What will happen to historical/prototypical accuracy once everyone who lived in that era is gone?

[kevinlms]

The British Library gets a copy of everything published in the UK. Five other libraries are entitled to request a copy of anything published in the UK - National Library of Scotland, National Library of Wales, the Bodleian Library at Oxford University, Cambridge University Library and the Library of Trinity College Dublin. The right of TCD to copyright deposit predates 1922 and, in return, the UK deposit libraries retain the right to Irish publications. The UK libraries, other than the British Library, do not request copies of everything they are entitled to.

 

So yes, as John says, The British Library should retain everything published.

But what happens if the publisher never sent it, either through ignorance or just didn't. I'll bet that none of the libraries chased up 'missing items'.

[pH]

But what happens if the publisher never sent it, either through ignorance or just didn't. I'll bet that none of the libraries chased up 'missing items'.

Yes, we did!

[kevinlms]

Yes, we did!

Interesting. What level of publications were actively chased? I can see major newspapers, book publishers etc. But what about guides etc of preserved railways.

 

How good is the collections, are they still intact?

[pH]

Interesting. What level of publications were actively chased? I can see major newspapers, book publishers etc. But what about guides etc of preserved railways.

 

How good is the collections, are they still intact?

 

Kevin, I last worked in the UK over 35 years ago, and haven't kept in touch for many years with people I worked with, so I can't comment on practices which have changed since I was involved.

Edited January 26, 2018 by pH

[jonny777]

The British Library gets a copy of everything published in the UK. Five other libraries are entitled to request a copy of anything published in the UK - National Library of Scotland, National Library of Wales, the Bodleian Library at Oxford University, Cambridge University Library and the Library of Trinity College Dublin. The right of TCD to copyright deposit predates 1922 and, in return, the UK deposit libraries retain the right to Irish publications. The UK libraries, other than the British Library, do not request copies of everything they are entitled to.

 

So yes, as John says, The British Library should retain everything published.

 

 

 

But playing Devil's Advocate here, how many people in (say) 2055 are going to rush down to the British Library in order to find out when the last GNR somersault signal was replaced at Heckington station? 

[PatB]

But playing Devil's Advocate here, how many people in (say) 2055 are going to rush down to the British Library in order to find out when the last GNR somersault signal was replaced at Heckington station? 

 

Those who can lay any claim to producing an accurate historical record will (or do the 2055 equivalent), as will those who enjoy meticulous research for it's own sake. Everyone else will do as they've always done. That is, produce a model that accords, to their satisfaction. with the historical research that they're prepared to do.

[Andy Hayter]

But playing Devil's Advocate here, how many people in (say) 2055 are going to rush down to the British Library in order to find out when the last GNR somersault signal was replaced at Heckington station? 

 

About as many who currently go to Kew to get the original records at source.  Who knows, given the apparent increase in interest for pre-grouping - which might be translated 40 years hence in an increased interest in the glory days of grouping - maybe more

 

Edited to add:  It must be more difficult for libraries these days with the number of self publishers.  I wonder, is it Amazon and similar companies who are responsible for supplying the copy, or the self publisher himself?   I can confirm however that a club I belong to (non railway) produced a quarterly journal (through a printer rather than a publisher) with a few copies made available for sale, and we were requested to supply a copy to the British Library and in return got our ISBN? number.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Andy Hayter

[Coryton]

Interesting. What level of publications were actively chased? I can see major newspapers, book publishers etc. But what about guides etc of preserved railways.

 

How good is the collections, are they still intact?

 

I always thought it was driven by ISBN/ISSN.

 

So - no matter how minor your publication is, if you get an ISBN/ISSN for it you should send a copy to the British Library.

[kevinlms]

I always thought it was driven by ISBN/ISSN.

 

So - no matter how minor your publication is, if you get an ISBN/ISSN for it you should send a copy to the British Library.

OK that makes a lot of sense. The British book publishers were very much behind the ISBN system, including Ian Allan & WH Smith.

Edited January 27, 2018 by kevinlms

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting thread. One of the issues is the preservation of old photographs, both glass plate and celluloid. The NRM has a huge collection which are kept in a temperature controlled environment. Some of the negatives are 150 years old. There are teams of volunteers who are digitally copying these negatives for the NRM.

 

In some cases the negatives are "delaminated" and must be reconstructed on the light box before the image can be replicated.

 

Bill

 

And they've got plenty that they haven't got a clue where they are.  They occasionally print some of the Western ones and send them to Steam at Swindon - who then invite visitors to say what and where they are; you can imagine some of the results of that!

[jonny777]

Those who can lay any claim to producing an accurate historical record will (or do the 2055 equivalent), as will those who enjoy meticulous research for it's own sake. Everyone else will do as they've always done. That is, produce a model that accords, to their satisfaction. with the historical research that they're prepared to do.

 

 

 

And yet, had the country decided to celebrate the millennium with some kind of national encyclopaedia of 20th century life, as told by as many folk as could be interviewed; maybe one (or more) of the signalmen on that line would have been able to give that information themselves without any problem?

 

(Forgive my persistence, but it is a bugbear of mine that each year hundreds of thousands of folk pass away in the UK and the vast majority take with them all manner of facts and recollections. Who knows how useful these snippets might have been for future generations?). 

[Fenman]

And yet, had the country decided to celebrate the millennium with some kind of national encyclopaedia of 20th century life, as told by as many folk as could be interviewed; maybe one (or more) of the signalmen on that line would have been able to give that information themselves without any problem?

 

(Forgive my persistence, but it is a bugbear of mine that each year hundreds of thousands of folk pass away in the UK and the vast majority take with them all manner of facts and recollections. Who knows how useful these snippets might have been for future generations?).

Except see recent posts on RMweb from railwaymen (and others) with False Recovered Memory Syndrome (or maybe a more innocuous variation of that).

 

Paul

[Mark Saunders]

Except see recent posts on RMweb from railwaymen (and others) with False Recovered Memory Syndrome (or maybe a more innocuous variation of that).

Paul

It has always been the same try remembering yesterday and it does not just apply to Railwaymen!

 

Mark Saunders

[Coryton]

Except see recent posts on RMweb from railwaymen (and others) with False Recovered Memory Syndrome (or maybe a more innocuous variation of that).

 

Paul

 

OK but - so long as people are aware of the fallibility of human memory, surely a set of recollections is better than nothing?

[phil gollin]

.

 

The British Library is NOT wonderful for company (including British Railways) publications as these were private, not public.

 

--------

 

One thing that I find difficult to understand even know is how people spoke/acted.  Biographies are often descriptive of places/things, but what dialogue is included is often edited either due to the passage of time or fading memory.  Was the language from a station master to a porter formal, or "robust" ?  We all have seen the tortured vowels of "ordinary" working class people talking on 1930's to 60's films trying to appear more middle class than their normal speech.  I remember that in the early 60's public "swearing " (bloody !) was rare in public during daylight hours, with people telling offenders off if it happened.  However, at night, around pubs the language was worse.  HOWEVER, by the late 70's swearing was common and widespread.   I am sure there are any number of academic tomes recording the changes.

 

.

[TheSignalEngineer]

And they've got plenty that they haven't got a clue where they are.  They occasionally print some of the Western ones and send them to Steam at Swindon - who then invite visitors to say what and where they are; you can imagine some of the results of that!

Or when they were taken. I caught out an ex-WR man in my office with a photo of a preserved Castle passing through a GWR station which had its original building and footbridge more or less intact and painted in GWR style. The print was done in black and white, cropped to avoid the BR lamp posts with corporate signs. At first he was sure it must have been taken in the 1930s or 40s, but when told to look closer he noticed the flat bottom track on concrete sleepers in front of the loco and Mk2 coach with window-hangers behind it.

[jjb1970]

.

 

One thing that I find difficult to understand even know is how people spoke/acted.  Biographies are often descriptive of places/things, but what dialogue is included is often edited either due to the passage of time or fading memory.  Was the language from a station master to a porter formal, or "robust" ?  We all have seen the tortured vowels of "ordinary" working class people talking on 1930's to 60's films trying to appear more middle class than their normal speech.  I remember that in the early 60's public "swearing " (bloody !) was rare in public during daylight hours, with people telling offenders off if it happened.  However, at night, around pubs the language was worse.  HOWEVER, by the late 70's swearing was common and widespread.   I am sure there are any number of academic tomes recording the changes.

 

.

That has definitely been a change for the worse, although once swearing and foul language is a part of everyday speech is it still swearing. I am not too prudish, and I've used enough choice words myself but I find it sad that so many people seem to be genuinely incapable of communicating without including expletives in every sentence. When I use trains it is normal now to hear people using expletives in normal conversation regardless of who may be sitting in close proximity (such as children), and it is not really a class thing as well dressed business people are just as likely to break into a torrent of expletives as anybody else. I'm amazed not so much at the way children are happy to swear in public but at how many parents don't bat an eyelid at it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

[Junctionmad]

........Maybe I'm just getting old.

Yup, that's probably it

[Nearholmer]

I think that if you study the long history of foul language, swear words become less offensive over time, being replaced by new ones at the top of the hierarchy of offensiveness. New ones arrive from all sorts of sources: subculture slang; immigration etc, and I guess that because we have such a long history, richly diverse culture and language, English is better provided with foul words than any other language. Makes you proud, eh?

 

Probably each generation hears words in widespread use that were barely spoken in public in its youth.

 

There are now ‘dodgy’ words, and outright offensive and/or revolting words, that didn’t even exist in English fifty years ago ..... try ‘urban dictionary’ to find out how to swear in modern English if, like me, you are too old to have learned at school.

[Mark Saunders]

I think that if you study the long history of foul language, swear words become less offensive over time, being replaced by new ones at the top of the hierarchy of offensiveness. New ones arrive from all sorts of sources: subculture slang; immigration etc, and I guess that because we have such a long history, richly diverse culture and language, English is better provided with foul words than any other language. Makes you proud, eh?

Probably each generation hears words in widespread use that were barely spoken in public in its youth.

There are now ‘dodgy’ words, and outright offensive and/or revolting words, that didn’t even exist in English fifty years ago ..... try ‘urban dictionary’ to find out how to swear in modern English if, like me, you are too old to have learned at school.

Words change their meaning:-

 

Ask Nigel Farrage about

 

African Brown became a colour even though in other languages it is black

 

And what were the LNER thinking about Gay Crusader

 

As per the Perishers ‘the mind boggles’

[Mark Saunders]

Words change their meaning:-

Ask Nigel Farrage about ######

African Brown became a colour even though in other languages it is black

And what were the LNER thinking about Gay Crusader

As per the Perishers ‘the mind boggles’

Even as I posted This was auto censored!

[Fenman]

...

And what were the LNER thinking about Gay Crusader

...

They were clearly far ahead of their time in their proud celebration of diversity.

 

Paul

[Talltim]

They were clearly far ahead of their time in their proud celebration of diversity.

 

Paul

Behind horse breeders but ahead of the Navy (not sure about P1044) Edited January 28, 2018 by Talltim

[jjb1970]

I was once on the interviewing panel for a legal role (I'm not a lawyer, but I was supposed to be the line manager for the role) and one lady with an impeccable CV who came back for a second interview when we got down to two candidates used s**t a couple of times. The CEO of the organisation who was part of the second interviews opinion was that if she was going to use words like that in an interview she'd use them when representing the organisation and red lined her. I thought it was a bit odd but maybe she wasn't the odd one out. That said, you'd hope people would have the sense to figure out that swearing in a job interview isn't a good idea (at least not for a corporate legal role which included a lot of external representation).

[Northmoor]

That has definitely been a change for the worse, although once swearing and foul language is a part of everyday speech is it still swearing. I am not too prudish, and I've used enough choice words myself but I find it sad that so many people seem to be genuinely incapable of communicating without including expletives in every sentence. When I use trains it is normal now to hear people using expletives in normal conversation regardless of who may be sitting in close proximity (such as children), and it is not really a class thing as well dressed business people are just as likely to break into a torrent of expletives as anybody else. I'm amazed not so much at the way children are happy to swear in public but at how many parents don't bat an eyelid at it. Maybe I'm just getting old.

You're not.  Swearing is more common now in all sorts of scenarios and I often wince too, although I can swear appallingly, usually when under my car trying to loosen a reluctant bolt.

 

Earlier in my career I worked in heavy engineering and on RN warships with sailors and learned a whole new vocabulary, but I heard far worse in a consultancy business.  There was one individual working in a sales management role who would swear repeatedly in meetings; I came to the conclusion it wasn't just ignorance, they did it deliberately to indicate they were a passionate and driven person.  Most of my and his colleagues concluded that he was just a t****r.