload, (the details of which I forget (I'll have to dig mine out and check) but the A3 was blessed with self resetting electro-magnetic device*. The rubber insulation of the mains lead means these units are better kept as collectibles. * This is the one that chatters under load - the cut-out has a coil which lifts an armature breaking the circuit and lighting the lamp. On removing the overload, the armature falls restoring normal operation. Get the current right and it will 'hunt' noisily and cause the lamp to flash. Possibly the last A2s/A3s had PVC mains cables which would explain the choice of green, red, and black for Dublo connecting wire? Then came the Marshals. The T15, a straight 2 output 15 volt transformer, the Marshal II transformer controller and the unit in question the A3 These were all double insulated, fitted with two core PVC mains leads and allegedly short-circuit proof. There was also a Marshal controller for batteries or the independent 12 volt output of the Marshal III. An inferior plastic battery controller made its appearance in the 2 rail era, but that doesn't count.... The Marshall I would be a convenient unit, but false economy gave it only a limited range (4 IIRC) of speeds which render the thing fairly useless. The III has more (8?) and a pulse power switch. Not as good as an H & M Powermaster which has continuously variable control and Vari-wave, provided by a robust wire-wound slider variable resistance (possibly they might not all have it - I seem to recall it was an optional extra). I find this device excellent which is why the Trix controllers are to be used. These are designed to fit on the 4.5 volt bell batteries with screw terminals and have a plastic (acetate! - Trix were the last to give up this dreadful material - the shunters trucks and signal cabin roofs are always bent) case with a rather crude lever switch for on - off - reverse and a knob to control a rather solid 60 ohm wire-wound potentiometer. I have three of the things, two of which have the reversing lever broken and two Marshal IIIs (three actually, but the third is complete with its box and paperwork - leave alone!). One has already lost its rivets (years ago it needed a new mains lead IIRC), so this will be the guinea pig. Internet search (before waffling on here) found this thread and also this one from the same OP https://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=52435 More discussion, but no-one seems to know for sure. The instructions for the Marshal controller are here - http://www.biancolibrary.com/maxiview.php?booknumber=8072 Edited October 12, 2019 by Il Grifone Spelling 'Marshal' incorrectly Oops! and adding link to instructions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, MarkC said: How prophetic was this post, eh? I was going to say that last night, but forgot (not unknown and it was bed-time) so beaten to it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said: Interesting. I was unaware of this adjustment. What form does it take? How would I adjust the starting current in my 2-6-4 tanks? It's the function of the unsightly hole in the back of the bunker. A thin screwdriver can be used to adjust the screw inside (or take the body off). This alters the position of the magnetic shunt (flash name for a strip of iron) on or off the motor magnet. Turn it one way and she will go slower and the other faster. Later examples don't have it and Wrenn filled in the hole IIRC. I remember removing it from mine back in the day as useless. (You get a useful screw and phosphor bronze spring, plus a rectangular piece of iron with a 6 BA tapped hole in the middle. (It looks like it might be useful for something....) Sorry for the multiple posts - I did try to add the quotes to the first, but something went wrong - twice! Edited October 12, 2019 by Il Grifone 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 With the demise of Maplin, another source would be Farnell - this might be a suitable alternative https://uk.farnell.com/cml-innovative-technologies/w1309/lamp-mes-t3-1-4-12v-2-2w/dp/1139428?st=MES I can't remember if Farnell have a minimum order size - if so you might want to bulk your order up to £10 or so with other bits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 44 minutes ago, sharris said: With the demise of Maplin, another source would be Farnell - this might be a suitable alternative https://uk.farnell.com/cml-innovative-technologies/w1309/lamp-mes-t3-1-4-12v-2-2w/dp/1139428?st=MES I can't remember if Farnell have a minimum order size - if so you might want to bulk your order up to £10 or so with other bits. That looks good. I would hesitate to use a higher wattage bulb than standard as it appears to change the current which trips the cut out. The 1960s screw in torch bulbs etc ad a slimmer sculptured profile and the later round globe bulbs won't fit. This elongated shape looks like a good compromise. My controllers may prove to be A3s not Marshal 3s I will try to get in the loft later to check. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 It's easy enough to check. The A3 has a metal lever type control, whereas the Marshals have a proper knob. The A3 also has a grey ratings panel on the flat surface above the sloping control panel proper. Changing the bulb does in fact alter the rating of the overload protection. A standard small globe bulb will fit, but is difficult to remove once it's in. The pre-focussed type (the weird shaped ones) are even worse. Guess how I found out! A local Chinese Emporium in Sardinia has some wire ended 12 volt bulbs at 2 for 1€. (for vehicle instrument panels) and I was tempted to try these, but would really prefer something more original. Warning! More waffle! This was missing from the first A3 I acquired in the early sixties. A neighbour was selling surplus railway stock and I got it for 5/-. He wouldn't sell it to another client for this reason (it covers a large hole that allows access to the 'works'), but I must have impressed him as he sold it to me. I made it a new panel from cardboard to cover the exposed mains transformer, but must have thrown it out , probably because of the cotton covered T.R.S. mains lead! The one I have now has its panel but the coloured bezel over the indicator light is missing. The screw on surround is Bakelite or some other fragile plastic and easily broken and/or lost. The metal devices to connect to the output sockets are also missing. Both these items are hard to find.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted October 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2019 Thanks Il Grifone. Dublo is still giving up interesting news for me. I must take a look at my 2-6-4T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said: Thanks Il Grifone. Dublo is still giving up interesting news for me. I must take a look at my 2-6-4T You're welcome! Some of mine still have the device fitted (authenticity and all that), but they all have it wound back out of action. Basically it's the same mechanism as the A4 and Duchess, though earlier ones have a different gear ratio. I suppose they thought that a mixed traffic loco. should go slower than an express passenger. (The N2 is a law unto herself in this respect.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maico Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said: Thanks Il Grifone. Dublo is still giving up interesting news for me. I must take a look at my 2-6-4T See page 10 in the pdf. instructions http://gpoclocksystems.byethost22.com/dublo/ins357.pdf?i=1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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