Darkest hour

[DavidB-AU]

Discussing it with a work colleague at lunch today, we concluded there is scope for a trilogy here. A second film covering the Battle of Britain and preparations for the expected invasion, and a third one covering the closing year of the war and the 1945 election.

 

Cheers

David

[Calimero]

I'd recommend to you all a visit to Chartwell Hall, the family home.

[Nearholmer]

David

 

It's an interesting idea, but it would take an awful lot of skill to ram into a third film the multifarious reasons for the outcome of the 1945 election.

 

It might be worth the effort, though, because the continuing trend towards the beatification (deification even?) of Churchill must cause a lot of people, especially I guess youngsters, to scratch their heads and ask why the country took the first opportunity to make-PM of a man who was so incredibly different.

 

I can almost imagine the opening scene, with Churchill watching a couple of removal men heave a box of his personal affects out of No.10.

 

Kevin

Edited January 25, 2018 by Nearholmer

[62613]

Yes Britain was certainly up against it at this time. As I understand it the only reason that the invasion did not happen was because the Luftwaffe did not have mastery of the skies which again underlines the importance of the Battle Of Britain . It really was the few that stood between us and Nazi Germany

I wish they had tried an invasion - it might have shortened the war considerably; after its inevitable defeat, barring a huge cock-up, and see posts further up the thread, and the British defeat of the Italians in North and East Africa, I reckon we would have been in a better position in April or May 1941 than we eventually were in May 1945. Certainly not as economically ruined. after unconditional surrender had wreaked its havoc on Europe. We could then have let the Germans and Soviets kick seven bells out of each other to mutual exhaustion, and redeployed our forces to meet the Japanese.

 

OK, it's just a bit of counterfactual carp, but interesting? 

[lapford34102]

For anyone interested in whether a German invasion was every a realistic option this is worth reading

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Sea-Lion-Failed-Invasion/dp/1468301497

It's conclusion was that Churchill was never convinced it was serious threat but felt but had great value in keeping everyone focused.

The Sandhurst "war game" was based on what was known at the time, re-run with the benefit of 40 years of additional research the result might be even clearer.

Hopefully Mr Oldman will get his Oscar, he deserves it.

 

Stu

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...the continuing trend towards the beatification (deification even?) of Churchill must cause a lot of people, especially I guess youngsters, to scratch their heads and ask why the country took the first opportunity to make-PM of a man who was so incredibly different...

 

 My parent's generation were unequivocal, dishonesty. The Labour party proposed considerably accelerating the plan to repatriate all those in the armed forces as 'hostilities only' conscripts. This was immensely popular as may well be imagined, and swung the election. And they then not merely failed to deliver it, but actually slowed down the process! My FiL remains ticked off by this!

[Nearholmer]

34C

 

Your parents may have held that view, but I think it’s a stretch to claim that the entire generation held it.

 

In contrast, my father regarded Churchill as an old scoundrel who had mad a brilliant War-PM, but who could never have been trusted to lead a government to rebuild the country in the interests of the general mass of the population. The older members of the family also had a very deep-seated fear of “going back to the thirties”, spiced with numerous horror-stories about how tough life had been for ordinary people then, even in the ‘soft’ south of England. They voted Labour (in several cases, I suspect, only once) because they feared that the Tories simply wanted to ‘restart the clock’ c1938.

 

And, it’s these contrasting views that would make creating a film about the 1945 election so ‘interesting’: even those who voted in it had a wide spread of reasons.

 

Kevin

Edited January 26, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Phil Bullock]

Discussing it with a work colleague at lunch today, we concluded there is scope for a trilogy here. A second film covering the Battle of Britain and preparations for the expected invasion, and a third one covering the closing year of the war and the 1945 election.

 

Cheers

David

 

A new Battle of Britain film - nice idea, could we ever replace the original cinematic masterpiece however?

 

The RAF could at least field a squadron of Hurricanes now - 3 wasn't it in the original - and also the Duxford Big Wing in terms of spitfire numbers

 

However the Luftwaffe would be struggling - OK you might actually find a DB engine BF109 now, but not too many flying even of the RR engined versions used in the original film - and what chance a HE111, let alone a Do17, ME110, JU87 or JU88?

 

Better come back down to earth now...."bumps a daisy....you can teach monkeys to fly better than that!"

 

So reality is the Battle of Britain kept the Wermacht at bay - beyond a doubt. I think its fair to say the two sides flogged each other to within a short distance of exhaustion....

 

Phil

[Legend]

I thought there was actually a new Battle of Britain film in the offing.  It would all be CGI so I don't think you need squadrons of Heinkels .   The 1969 film was great . Difficult to see how you can improve on that really . Great cast too . "Chicken to Kitehawk in one lesson"

[Horsetan]

.....the continuing trend towards the beatification (deification even?) of Churchill must cause a lot of people, especially I guess youngsters, to scratch their heads and ask why the country took the first opportunity to make-PM of a man who was so incredibly different....

OT but meanwhile, over in the United States, might American youngsters might be asking the same question about their President just yet.....?

Edited January 26, 2018 by Horsetan

[Bernard Lamb]

34C

 

Your parents may have held that view, but I think it’s a stretch to claim that the entire generation held it.

 

In contrast, my father regarded Churchill as an old scoundrel who had mad a brilliant War-PM, but who could never have been trusted to lead a government to rebuild the country in the interests of the general mass of the population. The older members of the family also had a very deep-seated fear of “going back to the thirties”, spiced with numerous horror-stories about how tough life had been for ordinary people then, even in the ‘soft’ south of England. They voted Labour (in several cases, I suspect, only once) because they feared that the Tories simply wanted to ‘restart the clock’ c1938.

 

And, it’s these contrasting views that would make creating a film about the 1945 election so ‘interesting’: even those who voted in it had a wide spread of reasons.

 

Kevin

 

Don't forget the families and friends of those still at war or held as POWs in the Far East.

My mother had almost no interest in politics. She was however proud of going to throw stones at Churchill during the election campaign. She lived in his patch in Walthamstow. He was not flavour of the month then, or at almost any other time, with our family. 

Bernard

[Metr0Land]

So reality is the Battle of Britain kept the Wermacht at bay - beyond a doubt. I think its fair to say the two sides flogged each other to within a short distance of exhaustion....

 

Phil

 

 

The hour long documentary of Capt Winkle Brown shows the BoB from Goering's viewpoint. Capt Brown actually got to interrogate Goering after the war. Watch from 34:30 to 36:45

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Metr0Land

[owentherail]

I can't believe the same actor who played Sid vicious is playing Churchill.... What a great actor he is.

[Classsix T]

...and Dracula!

 

C6T.

[The Stationmaster]

Got to see it yesterday evening and overall very impressive, Gary Oldman was superb but Kristin Scott Thomas also deserves an accolade for her portrayal of clementine (who at the time in which the film is set was actually 2 years younger than the actress playing her).  Obviously some stretching of facts - the DC3 not only grated somewhat but the meeting in the aircraft hangar in France was a nonsense - the real meetings (two seem to have been rolled into one) took place in govt offices in Paris; the tube train scene was a bit silly but made a point and it would be interesting to know if the names quoted by Churchill were real and if there was genuine source information which provided them?  Equally some of the stuff portrayed as speeches in the House of Commons wasn't actually in Parliamentary speeches but in broadcasts to the nation.

 

But all of this is river counting on steroids - the point of the film was to convey what was going on politically at the time and how insecure Churchill's position was with Halifax doing his snake in the grass act in the background, and it succeeded superbly in that respect with a clearly understandable script and storyline.  Mind you like '34C' further up this thread I did at times wonder if I too was watching a parable for our times.

[Horsetan]

I rather liked him in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. Even The Cumberbatch was nicely understated in that film, at the wheel of a Citroën DS....

[DavidB-AU]

I've finally got my hands on the DVD and it does look like the 1940 Beck map.

 

 

Cheers

David

[tomparryharry]

Mr Oldman will have a zero chance of an Oscar here...

 

Hollywood is currently making a cinematic masterpiece about the digestive life of a baked bean, and have cast some unknown as the farting sound. 

 

A great pity. I really like Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, and Mr Oldman was spot-on in that film.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[PaulRhB]

Mr Oldman will have a zero chance of an Oscar here...

 

 

He already got it for Darkest Hour

[Metr0Land]

I've finally got my hands on the DVD and it does look like the 1940 Beck map.

 

map.jpg

 

Cheers

David

It's difficult to tell from this shot but I'd say the map's in colour (albeit very 'knocked back'). Assuming the wall maps were the same as the public handout (and I belive they were), and looking at MILL HILL EAST which is shown below the line (blurred but if you have a selection of maps it's easily discernable, then this would make it Undergorund Map 1941 Issue 2.  1941 Issue 1 was sepia and white with MILL HILL EAST above the line.

 

1940 Issues 1 and 2 were both black/sepia and white with MILL HILL EAST above the line.

[Mike Storey]

He already got it for Darkest Hour

 

Darkest Hour also won best make up Oscar!!

 

Didn't even know that one existed.....

[DavidB-AU]

Mr Oldman will have a zero chance of an Oscar here...

Watch Gary Oldman's Best Actor 2018 Oscar Speech

http://oscar.go.com/news/oscar-news/best-actor-2018-gary-oldman-wins-2018-oscar

[rockershovel]

Regarding any possible invasion of Britain, it’s often overlooked that France were still fighting at that point, if not for much longer. The Germans had come very close to winning the First World War in 1918, by separating the British and French forces, forcing the British to retreat towards the Channel ports and opening a flanking manoeuvre against the French.

 

Hitler undoubtedly intended to invade Russia at the earliest feasible opportunity and would have been well aware that this would not be a quick campaign; he was, after all a First World War veteran, as were all of his senior military commanders. The threat of the “Two Front War” was very real to them, and to be avoided at all costs.

 

Hitler had had great success, for a long time, manipulating the appeasers in the British government. He appears to have believed (insofar as that can be known) that the British government could be brought to deal again, leaving him free to dispose of the French and then, turn his attention to the East. That also avoided the threat of the British Empire, which had been a key factor in the previous conflict; AND the threat of the Royal Navy, to which Germany had had no ultimate answer in 1914-18.

 

Whether that is all feasible isn’t quite the point. The Germans were led by a charismatic leader who at that point, had a long record of success. The events of spring 1940 have since come to be regarded as the incomprehensible abberation of a madman, but a lot of well-informed people saw them differently at the time; a diplomatic solution with the British, leaving Germany free to pursue its primary objectives would have been a huge success indeed.

[rockershovel]

34C

Your parents may have held that view, but I think it’s a stretch to claim that the entire generation held it.

In contrast, my father regarded Churchill as an old scoundrel who had mad a brilliant War-PM, but who could never have been trusted to lead a government to rebuild the country in the interests of the general mass of the population. The older members of the family also had a very deep-seated fear of “going back to the thirties”, spiced with numerous horror-stories about how tough life had been for ordinary people then, even in the ‘soft’ south of England. They voted Labour (in several cases, I suspect, only once) because they feared that the Tories simply wanted to ‘restart the clock’ c1938.

And, it’s these contrasting views that would make creating a film about the 1945 election so ‘interesting’: even those who voted in it had a wide spread of reasons.

Kevin

Exactly. It’s also important to remember that Churchill was not once, but twice PM, and achieved this without being elected “Leader of the Conservative Party” in the modern sense.

 

My late father was no admirer of much of Churchill’s policies, but a huge admirer of the man. He stood by the kerb, through a bitterly cold night, despite his war injuries, to be sure to see the passing into history of a man who in is younger days, he would happily have seen hanged; and he was surrounded by a great crowd assembled for the same reason.

 

They knew it was a time when normal rules didn’t apply. The “deification of Churchill” referred to above, is nothing new.

[Big James]

Winston Churchill knew war was inevitable as did a few other people in positions of power and in the armed forces. Including leaders within the RAF who began churning out hurricanes and spitfires plus pushing forward with radar. Hitler wanted to take us out of the war first before attacking Russia and operation sea lion was a very real possibility. But the Germans couldn’t accomplish the two main objectives was to take the RAF and then use the Luftwaffe to tak the the Royal Navy in preparation for invasion. But they couldn’t accomplish it so Hitler switched to terror tactics by trying to bomb us into submission while he invaded Russia.

 

Big James