Fitting out The Shed [Was: Unconverted loft? Expensive shed?]

[hayfield]

I had a similar issue when moving house two years ago and eventually after considering a shed we decided to increase the size of the extension were were planning to build

 

I tried building a layout in my two previous houses, without any luck. They are either too cold or too hot, damp in the winter and quite inaccessible in most cases unless you have a proper loft conversion built. These log cabins are very nice but very expensive.

 

Our first plan was to buy a decent bespoke shed, ensure a decent door and set of windows were installed then insulate the room properly and have power installed. In our Village we have these shed manufacturers, who can build to both size (1 foot increments) specification required, plus if required fit decent door and windows and insulate (I was going to do this my self) it

 

I inherited one of their garden sheds when we moved, which is quite old and after a quick refurbishment surprisingly good condition, here is their website

https://www.poultons.co.uk/products

 

I am certain there are other companies like these, who make good bespoke products. Cannot really remember too much about what I was going to order, think in the order of 15' x 7' and for a shed I think the basic with a decent door and windows somewhere between £2 to £3k, then a few hundred in materials to insulate. As it happens we worked out that for a similar cost we could enlarge the extension by the same size and have an extra room in the house. We had the space to do this as the shed was going to be down the side of the house anyway and will save £'s on energy costs and increased the house's value too boot

 

I have a friend who built his own, bottom half with concrete blocks, top half studding and cladding. Just as already suggested think of all your options, also perhaps amend your modelling requirements. If you have not already join a club, that will give you access to larger layouts and just build something smaller, but perhaps better quality at home

[jamespetts]

Splendid, thank you for all your help: that is most useful. Pictures would indeed be appreciated. Pheaton, can I ask: in having the electricity installed, did the electricians have to cut into the wall or run surface wires from the consumer unit in the house?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A detail to keep in mind, the door position. Obviously the layout design significantly influences where it may best go. The freedom to choose the location of the door varies; best to know where it would ideally be placed when evaluating sheds for suitability. Similarly, window positions; a north light is very good.

[Pannier Tank]

This is my Self Build "Manshed" http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65898-insulated-lean-to-extension-what-to-expect/page-2&do=findComment&comment=890468

[pheaton]

Splendid, thank you for all your help: that is most useful. Pictures would indeed be appreciated. Pheaton, can I ask: in having the electricity installed, did the electricians have to cut into the wall or run surface wires from the consumer unit in the house?

I installed the electrics, i didn't come from the consumer unit (which is by far the better option, because the consumer unit is on the other side of the house and that would have been a lot of drilling and cable running, for sake of ambiguity its always better to come off the consumer unit rather than what i have done... ) i created a fused spur from an existing socket (which is acceptable) but you are limited to 13 amps i then installed a power breaker next to the socket and then drilled through the back wall of the house and ran an armoured cable buried in the ground to a consumer unit in the cabin (which gives protection for the cabin based electricals) (the cable must be armoured because then if it is broken by an errant spade or something there will be a leakage to the armour which you can then earth via the house installed power breaker and this will trip accordingly. Its also good practice to ensure that the socket you have come off isn't a commonly used socket or you can blank the socket off.....so you don't risk overloading the ring main.

 

However i should also point out that this is (in the house) a modern electrical installation, reason being in a modern installation each ring main is separate and has its own breaker, and that way you don't risk overloading a ring main. id be very wary about doing this on a house that hasn't been rewired or doesn't have a consumer unit so an electrician can recommend the best option for you. Remember if you do it yourself you really must get it signed off for your safety and piece of mind

 

Disclaimer applies....if your not sure what to do pay someone to do it for you You cant play with your train-set if your dead

Edited February 12, 2018 by pheaton

[brianusa]

From the picture it would appear these are small houses with small gardens which means you are not far from your neighbours.  Are there any other sheds around and what would be the reaction of your closest neighbour?

 

Brian.

[big jim]

My shed is a custom built 12x6 building with minimal glazing for security etc, see the thread below for a footing up build, the building cost me £550 iirc including them erecting it, took them all of 30 mins including getting it off the van!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69543-big-jims-roundy-roundy-shed-layout-trains-running-again/?fromsearch=1

 

As it happens I’ve just decided in the last 2 weeks to move into the garage and start afresh with a new layout, and as the building is now going to be a ‘habitable room’ I have all the joys of building regs to work to as I will be having a new roof and bi fold doors fitted as well as lining out and plasterboarding etc

 

Regards the shed, you can see it was started in November 2013 when I lined it out and insulated it all round, the only maintainance I’ve really had to do was nail down the roof felt when it ripped but at the same time I fitted corolux bitumen sheets over the top too to futher protect the wood

 

Electricity was fitted last year (also to the garage), running from a secondary consumer unit in the garage, drilled through the wall and sealed with expanding foam

 

Hope my thread is if some help to you

[chriswright03]

Some good advice given and it looks like your estimate for a shed was way off!  One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is make sure that you actually want to build a layout.  Many on here want to but never get around to it.  Many more (me included) start one and give up or change direction, lose interest or find it all too difficult.

 

You maybe need to decide what you would like and decide if you have the ability and funds to achieve that before you actually get a shed.

 

Not wanting to sound negative or put you off but I know from personal experience what we want now can soon change.  Whatever you decide I wish you look.

[jamespetts]

Thank you all very much for your help: that is most useful.

 

I am currently considering a slightly larger outbuilding (still within the limit of what does not require planning permission) running along the right hand flank of the garden, measuring perhaps about 3m x 7m externally, with the long dimension along the length of the garden. This would give me a good length for a layout (long and thin being more useful for model railways than square, real railways also being long and thin), and would have the added benefit that there would be no need for me to move the washing line or remove the lovely mature tree at the end of the garden, and I should retain the full length (albeit not the full width) of the garden available as an outside space. If I then had the door in the short side facing the house, this should enable a good sized layout to run in a C shape around the other walls of the room, as well as enabling the easiest access from the house/conservatory.

 

A 7x3m size amounts to 21 sq.m., which is in the 15-30 sq. m. bracket for building regulations, meaning that it either needs to comply with building regulations (which apparently are mainly concerned with fireproofing in this context), or be built from a non-combustible material. The research that I have done so far suggests that the prefabricated "log cabin" buildings are not really suitable for this purpose. That leaves either concrete sheds which are by their nature non-combustible (not ideal in appearance, but can be dressed up to look respectable; but I cannot find any of a good size) or the more expensive building regulation compliant garden rooms. Has anyone here any experience of either type of shed/room?

 

As for electricity, I note that it is preferable to have a line taken directly from the consumer unit. I recall that the electrician who rewired the house in 2015 mentioned something about putting in provision for better wiring in the kitchen, which is at the back of the house, when I come to refurbish that, but I cannot recall the details now. I am not sure whether that might help - but I am very, very, very keen indeed not to have to have any cutting into walls in the main house, or any sort of surface wiring (except in the kitchen and conservatory), as I had the main rooms (including the hallway where the meter/consumer unit are located) meticulously redecorated in period style in 2015, and the colour of paint used on the Lincrusta panels in the hallway had just been discontinued when the decoration was done (the decorator being able to find some new old stock), so there is no way of redecorating it to the same specification again.

 

In relation to whether I am sure that I actually want a layout - I do not think that anyone can eliminate all doubt about one's future state of mind. I know that I am quite keen on having one now. However, I rather like the idea of a garden hobby room aside from the layout plans in any event: it had never really occurred to me before looking into this that I could have in effect a large additional room on my property for a relatively modest price that does not interfere in any way with the structure or decoration of the existing house. I barely use the garden (really, only for the washing line), and think that a room of this nature would be, for me, a far better use of the space than having lots of garden. It also has the potential to add value to the property (probably doubly so if it is a building regulations compliant structure that could be used as sleeping accommodation, subject to planning permission). There is another hobby related thing for which such a building would be likely to be useful: I have in my loft an old Stuart stationary steam engine and boiler plant that I bought/put together with my father back in 2007/8 and which I have not run since circa 2008 which I should like to get going again, but it is too awkward to get it from the loft and there is nowhere other than the loft at present to store it.

 

As to what the neighbours might think/say, I suspect not a great deal: I live in an area that, at present, is largely inhabited by tenants on short lets. I suspect that the area may very slowly be improving (a run-down pub' not far from my house has recently been converted into a trendy hipster pizza bar), but it may well take 5-10 years for this to take effect fully, by which time my planned garden room will have become a long-standing fixture and the people who remember what it was like before it was installed long gone.

 

In any event, thank you all again for your help - it is much appreciated. If any of you can comment on the electrical/decorative issue, or have experience with concrete and/or building regulations compliant outbuildings, I should be very grateful for feedback/insights.

Edited February 12, 2018 by jamespetts

[Finsbury]

Hello James. This may sound odd, but have you considered what you want, and then going with that? For the sort of numbers being bandied about, I would be throwing that right into an extension.

 

Cash tight because many, many mortgage? Maybe practicing laying track, modelling, whatever. How's that BLT idea coming along? Many ways to skin a railway cat. We don't do that to cats, btw, that is for another modelrailway 'forum'. We would give them a uniform. Or a hat. More practically, somewhere comfy to sit where their fur is far away from gearboxes and stuff.

 

They way things are going, 'Our Glorious Leader' will nick your garden and build a flammable multi-occupancy 'dwelling' anyway. And then up your CT with reduced bin collection/dibble/useful things.

 

OT your shed will be worthless in a land valuable area, when it comes to selling time.

 

Kindest regards, from someone who had big ideas in London and now cannot wait to sell up and b#%%{r off.

 

Bernie

 

ps nice garden, btw. It looks like a pleasant place to be in the big smoke.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Finsbury

[jamespetts]

Thank you for your thoughts. I should prefer to have an independent garden building than an extension because I like to keep my house in as close to original period condition as possible, so a completely separate building in the garden adds additional space without interfering with the house itself in any way.

[Finsbury]

That is a refreshing ideal, James. I am sure I am not alone in wishing you all the best.

[LBRJ]

Thank you for your thoughts. I should prefer to have an independent garden building than an extension because I like to keep my house in as close to original period condition as possible, so a completely separate building in the garden adds additional space without interfering with the house itself in any way.

 

A well made outbuilding will add to the desirability if not the value of a house - It is something "beyond" - that home office or kids play room, or even just a shed, whereas an extension is just a little bit more house...and £3-4K in London may just get you the footings dug out for a porch

[Finsbury]

A WELL MADE outbuilding will add to the desirability if not the value of a house - It is something "beyond" - that home office or kids play room, or even just a shed, whereas an extension is just a little bit more house...and £3-4K in London may just get you the footings dug out for a porch

My capitals. Indeed. How long before children(?) mean an outgrown abode, though? A new shed is one thing, a fifteen yr old potting shed is another! A moment of jest, forgive me. James, I am sure your construct will involve the highest of order. Lincrusta? Get you! I settled for mere crust.

 

Bern

[jamespetts]

I have no plans on ever having any children, so that is not an issue that I am likely to encounter.

[Finsbury]

Me too. have a like for helping to control the population boom.

 

edit, It'll save the mancave getting cluttered up with childish things like railwa.... oh.

 

Good luck, feller!

bernie

Edited February 13, 2018 by Finsbury

[spikey]

Cranes.  Nobody seems to have mentioned cranes, and how useful they are for getting stuff into or out of back gardens to which access is restricted.  Relatively cheap too, particularly once you weigh up how much hassle might be avoided.

 

Chap I know's just had a very large hot tub craned over his terraced house onto a lorry, and the total cost including VAT but not the lorry was £480.

Edited February 13, 2018 by spikey

[jamespetts]

Interesting suggestion apropos the crane  - I had not thought of that (and nor have the people whom I have e-mailed from various suppliers of garden rooms).

[LBRJ]

i was going to mention the possibility of crane use but it sounds too close to carnage!!

Having been on sites early on a Sunday morning when pretty large AC units have been craned onto hospital roofs, using up to 70 ton cranes (to get the reach not the weight), it seems a bit of a scary exercise for a train room but I suspect cranes have got "easier" these last twenty years or so.

 

If I was going to the effort of needing to lift something over my, and my neighbours, roof I would seriously consider the use of a small shipping container for my play room!!

Edited February 14, 2018 by LBRJ

[jamespetts]

A shipping container? Goodness, that does not seem like a very inviting prospect.

 

I have written to a number of companies offering various types of buildings, from the more expensive bespoke buildings to the cheaper prefabricated buildings, and all of them seem to have different requirements about whether they need side/rear access and how much space that must be left (for constructional purposes, rather than for planning or building control) around the edge of the building.

 

Many of them seem confused by building regulations issues (confusing them with planing, and in some cases confusing what is required to comply with the regulations with the criteria for exemption from the building regulations), so I have written to the local authority's building control department to request clarification on the issue. It may well be that fire retardant and good insulation are all that is necessary for the building to comply.

 

I have also inspected my electric meter cabinet, and I notice that all of the wires are not chased into the wall, but rather run down inside a hollow edging box next to the front door until they reach the floor, when they are taken under the floorboards, so hopefully it will not be necessary to cut into any of my walls in order to get a supply to the back garden straight from my consumer unit, which I think has some spare circuit breaker slots, if I recall correctly.

[LBRJ]

Shippin container....

 

not so bad a choice to me 

 

https://www.shippingcontainersuk.com/brands/converisons---offices-and-workshops.php

[Bernard Lamb]

A shipping container? Goodness, that does not seem like a very inviting prospect.

 

 

 

Why not?

Take a look at St Katherine's Precinct. Mostly built from containers. Plus a very large tent.

There are several other sites in London of a similar build.

My cycling club recently installed one and it cost around £2k. It makes a very good store room.

I think a house built from containers appeared on Grand Designs not long ago.

They can be fitted out to make excellent accommodation.

There are a couple of houses near me where they have demolished the house in order to build a much larger property. The people are currently living in caravans with large containers in the garden to store their furniture and other items.

As others have mentioned a crane will be needed for access if it, or any thing else of any size, has to go in the back garden.

The only problem with a crane is waiting for the wind to drop. I had that problem when I had the loft converted and had to install a couple of 5m plus steels.

Bernard

[Clearwater]

I’ve seen these people. https://www.pentalver.com/container-sales/container-conversions At trade shows. Some very creative conversions. No connection etc

 

I had also thought they’d make excellent model rooms. Of course, rather than taking the layout out to a show, you could take the whole container - would be different!

[yelrow]

I have had 6 railway layouts in lofts, without any probs. Council, either want new joists, the other way, fixed to walls , or new ones screwed/ glued to existing, wall supported.. Thats it. Aluminium loft ladder. I have never been inspected, just photographed my joists. Brighton, southampton, weymouth, kidderminster,  stranraer. For occasional, hobby use, must be cheaper than shed, and all that goes with it. john

[chris p bacon]

I have had 6 railway layouts in lofts, without any probs. Council, either want new joists, the other way, fixed to walls , or new ones screwed/ glued to existing, wall supported.. Thats it. Aluminium loft ladder. I have never been inspected, just photographed my joists. Brighton, southampton, weymouth, kidderminster,  stranraer. For occasional, hobby use, must be cheaper than shed, and all that goes with it. john

 

 

Breathes deeply.............nope not going to get lured in again....

 

Shakes head and walks away......