Star Wars Episode 8 (Spoilers)

[Ozexpatriate]

However most movies (especially science fiction ones) fall apart if you start thinking about what you're watching.

Not if they are written properly.

 

We can joke about the design flaw in the Death Star, but at least it's 'plausible' * and used nicely as a plot element in Rogue One.

 

* Notwithstanding the notion that the trench and the time between "I have you now" and the arrival of the Falcon is absurdly long) 

[Supaned]

I watched this last night (in 3D), and have to say I did enjoy it very much.

 

Certainly a better film than The Force Awakens , although for me Rogue One edges it as the best one so far of the latest crop. I did indeed spot Gareth Edwards in the trench scene (but can't believe I missed Ade Edmonson...) .

 

A few moments left me a bit underwhelmed (Snoke's demise) , and a lot more questions than answers , certainly with Rey's parentage which I still think has more to it. 

 

I did like the humour , none of it seemed "forced" (excuse the pun) , and thankfully the Porg didn't turn out to be the new Jar Jar Binks.

[45156]

Just got back from long long ago in a galaxy far far away again, and I have to say that I ajm still undecided about this one - the cinematogrphy was utterly utterly superb - likewise the CGI.

 

I really think that Daisy Ridley played Rey brilliantly at times, and there is one lady with a future in the movies (cf Miss Debenham in the new Orient Express movie).  She just shone for me, and hid a lot of the holes in the plot itself, and my final opinion is that here we have an unfinished story, which did NOT need the prequels (none of which I liked) but which with the right hand on the tiller will get resolved.

 

All in all, worth a view, worth a fiver and a few hours of your time.  Not the best, but certainly benefits from the new technology.  We learned a lot, but not perhaps enough

 

ps - Carrie Fisher also gave a good show here and her part did add to the story.

[jjb1970]

Not if they are written properly.

 

We can joke about the design flaw in the Death Star, but at least it's 'plausible' * and used nicely as a plot element in Rogue One.

 

* Notwithstanding the notion that the trench and the time between "I have you now" and the arrival of the Falcon is absurdly long) 

 

One of the problems with the Star Wars universe is that many of the technologies already look old fashioned and obsolete as they were clearly based on somebody anticipating the next big idea in our own military technology. AI and autonomous systems are pretty much absent, most of the weapons still seem to be dumb weapons and it is all based on a premise of control and damage using traditional military hardware rather than via information management and attack.

[jjb1970]

I think the closest anybody has ever came to creating a truly credible alternative sci-fi reality is Frank Herbert's Dune. That also requires a willingness to embrace some odd ideas and concepts and an alternative reality, but the attention to detail he gave to creating a whole planetary eco-system, a socio-economic and political structure etc lifted it above most sci-fi. Just a shame the following books got steadily worse to the point of becoming almost unreadable.

[letterspider]

One of the problems with the Star Wars universe is that many of the technologies already look old fashioned and obsolete as they were clearly based on somebody anticipating the next big idea in our own military technology. AI and autonomous systems are pretty much absent, most of the weapons still seem to be dumb weapons and it is all based on a premise of control and damage using traditional military hardware rather than via information management and attack.

 

I'm not sure it is a problem. Star Wars is a dramatic space opera driven by the characters. There is science nonsense all over the place. Star Trek is even worse. Ironically his hasn't stopped many of the technologies being realised.

 

and it is not impossible that the Jedi were actually engineered by an AI, tinkering with biological systems. To any civilisation encountering a higher technololgy for the first time - it must seem very much like magic that nano-engineered aliens possess telepathy and telekinesis.

 

Likewise I often wonder what our neolithic ancestors would have thought about our 'sky ships' 'heat boxes' and 'poo-poo flushers' - or even for that matter adult hunters playing with toy trains...

Edited December 18, 2017 by letterspider

[Gareth Collier]

One of the problems with the Star Wars universe is that many of the technologies already look old fashioned and obsolete as they were clearly based on somebody anticipating the next big idea in our own military technology. AI and autonomous systems are pretty much absent, most of the weapons still seem to be dumb weapons and it is all based on a premise of control and damage using traditional military hardware rather than via information management and attack.

They should look old fashioned as it is set 'A long time ago in a galaxy far far away'

[Big James]

On watching it again I do have to say my opinion hasn’t changed much. But I’m glad that luke went out the way he did. But who’s to say his dead though. There is so much of the force we don’t understand. And what’s to stop Ewan Mcgregors obi-wan manisfesting himself out of the force and becoming mortal again to train Rey. He was the only one confirmed by George Lucas to master keeping ones consciencness when they become one with the force. (I know it’s a long shot but he was my favourite overall Star Wars character that wasn’t Darth Vader). I like how the prequels was referenced even if was briefly.

 

Big james

[Ozexpatriate]

We seem to be wandering into some spoilers here. (Though frankly if anyone even opens this thread without having first seen the movie, they would be silly to do so.)

 

Relative to force consciousness, before the movie screened I had expressed the hope to my son that we might eventually see Luke's force spirit tutor Rey, much like Obi Wan did for Luke. (It was pretty clear what the title of this movie meant, though it remains subtle.)

 

On the subject of unanswered questions, Episode III clearly indicates that Darth Sidious had learned the secret of the force spirit, something that he evidently taught Vader / Anakin. It makes me wonder what Darth Sidious' force spirit is up to?

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[Big James]

It was the act of pure love that anakin did in saving luke that helped his spirit become one with the force. Helped by obi-wan and Yoda. Although after reading a lot of the the new EU set between 4&5 luke was being trained by obi-wan for a while and even managed to taunt Vader at one point when advising luke on the best statagy to retreat. The Jedi believe they will become one with the force and that death in the service of protecting others is a worthy death. The Sith on the other hand have no concept of an after life. Hence why even after they suffer horrific wounds, the dark side burns out there bodies and other physical effects they won’t die and use the dark side to sustain them selfs. The dark side has not healing arts either. But on the other hand what’s to stop sidious not using the the dark side to just take a new body.

 

Big james

[Jeff Smith]

I think the closest anybody has ever came to creating a truly credible alternative sci-fi reality is Frank Herbert's Dune. That also requires a willingness to embrace some odd ideas and concepts and an alternative reality, but the attention to detail he gave to creating a whole planetary eco-system, a socio-economic and political structure etc lifted it above most sci-fi. Just a shame the following books got steadily worse to the point of becoming almost unreadable.

Strangely enough I just re-watched the Sci-Fi channel's version of Dune and Children of Dune on DVD. Dune was low budget and could do with a CGI re-work of the desert backgrounds but C of D had wonderful CGI. There is always argument as to how true to the books these are but the design, costumes and hardware are I think superb - the original Dune movie was very otherworldly but IMO suffered from some bizarre inclusions, especially the rain at the end.

[BlackRat]

Curates egg.......daft in places, .... excellent in others.

[jjb1970]

Curates egg.......daft in places, .... excellent in others.

 

I agree, a mixed bag.

 

I thought it was visually stunning and with glorious special effects and set pieces (as you'd expect). I also thought that some of the human drama was excellent and in terms of story development it was the quieter episodes which worked best.

 

On the downside, I thought it suffered from a recurring problem with many of the Star Wars films (Empire Strikes back excepted, and to an extent Rogue One) in having some big credibility holes in the First Order's (Empire's) weaponry and ineptitude.

 

Overall I enjoyed it, but it's becoming a bit of a stretch to suspend belief that the villains are clever and powerful enough to build all these super weapons, wipe out the Jedi order, take over the galaxy etc etc and then end up coming a cropper through being clueless idiots.

[Ozexpatriate]

... it's becoming a bit of a stretch to suspend belief that the villains are clever and powerful enough to build all these super weapons, wipe out the Jedi order, take over the galaxy etc etc and then end up coming a cropper through being clueless idiots.

I'm surprised you would say that. Can you not think of any 20^th century regimes with super weapons that came a cropper through clueless executive leadership?  (They even had stormtroopers!)

 

Very much a curates egg.

 

I'm getting really tired of the suspension of the law of gravity - even in high-orbit microgravity.  There needs to be a little bit of science in science fiction. I'm OK with hypothetical, ship-board artificial gravity, but not when objects are outside the spacecraft.

 

Why do space craft in zero gravity get shot down?

How do gravity bombs work in micro-gravity?

Why do armadas of star destroyers just sit there and watch while the resistance cruisers are ignored?

 

We can joke about the fact that all imperial architecture seems to contain massive cavities: for example, Death Star I and II, the Bespin cloud city, the Theed Generator Complex on Naboo, the Starkiller Weapon complex, the the Scarif communications tower, etc, etc (and this movie actually had far fewer 'holes' that weren't docking bays) but those aren't the kind of fundamental plot device weaknesses displayed in this latest movie.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[mjkerr]

I think the closest anybody has ever came to creating a truly credible alternative sci-fi reality is Frank Herbert's Dune

As an aside, you might be glad to know that a certain film distibutor is about to start work on this

Yes, it's the old "reboot" syndrome but the contract is for "at least" two films and will add some of the missing footage from the novel which was just not possible in the original film

Anticipated release mid-2020, so that it qualifies for Awards 2021 season

CAA are funding the distributor (which means it will be the majority of their actors)

[mjkerr]

If it helps, three actors for Episode 9 are to commence "zero-gravity training" early in 2018 for three months...

I think you can guess which three!

To me personally this is one of the things missing from this type of film, with so much activity "in space"

Edited December 18, 2017 by mjkerr

[Ozexpatriate]

As an aside, you might be glad to know that a certain film distributor is about to start work on this

One of the things I genuinely liked about the Dune movie was the 'steampunk'/Victorian vibe, before 'steampunk' was a widespread thing. It will be interesting to see if they maintain that.  I think it suits the ornithopters.

[jjb1970]

I'm surprised you would say that. Can you not think of any 20^th century regimes with super weapons that came a cropper through clueless executive leadership?  (They even had stormtroopers!)

 

 

 

 

If we compare it with the Third Reich, the top leadership of the Third Reich was dysfunctional but at a tactical level their armed forces were extremely professional. The evil Empire/First order has this recurring theme of inventing super weapons which can conquer the universe until they come a cropper because weapons designers who can design planet killing weapons and mega star ships miss the most obvious weaknesses, a navy that can conquer a galaxy is too inept to deal with a few fighters and make basic blunders in tactical deployment, and fails to learn obvious lessons. One reason the Empire Strikes Back and Rogue One work well is because the bad guys are properly formidable and not complete idiots.

[Ozexpatriate]

The evil Empire/First order has this recurring theme of inventing super weapons which can conquer the universe until they come a cropper because weapons designers who can design planet killing weapons and mega star ships miss the most obvious weaknesses, a navy that can conquer a galaxy is too inept to deal with a few fighters and make basic blunders in tactical deployment, and fails to learn obvious lessons.

The oversight in the EpIV Death Star is deftly explained in Rogue One.  The only oversight in EpVI Death Star is the hubris of the Empire in overlooking the Ewoks as a potential threat and that is the same hubris exhibited by Darth Sidious in his certainty that the Skywalkers will turn or die.  There were no errors in tactical fleet deployment there - the Emperor, blinded by turning Luke, had personally having given them orders to stand off.

 

The fact that the plots of 4 of the 8 movies so far hinge on planet killing space stations is of course unsatisfying. The present movie has serious problems with plausibility in all the space battles - more so than in any other Star Wars movie.

[Ian J.]

I think it bears mentioning that Star Wars isn't science fiction, it's space opera/fantasy. Therefore I'm prepared to forgive it some of its technical innaccuracies much as I would Lord of the Rings or any other fantasy movie. Science fiction in movies for me is stuff like Gravity, Interstellar, or Sunshine. Even Star Trek has wandered too far from the science side of things, not that it was particularly close in the first place, bearing in mind Roddenbury's own description of it was 'Wagon Train to the Stars'.

 

What I don't forgive any film is lazy plot structure and execution, where there end up being too many unexplained 'holes' in the story that a Star Destroyer could get through. Pretty much all films have them these days, just because the producers/writers can't be bothered to keep their stories self consistent.

[jjb1970]

The oversight in the EpIV Death Star is deftly explained in Rogue One.  The only oversight in EpVI Death Star is the hubris of the Empire in overlooking the Ewoks as a potential threat and that is the same hubris exhibited by Darth Sidious in his certainty that the Skywalkers will turn or die.  There were no errors in tactical fleet deployment there - the Emperor, blinded by turning Luke, had personally having given them orders to stand off.

 

The fact that the plots of 4 of the 8 movies so far hinge on planet killing space stations is of course unsatisfying. The present movie has serious problems with plausibility in all the space battles - more so than in any other Star Wars movie.

 

Even in RotJ Vader's super star destroyer is destroyed by a lone pilot doing a kamikaze into the bridge following the rebels targeting its shield generators. Surely a ship like that would have an auxiliary control station, emergency manoeuvring stations etc? And how comes no Imperial star ship has point defence weapons capable of defending them against fighter attack? You might give them the benefit of the doubt in Ep.IV but after the Death Star was blown up you'd think they'd make sure that their ships and space stations were provided with effective point defence systems.

[Ozexpatriate]

Even in RotJ Vader's super star destroyer is destroyed by a lone pilot doing a kamikaze into the bridge following the rebels targeting its shield generators.

The Star Wars universe is uniformly inconsistent when it comes to the notion of energy shields.  The most recent movie is the first one where a shield extending beyond the hull was imagined. All the other Star Wars movies seemed to take hull damage, even in the presence of shields in the dialogue, which is pretty inconsistent.

 

The Star Trek shield projector (originally the big forward dish on the NCC1701 main fuselage) and Romulan/Klingon clocking devices were far more consistent from a science fiction standpoint than anything in Star Wars. Of course, due to effects budgets, so much more has to be imagined in Star Trek than Star Wars.

 

The whole idea of a trans-light speed ship having windows is of course ridiculous - what would you see in hyperspace/warp? This was solved in Star Trek. The view screen was a simulated view, though of course there were windows, if you looked up (never seen from the inside of course). One would think the bridge of a starship should be in a deep and projected part of the vessel. Perhaps the most egregious bridge is that bug eye stalk on General Grevious' ship "Invisible Hand" in Ep III.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[letterspider]

We seem to be wandering into some spoilers here. (Though frankly if anyone even opens this thread without having first seen the movie, they would be silly to do so.)

 

Relative to force consciousness, before the movie screened I had expressed the hope to my son that we might eventually see Luke's force spirit tutor Rey, much like Obi Wan did for Luke. (It was pretty clear what the title of this movie meant, though it remains subtle.)

 

On the subject of unanswered questions, Episode III clearly indicates that Darth Sidious had learned the secret of the force spirit, something that he evidently taught Vader / Anakin. It makes me wonder what Darth Sidious' force spirit is up to?

 

Apparently Darth Sidious' force spirit is kept imprisoned by the force spirits of dead Jedi.

Edited December 18, 2017 by letterspider

[Nelson Jackson]

Just changed the title as some scenes are described above, but hopefully everyone has seen it and we can really discuss the going ons.

[Bill]

Big moan...

Rogue One - pardon the pun - was complete waste of space..

Clearly the Director and screen writer, whoever they were, had zero comprehension of the Star Wars universe..

(Plus the fact that neither seemed able to write or direct..)

Having got that beef out of the way..

Also - The local Cineplex is way too dirty for humans to use..

And as I value my hearing IMAX is no longer a tenable venue.. (Even with ear plugs in place..)

Modern Cinema has got a lot going for it so I am ever hopeful that one day someone will actually rediscover the art of producing an interesting and exciting movie..

And showing it..

Until then...

Grumbles and moans over ..

However.. 

Thank you for all for the amazing diversity of views -

They remind me very much of the population of a Star Wars movie..

How would Yoda view it? What would Darth Vader have to say? The Emperors Judgement? Did Luke like it? The Wookie vote? Would they have trashed the cinema?  Did Han Solo even bother to watch it? How would it play on Tatooine?... 

I am looking forward to seeing this movie when it hits Netflix.

But I suspect until someone can rebuild the Star Wars ethos and philosophy, find a director and actors with sufficient gravitas to pull it off and travel more deeply into the territory, this will simply be another bust. They had an opportunity to develop an immortal series with the "Empire Strikes Back" and since then it has all faded to grey... These people have no vision..!!!