Star Wars Episode 8 (Spoilers)

[Reorte]

Unfortunately the SW films now seem to be suffering a problem that has been 'infecting' mainstream films for a while, which is that the producers/writers believe that plausibility is of no importance whatsoever and can be left in the shredder as long as there are enough spectacular scenes which keep the audience 'wowed'. These days, if you want intelligent and plausible stories in your movies, you have no choice but to look to independent films. To my mind this all kicked off with 'Armageddon' in 1998, one of Michael Bay's first films, and one which put action spectacle way above plausibility in importance. Since then it's been a downhill trend, made worse in more recent years with the over-the-top Marvel and DC superhero movies (Sam Raimi's Spiderman and Nolan's Batman being the exceptions).

I enjoyed TLJ but that attitude was a huge problem with it. I don't mind the spectacle in a Star Wars film but there's no reason it can't be made reasonably plausible - and plausible isn't the same as realistic. It's a worry that it's in the hands of "it's got magic powers and planet-hopping space ships, therefore absolutely anything goes" type people. I'm not going with the "it's terrible" people - as I said I enjoyed it (just got back from the cinema) but a little bit of tweaking and thinking could've produced more or less the same film but with less to grate.

[PaulRhB]

At what point is the Force 'plausible' in any of the films?

You could say that Leia's extreme situation and her realising 'I'm not dead' awoke the latent family talent and she was able to claw her way back to protect the rebels she was so committed to after losing Ben, Luke (she thought lost to the rebellion at the time) and then Han. She obviously suffered from it in that she was in the medical bay.

They are after a new generation of fans and they are lapping it up. My mates daughter and friend saw it this afternoon and raved about it.

Me and the adults were busy playing with the Sphero R2D2.

If you like R2 and have a smartphone this is the coolest ever and I've got the big interactive R2 as well. Must try R2 and BB-8 on the watch the film setting

You can get R2 for under £100 at the mo

[Ian J.]

I use plausible in the context of story/plot here, rather than any specific technologies or such. While some settings and events in stories are entirely fictional, and technically either impossible or unfeasible, the story around them can still be plausible - that is, they are coherent within their own rules. When something happens without that coherence then that's considered to be contrivance, which had long been considered a big no-no in writing circles, until Armageddon and its ilk came along. It seems these days that enough of the movie audience simply doesn't care for story consistency and are happy to be bombarded with spectacle. The same might not be true of TV though, where the long form of the modern multi-season TV serial seems to be feeding the story appetite of viewers.

[PaulRhB]

That's what I'm wondering with some of these story threads Ian, they may be set ups for the long haul. All I mean is many are asking for reasons why but how do you explain Leia's self rescue without a clunky Jedi family insertion? None of the Rebels would know what just happened and probably relief they had her back overcame a sit down and whoa? moment. Probably they would just go ok she's Luke's sister this must be the Force.

I think the forums and books can set too strict a expectation on knowing what's going on. I was surprised by it and the 'going down' I dismissed as a slightly heavy visual device to emphasise the last man standing.

One thing I do when I go to see Star Wars is suspend reality and just relax. I don't think I'm blinded by the spectacle because I watch a lot of these genre films and I find there are ones where I come out thinking somebody just had a 3D fight idea and slapped a film around it.

I rarely find film lives up to the book and probably that's the main reason I've avoided the wider SW universe and just watched the films continuing from where I first saw SW as a small child. I still can't stand to watch Ep1, 2 & 3 much though. They were visually too clean, Jar Jar, both Anakin actors and flying R2 spoilt those for me.

To me Rogue One is the best of the new batch but I thoroughly enjoyed FA and LJ

Edited December 24, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Junctionmad]

I found TLJ visually interesting and impressive , I'm not a SW geek , so I don't follow the whole story line , but like many I found this plot weak . as many have said the casino scene , disable the tracker subplot , seemed like a pure space filler .

 

There was also a major overall plot problem , the point of the film was " overwhelming force crushes pucky resistance types " , so it was obvious the first order had to win. In real life , the overwhelming firepower would have crushed the resistance quickly , even if remnants survived, ( think road to Basra type destruction ) , but the script had to give the " good guys" some " wins" hence the quite ridiculous defeat of some of the first orders capital ships and particularly the dreadnought.

 

These days , armed resistance against superior military force is entirely at a guerrilia level, the idea that you can maintain the fiction of one " plucky and capable , but under-resourced " miltary fighting a gutsy rearguard action is simply nonsense.

 

Imagine a serous conflict, however implausible , between say the militaries of the USA and the UK , the military part would be over in days , even if low tech and guerrila warfare might drag on for years.

 

And indeed the demise of Snoke is baffling , a supposed powerful creature , gets cut down by a light sabre in seconds , why even have him in the plot. It's a very weak device to allow the creation of clearly the next " Vader " .

 

Great to look at , but a plot on the level of Thomas the tank engine cartoons

[Reorte]

At what point is the Force 'plausible' in any of the films?

Hence "plausible isn't necessarily the same as realistic". It's plausible within the context of Star Wars. Spectacle is all well and good and Star Wars is as much about spectacle as anything else, but there's no excuse for being lazy. A film I don't have to think about can be fine, one I actively have to avoid thinking to fully enjoy isn't, that's a flaw no matter the film, otherwise you may as well just have a series of contexless, consequence-free big set pieces. Sure, no work of fiction will stand extreme scrutiny but at least don't make the flaws hit me in the face.

[Ian J.]

Despite some of the plot failings, I still enjoyed TLJ, and I have to wonder that much of the attrition of characters in the film is a set up for events in Episode IX. However, I did feel that Snoke's almost casual killing defined a point where I started to feel disappointment, as he came across as significantly powerful with the Force, and Kylo Ren hadn't been sufficiently made out to be capable of hiding a deception from Snoke such that he would get away with killing him. That event felt very contrived to me, rather than a plausible and natural progression of the story.

[jjb1970]

The point where I became disappointed was the Dreadnought sequence. Visually stunning but absurd and so full of holes and presenting so many questions that you don't need to be a military theorist to notice them. However, I did enjoy the film overall.

[pirouets]

My 10 year old only gave it 5 out of 10. When I asked why, because Chewie scared the Porgs and it looked like he was eating one. Also is it me or has Chewie been on a diet?

My wife on the other hand wants the ironing machine in the laundry scene.

Plot holes, yup but thoughly enjoyed it anyway.

[Ozexpatriate]

While some settings and events in stories are entirely fictional, and technically either impossible or unfeasible, the story around them can still be plausible - that is, they are coherent within their own rules. When something happens without that coherence then that's considered to be contrivance ...

I think this is the important thing. For "plausibility" there needs to be a consistent set of coherent 'rules' for that imagined setting.  With that in place I'm happy to suspend disbelief.

[Jeff Smith]

A major, and annoying habit exhibited by some science fiction writers is to suddenly introduce some previously unmentioned technology as a get out clause. If there is faster than light travel or FTL communications these facts should be introduced into the story in a matter of fact way so that the reader/viewer is aware of what resources are available in the universe that the story is set in. This is not necessarily a commentary on the Star Wars universe but could apply for example to weapons capability and force shield effectiveness.

 

And, as an aside, why do the stormtroopers wear armour that is easily defeated by hand held blasters?

Edited December 27, 2017 by Jeff Smith

[Ozexpatriate]

A major, and annoying habit exhibited by some science fiction writers is to suddenly introduce some previously unmentioned technology as a get out clause.

Long a problem with Dr. Who scripts - apparently sonic screwdrivers fix just about anything.

 

And, as an aside, why do the stormtroopers wear armour that is easily defeated by hand held blasters?

True, but at least it's consistent. For trained professionals, they're also very bad shots.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Ozexpatriate

[EddieB]

And, as an aside, why do the stormtroopers wear armour that is easily defeated by hand held blasters?

Or why do bombs (and the controllers to release them) drop under gravity in space?

[Reorte]

Or why do bombs (and the controllers to release them) drop under gravity in space?

They could be getting projected out, but saying that is an effort to fill in the holes I think, which is the writer's job. It certainly doesn't look like that was the intention after all. True, back in The Empire Strikes Back we had TIE Bombers bombing asteroids (where the gravity would be negligable - let's ignore the bit where they're walking around inside a monster on one!), but that was more easily handwaved as it being a convenient way to cover the surface, fly in one direction and fire weapons downwards.

[Classsix T]

Saw it yesterday and whilst not "right up there" enjoyed it as a worthy addition to the canon.

Having avoided this thread until now, it's apparent some of us have forgotten how their twelve-year-old minds used to work.

Naval tactics are rarely uppermost, but perhaps I should explain that although the First order come to the battlespace with a fleet of Stardestroyers, one of them is carrying bogroll, another teabags, etc. Force projection doesn't necessarily mean each vessel can project force. Stop overthinking things, because I then have to underthink it for a retort and life's too short.

 

Laura Dern was the standout for me but needed two more dialogue insertions:

 

"Somehow the General managed to create a bubble around herself and make her way back on-board."

 

"...silent running..." I don't care in what context!

 

C6T.

BTW I must've missed it, where was the "bad feeling" line?

[Classsix T]

...and they better not have killed off Phasma. She's the Boba Fett for a new generation.

[PaulRhB]

You mean there's inconsistency in the whole series?

 

. . .

 

I was trying to keep that quiet so people didn't get upset

 

Chewie can also say an awful lot with arrrgggwul . .

The Falcon can take knocks that send Tie fighters spinning to their doom.

Stormtroopers are the elite troops and eyes of the Empire but can walk into doors they can't see.

R2 is never seen flying to negotiate Endors rough ground.

Cloud City's underside and the Meteorite monster have atmospheres conducive to wearing normal clothes.

 

I noticed most of those as six - eight year old but still like the films!

Edited December 28, 2017 by PaulRhB

[mjkerr]

I must've missed it, where was the "bad feeling" line?

It is right at the beginning of the film

BB-8 bleeps "I have a bad feeling about this", hence Poes response, "Happy beeps buddy"

[Gareth Collier]

 

True, but at least it's consistent. For trained professionals, they're also very bad shots.

 

A common misconception. As Obi-Wan pointed out after the attack on the Jawa Sandcrawler 'only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise'. The heroes escaped the Death Star as the Stormtroopers poor 'accuracy' was part of the plan as Tarkin wanted them to escape so they could track them to the Rebel base. It was actually very accurate shooting as they had to make sure they missed!

However as I'm a Stormtrooper in my spare time I can confirm you can see all out the helmet

[Reorte]

Saw it yesterday and whilst not "right up there" enjoyed it as a worthy addition to the canon.

Having avoided this thread until now, it's apparent some of us have forgotten how their twelve-year-old minds used to work.

Naval tactics are rarely uppermost, but perhaps I should explain that although the First order come to the battlespace with a fleet of Stardestroyers, one of them is carrying bogroll, another teabags, etc. Force projection doesn't necessarily mean each vessel can project force. Stop overthinking things, because I then have to underthink it for a retort and life's too short.

The twelve year old would still be satisfied with the film with a few little adjustments that would keep the rest of us who, whilst not overthinking, don't like having to remove our brains either. All the "don't overthink" and "children don't mind" type responses to it are really just excusing unnecessary sloppiness. That sloppiness didn't ruin the film but it would've been better without it, and not required much effort at all to not have it whilst still been just as accessible for the twelve year olds. Result - everyone happy.

[Georgeconna]

I found TLJ visually interesting and impressive , I'm not a SW geek , so I don't follow the whole story line , but like many I found this plot weak . as many have said the casino scene , disable the tracker subplot , seemed like a pure space filler .

 

There was also a major overall plot problem , the point of the film was " overwhelming force crushes pucky resistance types " , so it was obvious the first order had to win. In real life , the overwhelming firepower would have crushed the resistance quickly , even if remnants survived, ( think road to Basra type destruction ) , but the script had to give the " good guys" some " wins" hence the quite ridiculous defeat of some of the first orders capital ships and particularly the dreadnought.

 

These days , armed resistance against superior military force is entirely at a guerrilia level, the idea that you can maintain the fiction of one " plucky and capable , but under-resourced " miltary fighting a gutsy rearguard action is simply nonsense.

 

Imagine a serous conflict, however implausible , between say the militaries of the USA and the UK , the military part would be over in days , even if low tech and guerrila warfare might drag on for years.

 

And indeed the demise of Snoke is baffling , a supposed powerful creature , gets cut down by a light sabre in seconds , why even have him in the plot. It's a very weak device to allow the creation of clearly the next " Vader " .

 

Great to look at , but a plot on the level of Thomas the tank engine cartoons

 

Mabye Snoke is like the Great and Powerful Oz, All smoke and mirrors. Easily found out. in the end.

 

[jjb1970]

I've just been playing Star Wars Battlefront on XBox One with the boy, now that is proper Star Wars fun!

[Classsix T]

Electronic Arts and Microsoft. Truly an axis of evil empires.

 

C6T.

[Classsix T]

The twelve year old would still be satisfied with the film with a few little adjustments that would keep the rest of us who, whilst not overthinking, don't like having to remove our brains either. All the "don't overthink" and "children don't mind" type responses to it are really just excusing unnecessary sloppiness. That sloppiness didn't ruin the film but it would've been better without it, and not required much effort at all to not have it whilst still been just as accessible for the twelve year olds. Result - everyone happy.

In space everyone can hear your guns going "pyew pyew". Where do you draw the line on reality?

 

C6T.

[Reorte]

In space everyone can hear your guns going "pyew pyew". Where do you draw the line on reality?

 

C6T.

Take it in the other direction - where do you draw the line on "<shrug>, there's lots that's not realistic, why bother at all?" It's about how far you go before you have to really start working at suspending disbelief (clearly where that line lies varies from person to person, but I think there's such a think as too easily accepting). The choice is not 100% strict reality or anything goes. Convention plays a good part in that (where personal experience lacks, and whilst RMWeb has a wide variety of professions in its members I doubt there are that many astronauts here). I think that you need to establish your exceptions to reality early on then work within them (and the consequences thereof). Some conventions can be used to avoid spending too much of the setup on it, e.g. these days people are prepared to accept FTL travel in such a fictional universe. A non-hard science fiction setting doesn't mean ignoring those considerations, it means having a story where they wouldn't come in to play anyway.