What will happen to historical/prototypical accuracy once everyone who lived in that era is gone?

[Dunsignalling]

I see no cause for concern, as we were increasingly encompass the digital age , virtually everyone's whole life is being recorded, so the 21th century is likely to be recorded to a detail never seen before.

 

Future modellers will have access to a treasure of images , sound , and text like never before

Always supposing that the hardware and software of the future is made sufficiently backwards compatible to access it all. 

 

Contemporary example: If someone gave you a floppy disc with some valuable information on it, could you read it?

 

John

[jonny777]

It doesn't even have to be that old. 

 

When I installed the latest upgrade of my laptop operating system, I noticed afterwards that a few of the software applications on my ext HD had suddenly become incompatible with the new system. There seemed to be no way that I could downgrade my OS to the previous one, so I am stuck with programs which no longer work. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by jonny777

[tomparryharry]

In the case of historical accuracy, some producers are "waiting for the old people to die".

[FPH 603]

I once proposed to model a station that closed 30 years ago. And when I looked it up I got a fair bit of information, and I thought I was ready to make it. One day I came across this station, by then it was restored as a park. The first time I saw it I could only see it out of the window of the car, but then I came back a second time to have a look at it properly. Once I was there I could already imagine what it would have been like before the station closed, based off all that information I already had. I also had a look at another station nearby, which was overgrown and the platform was still there, with traces of the buildings which once sat there. No track or much infrastructure either though. Although it was still enough to give a good idea of what it would have been like back when it was still in use.

[Northmoor]

Always supposing that the hardware and software of the future is made sufficiently backwards compatible to access it all. 

 

Contemporary example: If someone gave you a floppy disc with some valuable information on it, could you read it?

 

John

I've already said on this thread, there are many obsolete file formats and there has never been one yet that can't be opened by someone. I agree, I might not be able to read a 3.5" floppy disk any more but there will be thousands of people out there who could do it for me.  There are numerous places who will convert analogue home video to digital, for all those people whose hardware has died (that's me included).

 

Just because I can't open a file personally doesn't mean it's lost.  I repeat, infinitely more paper and traditional photographic records have been lost than will ever be lost from the digital archive.

[Andy Hayter]

The problem is perhaps not so much that the items will be lost (because as you say they will still be there) but more that no one can find them.

 

They will be the digital equivalent of a set of glass negatives stored in the loft of someone who is physically three or four times removed from the person who took the original pictures - and in no way related to them.  Even if found, the likelihood of their significance being recognised is rather small.

[Clive Mortimore]

In reading the "Unscientific, not guaranteed to be representative, age versus modeled era" poll, it was found that the majority of RMWebbers are within the 50-70 year old age group. That made me think of the future; there will become a time where a model railway exhibition will be filled with 1950s/1960s BR steam/diesel layouts but nor the builders of the layout or the visitors to the exhibition will have lived in that era. Obviously the same could be said of the umpteenth GWR branchline layouts.

 

What will happen to the standards for historical accuracy when the source of information will be in books/internet rather than listening to people's memory? I would think that it would be very difficult to find out answers to questions when I won't be able to ask someone with first hand knowledge on RMWeb, especially since I live across the pond.

 

Not to be foreboding, but the day will come.

I have been giving this some thought.

 

First we don't have to have be 6 feet under for the accuracy of historic information to be wrong. I spent my formative railway interest on the end of platform 4 (renumbered platform 2) at Bedford Midland Road station. I have seen photos that claim this favorite spot of mine to be Ampthill station with a DMU, the class 127s were introduced after Ampthill station had closed. It had been called Leicester, thankfully I was able to have a chat with the person doing the slide show who thanked me and said he never did think it was Leicester but wasn't too sure where it was. The problem with both these photos is the view is not the same today. In 1978 the station was rebuilt and by 1990 W H Allen whose factory provided the backdrop had closed and is now a housing estate.

 

Second, when I am gone I won't need to worry.

[FPH 603]

I have been giving this some thought.

 

First we don't have to have be 6 feet under for the accuracy of historic information to be wrong. I spent my formative railway interest on the end of platform 4 (renumbered platform 2) at Bedford Midland Road station. I have seen photos that claim this favorite spot of mine to be Ampthill station with a DMU, the class 127s were introduced after Ampthill station had closed. It had been called Leicester, thankfully I was able to have a chat with the person doing the slide show who thanked me and said he never did think it was Leicester but wasn't too sure where it was. The problem with both these photos is the view is not the same today. In 1978 the station was rebuilt and by 1990 W H Allen whose factory provided the backdrop had closed and is now a housing estate.

 

Second, when I am gone I won't need to worry.

Well you're lucky if you even get to have experiences like that! Firstly I live in a completely different country and secondly I was born far too late to see such things. I could only wish to see such experiences from decades ago. The closest thing I can get to a 1st generation DMU is a NSW 1970's built electric! Seeing one preserved is good, sure but I still wonder what it would have been like to travel on one in service.

[Junctionmad]

But will the copyright issue be solved? A lot of content is protected by copyright and not all publishers are happy to put out for free. An example has already been posted, where the entire collection of Railway Magazine is available digitally, but only accessible to current subscribers.

 

no said all this information would be free, merely that it would be accessible 

[Coryton]

The problem is perhaps not so much that the items will be lost (because as you say they will still be there) but more that no one can find them.

 

They will be the digital equivalent of a set of glass negatives stored in the loft of someone who is physically three or four times removed from the person who took the original pictures - and in no way related to them.  Even if found, the likelihood of their significance being recognised is rather small.

 

We might be underestimating what computers will be able to do for us in the future.

 

If we were having this discussion a few decades ago, we might not have forseen the extent to which Google lets you search for things inside printed books.

[Junctionmad]

Always supposing that the hardware and software of the future is made sufficiently backwards compatible to access it all. 

 

Contemporary example: If someone gave you a floppy disc with some valuable information on it, could you read it?

 

John

 

you seem to forget the Internet .  The fact is that more and more data is being loaded onto the " net " every day .  once in a digital form , you can always " read it"

 

really I think people are having a laugh , trying to argue against the availability of more data not less

 

 

Let me give you and example and yes its from  the recent past.

 

Im modelling a station in Ireland , as it was in 1978 - 1980 . Irish railways especially in the pre-digital camera age suffered from a tremendous lack of photography in general compared with their  British counterparts 

 

and yes I was allowed to do a photographic survey of the remaining structure, yet by the time I reached it in 2016 , a huge amount had changed ( and even after that all the track was basically ripped up in 2017 ) and its 200 miles from my door, so its not like I can pop around. 

 

 

SO I cast out across  the web, came across isolated pictures on Flickr , SIgnalbox.org etc . Magazines. I then emailed the authors ( or their descendants ) and over a period of 18 months gradually collected  close to 700 photographs of the prototype many from around the era I was interested in , including signalling surveys , scans of old maps , cine converted to digital etc . I was also able to access free of charge the O'dea collection of high quality photos of the period ( and from the 50s )  from the National library of Ireland , all online and free , ordinance survey maps, etc 

 

add to that my own records of close to 300 photos taken during my site survey ( which I will put online ) , 

 

Now I can trace the development of the buildings ( I can ascertain when the goods shed was reproofed and the differences )  , I can see signalling changes over the decades , track mods, pictures and cine , all online showing stock movements, people sent me scans of books, WTTs etc etc . I can single step through movies to extract images that interest me. 

 

All from the comfort of my PC. Are there certain gaps , of course , nothing is perfect , but its better then ever before 

 

Imagine doing that 25 years ago !!!.   for a station 40 years before that , i.e. researching the 40s  in the 80s !!!..  almost impossible , pre email , pre Google !!!!

 

 

Thats all only going to get better as more and more is digital and on the net 

 

and yes, the process was amazingly interesting , to see how people and the station evolved over 40-50 years , dress, habits , traffic pattens , even the surrounding housing booms etc 

 

we are entering a golden age, the issue will be more to sieve  the wheat from the chaff and an excess of riches , rather then not have enough data 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Junctionmad

[melmerby]

can anyone in the UK now read the BBC’s mega-Domesday Book, stored on huge laser disks?

 

Paul

Yes, The content isn't lost to Laser Discs it's also available in other formats.

 

Keith

[tigerburnie]

My reason for starting on the Great Central is that is where I grew up and spent around 10 years trackside,(I actually lived close to it for longer), but I am already finding that is hard to remember things as well as you think you did, I do have access to pictures, but I think it is fair to say that folk don't seem to be around now who do remember much. My layout will be "representative", and is already giving me pleasure re living part of my "yoof". I walked along the track, climbed trees and built dens and fished on the canal and river along side it, but when I see a photograph, I realise I remember less than I thought I did. I have realised there's not much point asking questions about fine detail as I get different answers to the same question. Fair to say if anyone who knew the area I am modeling sees it, they will recognise it.

[Reorte]

Just because I can't open a file personally doesn't mean it's lost.  I repeat, infinitely more paper and traditional photographic records have been lost than will ever be lost from the digital archive.

I'm not so sure about that (and not just because of the numbers, i.e. losing 10% of digital photos would be far more photos than 10% of prints at some point, probably even now). When the hardware it's stored on becomes obsolete, does everything get transferred over? You might inherit your dad's old box of prints but how many people will bother with his old hard disc? Preserving digital material requires active maintainance and deliberate action as preserving physical. Photos stored on the servers of private companies or even individuals? An awful lot there which we can get at right now, which is great, but I really don't see any reason to have faith that that's long-term robust.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Reorte

[jonny777]

I've already said on this thread, there are many obsolete file formats and there has never been one yet that can't be opened by someone. I agree, I might not be able to read a 3.5" floppy disk any more but there will be thousands of people out there who could do it for me.  

 

 

That's good, but how many can read data on a 5.25" floppy disk? Or, better still, an 8" floppy (no double-entendres please)?

[PatB]

 The closest thing I can get to a 1st generation DMU is a NSW 1970's built electric! Seeing one preserved is good, sure but I still wonder what it would have been like to travel on one in service.

 

If you can get access to a coolroom, a garden bench, a badly balanced washing machine and a diesel ute that needs its injectors doing you've got the basics for a pretty convincing simulator. If you can lay hands on a jackhammer as well, you can have one with a wheel-flat too .

 

Seriously though, some of my most enjoyable UK rail journeys were spent sitting just behind the cab of a 1st gen DMU .

[FPH 603]

If you can get access to a coolroom, a garden bench, a badly balanced washing machine and a diesel ute that needs its injectors doing you've got the basics for a pretty convincing simulator. If you can lay hands on a jackhammer as well, you can have one with a wheel-flat too .

 

Seriously though, some of my most enjoyable UK rail journeys were spent sitting just behind the cab of a 1st gen DMU .

We once had 'Railmotors' which were much closer to UK 1st generation DMU's, but most of these were gone by the 1990's, the last ones were withdrawn in 2006, Plenty are preserved and occasionally one will be brought out for a tour. Despite me living in the right era to see them in service (over 10 years ago) I have no memory of seeing them as they worked mainly the Newcastle and Hunter Valley areas of NSW, neither of which I lived near. Although I do plan to go find another preserved unit (unfortunately not operational) in that area soon. There are very few photos of them I've found there and I sometimes wonder if they're still there.

[Ozexpatriate]

We once had 'Railmotors' which were much closer to UK 1st generation DMU's, but most of these were gone by the 1990's, the last ones were withdrawn in 2006, 

NSW became home to preserved Queensland Railways 2000 class railmotors on the Zig Zag. From this page I presume they had perhaps three sets in various states of repair and I am not sure what will remain after the bushfires - from photographs one of them, (2016), was clearly heavily damaged and I have no idea if it can be rebuilt or if there is the will and funding to do so.

 

I remember very them well in normal service. We used to call them "silver bullets" which was a hopelessly optimistic term. Nevertheless they accelerated well and were a marked contrast to the Edwardian suburban coaches that saw regular service through the 1970s and even into the 1980s in suburban Brisbane. At that time, they were frequently employed in off-peak suburban service in the middle of the day..

[kevinlms]

no said all this information would be free, merely that it would be accessible

Yes that is what I said. What I was intending to say is that most publishers don't allow their products to generally be available on a 'pay to view' basis.

 

For example, Peco allow a few years back issues to be available to digital subscribers of Railway Modeller only. If you don't subscribe, there is no means to view any content at all, except by acquiring 2nd hand back issues. Even those who purchase the paper version cannot access the online site.

 

People do ask for scans of articles on RMWEB, for which I don't agree.

 

If you check back my posts, you will find that I frequently give references on where articles might be found.

[melmerby]

That's good, but how many can read data on a 5.25" floppy disk? Or, better still, an 8" floppy (no double-entendres please)?

I think you will find there are plenty around for anyone who needs or wants to get any info off the appropriate disks that isn't already out there on another format.

 

 

There is this guy who can mass read 3.5" floppies:

https://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/floppy-autoloader-to-archive-thousands-of-disks-automatically-1479983/

 

Or the 8" Challenge:

http://openpreservation.org/blog/2016/09/01/an-8-floppy-disk-challenge/

 

Keith

Edited January 31, 2018 by melmerby

[DaveF]

Yes that is what I said. What I was intending to say is that most publishers don't allow their products to generally be available on a 'pay to view' basis.

 

For example, Peco allow a few years back issues to be available to digital subscribers of Railway Modeller only. If you don't subscribe, there is no means to view any content at all, except by acquiring 2nd hand back issues. Even those who purchase the paper version cannot access the online site.

 

People do ask for scans of articles on RMWEB, for which I don't agree.

 

If you check back my posts, you will find that I frequently give references on where articles might be found.

 

 

Here in the UK my print subscriptions to Peco's Railway Modeller and Continental Modeller do give me access to the digital issues, including the back numbers, as long as I keep my subscription.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I really don't expect to be able to find all the information I need without paying for at least some of it - which is why I have a lot of books, mainly bought cheaply second hand.

 

David

[Coryton]

 

we are entering a golden age, the issue will be more to sieve  the wheat from the chaff and an excess of riches , rather then not have enough data 

 

I suspect that computers will get increasingly good at doing that for us.

 

I'm not so sure about that (and not just because of the numbers, i.e. losing 10% of digital photos would be far more photos than 10% of prints at some point, probably even now). When the hardware it's stored on becomes obsolete, does everything get transferred over? You might inherit your dad's old box of prints but how many people will bother with his old hard disc? Preserving digital material requires active maintainance and deliberate action as preserving physical. Photos stored on the servers of private companies or even individuals? An awful lot there which we can get at right now, which is great, but I really don't see any reason to have faith that that's long-term robust.

 

I think for individuals the lack of robustness is a genuine concern - there will probably be family photographs that sink without a trace whereas physical prints would have remained.

 

(On the other hand, if photos are backed up remotely, they will survive house fires, floods etc.)

 

But overall....so 0.1% of people do bother with dad's old hard disc and copy it onto something else and so on....that's still a LOT of photographs.

 

Not to mention all the ones uploaded to web sites and the like, then downloaded by other people etc. etc. The more copies there are of a photo floating around, the greater chance of survival.

 

There will no doubt be winners and losers, but I am convinced that - barring some kind of catastrophe - we are currently a lot better off than we were before.

[kevinlms]

Here in the UK my print subscriptions to Peco's Railway Modeller and Continental Modeller do give me access to the digital issues, including the back numbers, as long as I keep my subscription.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I really don't expect to be able to find all the information I need without paying for at least some of it - which is why I have a lot of books, mainly bought cheaply second hand.

 

David

But for readers of RM such as myself, who has purchased and still has each copy* of it since November 1973. From either hobby shops or the local newsagents, has no right to access the online back numbers at all. That's rather unfair.

 

 

* Except 3. One has got lost, one the newsagent stuffed up :-( and one issue that never made it to Australia (due to a dispatch error, apparently).

[Coryton]

But for readers of RM such as myself, who has purchased and still has each copy* of it since November 1973. From either hobby shops or the local newsagents, has no right to access the online back numbers at all. That's rather unfair.

 

Yes that's a good point and it does seem a rather unfair reward for people who support local newsagents.

 

It ought not to be impossible for something to be arranged for people who place a regular order with a newsagent, though perhaps not worth the bother from their point of view.

[Reorte]

There will no doubt be winners and losers, but I am convinced that - barring some kind of catastrophe - we are currently a lot better off than we were before.

I think that's probably the case. I also think we're too early in its history to know for sure just how well digital data will be preserved - and accessible. I'd certainly say that the odds are certainly on a lot better off though.