What will happen to historical/prototypical accuracy once everyone who lived in that era is gone?

[APOLLO]

I noticed that happening a while ago to sites I had visited and bookmarked in the dim past. Since then I have taken to saving copies of any photos and text that I want to have for future project reference. No doubt the file will be consumed in the flames shortly after me. 

 

 That is just what I do also, and back them up on a hard drive. They are just for my personal use and I like browsing them. I'll not be bothered about it's future when I'm gone.

 

Long term survivability of info & photos etc on the net. It is an interesting question.All I can say is that quite a lot of info has survived in one form or another over the many years before the net, and I guess a lot has been lost also. I read somewhere that everything posted / done on the net is stored somewhere (USA ?) - it may not be accessible to you and me, but stored it most likely is.

 

Anybody any ideas regarding this ?

 

Brit15

[kevinlms]

 That is just what I do also, and back them up on a hard drive. They are just for my personal use and I like browsing them. I'll not be bothered about it's future when I'm gone.

 

Long term survivability of info & photos etc on the net. It is an interesting question.All I can say is that quite a lot of info has survived in one form or another over the many years before the net, and I guess a lot has been lost also. I read somewhere that everything posted / done on the net is stored somewhere (USA ?) - it may not be accessible to you and me, but stored it most likely is.

 

Anybody any ideas regarding this ?

 

Brit15

If it is true, is it accessible and how? Pointless if its been archived but impossible to find.

[kevinlms]

How much of what's currently available on the internet will continue to be so? To take a very small example, I have pictures up on Flickr. I pay an annual fee for that, paid automatically by credit card. When I shuffle off this mortal coil, those payments will stop as the credit card is cancelled, and those pictures will no longer be available. I'm sure there are many others in the same situation.

That is only covering stuff that has appeared on 'the net'. There are countless books and magazines, going back many decades and a significant portion of it, has probably never appeared on the net.

 

Yet there are countless threads, where RMweb members have stated that they cannot give books/magazines away, so they have ended up in the skip or recycle.

Then there are also many tales of deceased estates, where the family have tossed collections, large and small railway photographs and memorabilia.

The problem is of course where to store it and how to maintain it all and provide access.

 

The pool of more obscure publications, must be getting smaller & perhaps extinct.

[Nearholmer]

I don't know about other specialist societies, but the NGRS has put a lot of effort into creating a very good, secure library, cared for by two exceedingly dedicated and helpful volunteer librarians.

 

This acts as a focus for the disposal of members' collections, with their unique material being incorporated into the collection, and the duplicated items being offered to other members, or sold to non-members, to raise funds.

 

It is a 'model arrangement', and one can envisage that, over-time, further consolidation of society libraries might occur, heading towards consolidation with the NRM library/archive.

 

In many ways, consolidation of personal collections, into society collections, into one 'national heap' is long overdue, and the same might be said of journal publication .....,.. but I got myself unpopular c35 years ago at an AGM for suggesting a unification of the NGRS and the NG specialist modelling societies (009, 0-16.5, 16mm etc), so probably best I shut up! I've seen how very hard Engineering Institutions find the idea of amalgamation.

[Clive Mortimore]

How much of what's currently available on the internet will continue to be so? To take a very small example, I have pictures up on Flickr. I pay an annual fee for that, paid automatically by credit card. When I shuffle off this mortal coil, those payments will stop as the credit card is cancelled, and those pictures will no longer be available. I'm sure there are many others in the same situation.

Is OK I am sure someone has already down loaded them.

[Allegheny1600]

A blog I follow is Rene Gourleys "Pembroke87": https://pembroke87.wordpress.com/2018/01/24/algonquins-of-pikwakanagan/

A fascinating quote that I found (partially) relevant to this topic;

 

"Prototype modelling is a form of history, and as historians our role – in fact our responsibility – is to face the ugliness alongside the beauty. To sweep objectionable parts of history under the rug is to deny their existence and I think then perpetuate the underlying ugliness. Owning up to the fact that we are not perfect, that we have been (or are!) racist, that there is poverty, that many are disenfranchised is the first step to reconciliation. From there, perhaps we can do something about it."

 

Different to where this topic had gone to, I admit but I found this worth thinking about too.

Cheers,

John.

[bécasse]

False memory can be a problem (hence I try to check things as often as I can against usually reliable primary sources and my own photos, bt there does seem to have been another kind of false memory developing in the model railway world.

 

The problem is that modellers often seem to imagine and then model something as it was on the basis of how it is now, and vice versa.  Thus the generally tidy and well kept linesides and yards that were the most common sights until the late 1960s and even into the early 1970s are represented by the weed strewn ground and the overgrown sidings and embankments etc more redolent of today.  Somehow a false 'modellers' memory' has been created and has taken root as the norm.  Equally methods of train working seem very often to reflect a similar sort of false idea where research of even the most basic kind hasn't taken place.

 

My own concern is that in some cases what has been created as the false memory will become the real memory because of the way models portray things.

 

An even worse problem to my mind is the false impression of the historical railway scene created almost universally by the preservation movement. Not only is the balance of traffic wrong, most railways pre-Beeching were predominately freight rather than passenger movers, but they are hopelessly over-signalled - I understand why, of course, modern conceptions of what is necessary for "safety" tend to result in every possible move being signalled (and even the NER wasn't that generous with its signalling). 

 

Another "problem" that tends to get overlooked is that, prior to the near-universal cut back to a five-day working week c1960, most photographs of railways were actually taken on Saturday afternoons, when the traffic working was atypical. Even if the Saturday timetable looked very similar to the Monday-Friday one (so similar, in fact, that the public book timetable for many lines merely had pages headed "weekdays" with just a few trains marked "SX" and "SO"), stock and loco working was often very different.

[The Stationmaster]

What is an example of your version of a false memory becoming a real memory?

 

Only as in the post Kevin.  I normally take care to check my memory against factual sources, including my own photos before I say anything about anything (not that it avoids entirely the occasional lapse).

 

 So Radyr yard and adjacent running lines in 1973 - working area of the yard comptely clear of any sort of greenery or weeds and the same on the adjacent quadriuple track running lines with basically clear cesses and no overgrowth on the embankment, some shrubbery and grass in areas which don't see everyday footfall.

 

 

WR branch (yes) terminus in June1963 - no sign of any weeds and look at the goods yard ground surface in the foreground

 

 

Branchline track, cess, and embankment etc in mid 1963: no weeds on the track, clear cess path, no trees inside the railway boundary, grass under reasonable control - virtually unrecognisable in comparison with today where the only bit which is clear of trees is the track on the right (the other track has gone and is now partly overgrown by trees, the cess path has vanished - overgrown)

 

[pH]

Is OK I am sure someone has already down loaded them.

Yes, I've seen one in the background of a workbench topic on here!

[Chamby]

In reading the "Unscientific, not guaranteed to be representative, age versus modeled era" poll, it was found that the majority of RMWebbers are within the 50-70 year old age group. That made me think of the future; there will become a time where a model railway exhibition will be filled with 1950s/1960s BR steam/diesel layouts but nor the builders of the layout or the visitors to the exhibition will have lived in that era. Obviously the same could be said of the umpteenth GWR branchline layouts.

 

What will happen to the standards for historical accuracy when the source of information will be in books/internet rather than listening to people's memory? I would think that it would be very difficult to find out answers to questions when I won't be able to ask someone with first hand knowledge on RMWeb, especially since I live across the pond.

 

Not to be foreboding, but the day will come.

I think the standards of accuracy will be not a lot different to today. Many people are modelling stuff they have never seen with their own eyes.

 

It is interesting to note that in war gaming, one of the most popular eras is the Napoleonic war. This still thrives because it was a landmark time in military history, even though it is now well before anyone’s living memory. I think the nationalisation to diesel transition era holds a similar place in railway history. It will always be popular.

[tomparryharry]

My earliest memories are from the very early sixties. I'd guess that I'm fast moving into the minority.

 

A lot of my research started with the 1970'a, when a lot of stuff was only 10-ish years old. After that, I'm either into books, or artefacts that are still extant.

 

Ian.

[Clive Mortimore]

Yes, I've seen one in the background of a workbench topic on here!

They are very nice....now much disc space I have left?

[t-b-g]

The situation can only improve as the years pass. Once everybody who was there at the time is pushing up daisies, there will be nobody left to tell us what we got wrong.

 

The amount of photographs and information on railways in the past may be finite as nobody can go out and take any more but the availability of such photos and other documents to others is still increasing as more books come out and more photos appear on the internet.

 

So we have an increasing amount of information to help us get it right and a decreasing number of people who can tell us we got it wrong.

 

And if we do get something wrong, does it actually really matter unless we are presenting our models as 100% historically accurate representations? How many of us think that we are capable of 100% accuracy? Anybody who thinks a model done by another is 100% accurate and bases what they themselves are doing on that premise gets what they deserve!

Edited January 25, 2018 by t-b-g

[Ozexpatriate]

The discussion on false and unreliable memories is interesting.

 

According to a neuroscience documentary that I watched, which I have accepted as accurate, it is demonstrably proven that false memories can be deliberately implanted. The programme went on to say that each time a memory is 'retrieved' the neurons that formed it are reconnected. If they are not reconnected the same way, the memory can change. (Which suggests to me that it might explain how rote memorization works, in terms of reinforcing the neuron connectivity.)

 

I have a railway related memory that is questionable. I have an indistinct memory of railway crossing gates at the level crossing near where I grew up. (The level crossing was not visible from my house, so I only saw it when going to the shops with my mum.) Somewhere toward the end of the 1960s (when I was still quite young and likely a pre-schooler) the gates were replaced by an automatic barrier. I distinctly remember my mum animatedly talking about the new "boom" gates. What I can't be sure of is whether I actually remember the old crossing gates. In my mind's eye I can see them, but whether this is a reconstruction of having imagined crossing gates (knowing what they look like) installed in that location or an actual first-hand memory, I cannot tell.

 

I also have an indistinct memory of mum telling me to wave to the driver of a steam locomotive at the crossing, but can't remember whether we were standing nearby or in the car. From speaking with her, I know this happened and more than once.

[APOLLO]

Reality. Belle Green Lane level crossing, Higher Ince, Wigan - LNWR New Springs branch, closed 1958.(this portion).

 

 

My model, based on this picture and my faded memories (aged 6) swinging on the gates while a mucky old Dub D clanked past.

 

 

Brit15

Edited January 25, 2018 by APOLLO

[Mike Storey]

The discussion on false and unreliable memories is interesting.

 

According to a neuroscience documentary that I watched, which I have accepted as accurate, it is demonstrably proven that false memories can be deliberately implanted. The programme went on to say that each time a memory is 'retrieved' the neurons that formed it are reconnected. If they are not reconnected the same way, the memory can change. (Which suggests to me that it might explain how rote memorization works, in terms of reinforcing the neuron connectivity.)

 

I have a railway related memory that is questionable. I have an indistinct memory of railway crossing gates at the level crossing near where I grew up. (The level crossing was not visible from my house, so I only saw it when going to the shops with my mum.) Somewhere toward the end of the 1960s (when I was still quite young and likely a pre-schooler) the gates were replaced by an automatic barrier. I distinctly remember my mum animatedly talking about the new "boom" gates. What I can't be sure of is whether I actually remember the old crossing gates. In my mind's eye I can see them, but whether this is a reconstruction of having imagined crossing gates (knowing what they look like) installed in that location or an actual first-hand memory, I cannot tell.

 

I also have an indistinct memory of mum telling me to wave to the driver of a steam locomotive at the crossing, but can't remember whether we were standing nearby or in the car. From speaking with her, I know this happened and more than once.

 

Ah, but are you sure you have correctly remembered what the documentary said......?  

[Mike Storey]

I am not sure what counts as earliest recollections. I do remember my Dad engineering my positioning on the footplate of a steam loco on the stops at Liverpool Street, when I was about 3 or 4 (I think). It was probably on one of our many jaunts to stay with my grandparents in Lowestoft (where I was born - I don't remember that bit). I do remember literally p1ssing myself when the driver moved the loco about four feet, and screaming and screaming, until I was sick, to be taken off. I did not get the loco number number, sorry.

 

Perhaps that omen should have deterred me from a lifelong career, and explains why I did not take as many photos as I should, at the time......No wonder I model BR Blue, when I might have been sh1tting myself in my head, at my first derailment, my first suicide, my first real shunting in front of old lags, and my first SM Rules & Regs exam, but never in my trousers.

[Ozexpatriate]

Ah, but are you sure you have correctly remembered what the documentary said......?  

No, but you can fact check me here (though I suspect it won't play for you).  I do thoroughly recommend the series. Every episode was very thought provoking for me, less so the last episode.

 

In episode two, "What makes me?" the following is covered:

Dr Eagleman explores memory as an important pillar of self, and reveals that rather than being a faithful record of our past, memory is fallible and often unreliable, making our life of memories more personal mythology than digital recording.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Vistisen]

It seems one major problem in the future will be the lack of old photographs. Talk to older people about some local event and they may bring out some old photo album which shows some detail not previously noticed. Now that photographs are mostly stored on some sort of electronic device, when that dies the pictures disappear. In the future there will be a considerable lack of detail about early 21st century life.

there is a practice called backup. That solves this problem.devices die yes. And paper fades... backup can restore devices. But faded paper is just gone

[Vistisen]

I think that one of the hindrances to historical accuracy in the future is the plethora of seamless image editing programs that are available to everyone now. It might well be beyond the skill of the average person to determine whether a photo or video has been altered / enhanced or not thereby making it impossible to judge the accuracy of what they are seeing.

this is not new. Trotsky was removed from photos of Stalin about 75 years ago

[Northmoor]

I think that one of the hindrances to historical accuracy in the future is the plethora of seamless image editing programs that are available to everyone now. It might well be beyond the skill of the average person to determine whether a photo or video has been altered / enhanced or not thereby making it impossible to judge the accuracy of what they are seeing.

Actually there will still be ways of proving/disproving.  The original time stamp will be a giveaway - Bob says he saw loco coming across Puddlecombe viaduct unassisted with 12 on, has the photo to "prove" it and swears the photo, in glorious sunshine, was unretouched.  However, three other people can independently produce photos of the same loco, on the same day (time-stamped) on shed 200 miles away.  Plus Bob couldn't have taken the first photo, because Met Office records say he would have been standing in a blizzard.

 

OK so it's an extreme example, but that is why telling the truth is always easier, you only have to remember one version of the story.  It is almost impossible for the truth-tellers to be outnumbered by liars.

 

It seems one major problem in the future will be the lack of old photographs. Talk to older people about some local event and they may bring out some old photo album which shows some detail not previously noticed. Now that photographs are mostly stored on some sort of electronic device, when that dies the pictures disappear. In the future there will be a considerable lack of detail about early 21st century life.

 

This has always concerned people since digital photography started.  In fact, a huge proportion of the negatives/slides ever taken have been lost, destroyed by fire and flood or simply binned.  A massive proportion of digital images have been copied into multiple places, so they will always survive somewhere.  I have yet to hear of an old digital format - and there are already plenty of obsolete ones - which cannot be recovered by converting to another, readable format.  Perhaps a bigger problem is how many anal-retentives like me, who used to fastidiously label printed photographs, never enter any detail in the digital file properties.......

[bbishop]

Interesting thread. One of the issues is the preservation of old photographs, both glass plate and celluloid. The NRM has a huge collection which are kept in a temperature controlled environment. Some of the negatives are 150 years old. There are teams of volunteers who are digitally copying these negatives for the NRM.

 

In some cases the negatives are "delaminated" and must be reconstructed on the light box before the image can be replicated.

 

Bill

[kevinlms]

I don't know about other specialist societies, but the NGRS has put a lot of effort into creating a very good, secure library, cared for by two exceedingly dedicated and helpful volunteer librarians.

 

This acts as a focus for the disposal of members' collections, with their unique material being incorporated into the collection, and the duplicated items being offered to other members, or sold to non-members, to raise funds.

 

It is a 'model arrangement', and one can envisage that, over-time, further consolidation of society libraries might occur, heading towards consolidation with the NRM library/archive.

 

In many ways, consolidation of personal collections, into society collections, into one 'national heap' is long overdue, and the same might be said of journal publication .....,.. but I got myself unpopular c35 years ago at an AGM for suggesting a unification of the NGRS and the NG specialist modelling societies (009, 0-16.5, 16mm etc), so probably best I shut up! I've seen how very hard Engineering Institutions find the idea of amalgamation.

The problem being that if say Society XYZ was going to make a complete set available (of say Railway Modeller, for the sake of discussion) and announced it here on RMweb, calling for donations.

 

What would happen?

 

50 members would turn up with random boxes of the things, with the average containing between 2 and 50 issues from the 1970s. Where is it going to be stored, while a limited number of 'volunteers' get to sort out the vast pile? You can guarantee though, that regardless of how many contribute randomly, you won't end up with a complete set of the 1970s, you'll be 3 missing from a complete set, but a have a truck full of duplicates.

 

A great idea, but a huge ask. Granted it gets easier the more volunteers, but it has to be co-ordinated and an agreement made way beforehand, as to how the collection is to exist.

Two schools of course, keep the originals or scan the lot (or both). To scan properly, you need to dismantle a near mint example of each & automatically scan the lot.

 

An example can be found here. 

 

https://archive.org/details/RailwayModellerJanuary1963

 

Too bad no one has done the rest!

[john flann]

I write from memory (of an old man) that I believe a copy of every book or periodical published in the UK is required to be deposited with the British Museum.

 

I recall also that when working in Somerset House (in an attic up in the roof, but with a fine view of the Thames) during the early 1970's at lunch times I would go to a British Museum (?) library in nearby Chancery Lane and there peruse back copies of model railway magazines.

 

Whether it is still there I do not know (I left the UK in 1990), but if it does and the requirement to deposit copies still applies, this archive in the custody of the British Museum will always be there to refer to.

Edited January 26, 2018 by john flann

[pH]

The British Library gets a copy of everything published in the UK. Five other libraries are entitled to request a copy of anything published in the UK - National Library of Scotland, National Library of Wales, the Bodleian Library at Oxford University, Cambridge University Library and the Library of Trinity College Dublin. The right of TCD to copyright deposit predates 1922 and, in return, the UK deposit libraries retain the right to Irish publications. The UK libraries, other than the British Library, do not request copies of everything they are entitled to.

 

So yes, as John says, The British Library should retain everything published.