Fitting out The Shed [Was: Unconverted loft? Expensive shed?]

[big jim]

Ref my garage conversion the building inspector is around tomorrow for the initial inspection of the garage and advice so hopefully I’ll know what I need to be looking for insulation wise etc and get things kicked off

[Andrew P]

My Shed is 18ft x 9 ft fully insulated including the Roof Void with Loft insulation, and the floor is 12mm Ply then 50mm Polystyrene, then another sheet of 12mm Ply then Halfords interlocking rubber floor mats, it was warm in there, even today. there are some pics of the Build on my Bitton thread.

 

The Base goes in.

 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88984-bitton/page-32

 

The Build starts here.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88984-bitton/page-48

Edited February 27, 2018 by Andrew P

[hayfield]

Ref my garage conversion the building inspector is around tomorrow for the initial inspection of the garage and advice so hopefully I’ll know what I need to be looking for insulation wise etc and get things kicked off

My nephew is converting his garage (Part playroom/part kitchen extension) we dropped in on Saturday to deliver his birthday present and chatted about what he is doing. As I had converted my previous garage in our old house, and have had an extension built at our new property. He is quite lucky as the garage wall is a cavity wall supporting a 1st floor extension, he just has to build a new front wall to replace the door and install a new flooring. He was thinking about a wooden suspended floor until I suggested using Celotex panels and screeding over as both cheaper and more thermal efficient,

 

Insulation and heating is one area I would advise on not scrimping on, which is what I did on my first house. In my case I knew we were not staying so was a temporary feature, had I been staying I would have done things a little differently. Don't forget if done properly it will increase the value and or the desirability of the property.

[teaky]

My nephew is converting his garage (Part playroom/part kitchen extension) we dropped in on Saturday to deliver his birthday present and chatted about what he is doing. As I had converted my previous garage in our old house, and have had an extension built at our new property. He is quite lucky as the garage wall is a cavity wall supporting a 1st floor extension, he just has to build a new front wall to replace the door and install a new flooring. He was thinking about a wooden suspended floor until I suggested using Celotex panels and screeding over as both cheaper and more thermal efficient,

 

Insulation and heating is one area I would advise on not scrimping on, which is what I did on my first house. In my case I knew we were not staying so was a temporary feature, had I been staying I would have done things a little differently. Don't forget if done properly it will increase the value and or the desirability of the property.

Just to throw a further option into the mix.

 

You could simply put down interspersed timbers and PIR (e.g. Celotex) then fix (screw & glue) flooring grade chipboard panels at right angles to the timbers.  It isn't quite a suspended floor as the timbers and PIR just sit on the existing concrete floor of the garage.  The only fiddly bit is that the garage floor will have been laid on a slight slope so a few simple spacers will be required under the timbers to bring everything level.  The whole thing sits on a damp proof membrane (1200 gauge) which is carried up the walls beyond the damp proof course.

 

I did this about 5 years ago and it hasn't budged and complies with Building Regulations (it was the BCO who suggested it to me).  I used 100mm x 45mm treated timber and 100mm PIR.  Rather than fix the timbers at 600mm centres, I opted for 645mm centres because this meant the PIR could be cut down the centre and there was virtually no waste.  You can get away with this because the whole thing is sitting on the floor so it isn't like you are concerned about spans.  Laying is simple: timber, PIR, timber, PIR etc. until you reach the other side of the room.

[hayfield]

My nephew will be laying an electric underfloor central heating system, certainly in the kitchen part, as no wall space for radiators. Whilst Celotex is expensive it is widely used in all new builds. Saves both the cost of the joists and their installation, especially as the floor needs screeding.

 

So on a cost basis a cheaper method, plus in my house many years ago (like all the other similar houses in the area) in the old floors thinner joists were used with a concrete infill, which has caused a couple of damp issues in the house which I had to resolve. I also get the impression that its thermal qualities are better ?

[teaky]

Sorry John, I should pay more attention.  You did mention "kitchen" in your post, so it was obvious tiles would probably be involved which suggests screed even without underfloor heating.  So my suggestion isn't worth considering in your nephew's situation.  However, it may be something for Big Jim to think about (which, ironically, is what prompted my post in the first place).  I don't think the damp should come into the equation if there is a proper DPM.

[big jim]

The building bloke has been to see me, apparently the building doesn’t come under part P or something so doesn’t need thick floor insulation/wooden joists so I’m going to wood laminate it with appropriate insulation under that, (there is a damp course membrane)

 

Wall wise I’ve been told 75mm thick insulation between 4x2 battoning set to 400mm apart to bring the insulation flush with the 2 brick pillars in the shed, (25mm gap between the insulation and the wall) as breathing space then another 25mm sheet across the front of the 75mm sheet running over the front of the pillar and plasterboard on top of that

 

For the roof 7x2 beams on the new roof, again set at 400mm apart, 100mm insulation between those then 25mm across the bottom (below the Battons) and plasterboard over that

 

No lintle needed above the bi fold doors but fill the void between the top of them and the roof with upvc panel, insulated inside and plaster boarded inside

[hayfield]

Big Jim

 

Might still be worth thinking of a thick insulated layer on the floor, especially as you seem to be going full blast with the walls and ceiling. Good luck with the project 

[big jim]

Yeah, I think once I’m in a roll with it I may well just go the whole hog, even if it’s just 25mm thick Celotex stuff under ‘attic boards’ or something similar

[teaky]

For the floor I'd encourage you to put more than 25mm insulation in Jim.  Perhaps opt for 75mm so you are using the same material as the walls.

 

Also, when you say 'attic boards' I hope you don't mean the packs of loft panels sold in DIY sheds.  You'll get a much better floor if you use proper floor panels of moisture resistant chipboard (2.4 x 0.6m).  The loft panels aren't up to the job.

 

The rest of the construction is very similar to what I did.  Almost all my guidance came from the BCI at the time.  The only difference is that I have a bigger cavity between the insulation and the walls but that is mainly down to me ripping down some treated timber I already had in stock in order to re-use it for battens.

 

I hope you're going to be posting some pictures as you progress.

[big jim]

The floor will be a long way off to be honest, I think I’ll see how I get on with the rest of the job first then play it by ear as the time gets closer

 

I’m talking months away before I get anywhere near starting the bits I can do myself

[teaky]

Only months?!  It's never too soon to start a thread.  I've been boring people with photos of timber and insulation for half a year now. 

 

On a serious note.  You're about to do a proper garage conversion and I for one think it is useful for people to be able to see what's involved and that it isn't that difficult to do things the right way.  It doesn't stop people doing a botch job but at least they will be able to make an informed decision before taking that risk.

[big jim]

I’m going to start a new thread when I actually start the job proper, and also shut down my existing layout thread as that will be dismantled when the conversion starts as I need to put things like bikes in the current layout shed!

[tomparryharry]

Breathes deeply.............nope not going to get lured in again....

 

Shakes head and walks away......

Dear Dave. I'm building my 4th storey extension out over the front of the house. Despite the height, it's quite safe, as I've got it balanced on the streetlamp outside. My question is this:- When I screw the structural batten to next door's party wall, can I use yellow rawlpugs?

 

Our top floor weaves about a bit, but the lady next door is overweight. I've suggested for her to attend slimmers world, but she hasn't spoken to me lately. Our electrician is pretty good, and installed a 5mm bolt instead of the fuse. Now we can cook toast on the fuseboard any time we like.

 

Can I use panel pins to hold up the plasterboard ceiling?

 

Cheers,

 

L. Lasto-Plast.

Edited February 27, 2018 by tomparryharry

[hayfield]

The floor will be a long way off to be honest, I think I’ll see how I get on with the rest of the job first then play it by ear as the time gets closer

 

I’m talking months away before I get anywhere near starting the bits I can do myself

 

Big Jim

 

Follow Teakey's advice, nothing worse that cold feet, so stop the cold from coming in

[Londoner]

Hi,

 

A couple of points occurred to me since my first post. Firstly, headroom may be an issue when you choose a shed. I'm 6'1" and most of the sheds I looked at had cross members at about 6'. A workshop has a much higher roof structure, as well as being more secure.

 

Celotex/Kingspan is an excellent insulator, and lining with it is well worth while, (don't forget to seal between the Celotex panels with expanded polystyrene). However, as I mentioned previously, ants love it. When I erected the shed, I was very careful to make sure I sealed all the wooden panel joints and any knot holes with silicon sealant.  I did this as a general idea to stop insects getting in, but they still did. The reason I mention it, is that the PIR creates a perfect environment for the ants to construct their nests. It's dry, warm and easily mined.

 

During the first winter, I noticed that very small debris were regularly appearing on the baseboard. To cut a long story short, I eventually realised they were falling from the roof through what appeared to be pin holes. When I removed the aluminium sheet foil covering the section, I found it honeycombed with tunnels and chambers, and hundreds of ants. It was really difficult to get rid of them with insect killer and I really don't how far they've gone under the other panels. (I've added some pics of the damage). I still haven't repaired the damage, including repainting the areas where I removed the aluminium covering.

 

The ultrasonic repellers are a real good investment.

 

Good Luck with the sheds,

 

Eric.

 

 

[hayfield]

IMG_2393.JPGIMG_2393.JPGIMG_2392.JPGIMG_2391.JPGIMG_2390.JPGHi,

 

A couple of points occurred to me since my first post. Firstly, headroom may be an issue when you choose a shed. I'm 6'1" and most of the sheds I looked at had cross members at about 6'. A workshop has a much higher roof structure, as well as being more secure.

 

Celotex/Kingspan is an excellent insulator, and lining with it is well worth while, (don't forget to seal between the Celotex panels with expanded polystyrene). However, as I mentioned previously, ants love it. When I erected the shed, I was very careful to make sure I sealed all the wooden panel joints and any knot holes with silicon sealant.  I did this as a general idea to stop insects getting in, but they still did. The reason I mention it, is that the PIR creates a perfect environment for the ants to construct their nests. It's dry, warm and easily mined.

 

During the first winter, I noticed that very small debris were regularly appearing on the baseboard. To cut a long story short, I eventually realised they were falling from the roof through what appeared to be pin holes. When I removed the aluminium sheet foil covering the section, I found it honeycombed with tunnels and chambers, and hundreds of ants. It was really difficult to get rid of them with insect killer and I really don't how far they've gone under the other panels. (I've added some pics of the damage). I still haven't repaired the damage, including repainting the areas where I removed the aluminium covering.

 

The ultrasonic repellers are a real good investment.

 

Good Luck with the sheds,

 

Eric.

 

Coffee grouts seem to ward off ants, though no idea how you could protect the roof. We had an ant hill in the garden which just grew larger and larger, after coating the ant hill with grouts they moved away

[relaxinghobby]

Yes I can confirm the effectiveness of used coffee grounds. The ants were comming up in my bathroom concrete floor where the water main rises behind panelling and using the space to incubate their eggs.  A few days worth of dried coffee grounds sprinkled in there and they moved out.

[jamespetts]

Returning to this topic for a moment - I have recently been in correspondence with the shed people, who have in turn been in correspondence with the local building control officer. The shed people tell me that they will need to clad the shed in cement composite rather than wood boards to comply with the relevant parts of the Building Regulations (or, perhaps, in order to be exempt, on the basis that the cement composite is non-flammable); the representative of the shed people asked my views on the idea of using cement composite instead of wood. My reply was that I would not object on principle to having a material other than wood, but would need to know more about the properties of the cement composite before making a final decision, and I asked about its appearance, durability, longevity, maintenance, insulative properties and thickness. I have yet to have a reply to this, albeit my e-mail was only sent on Thursday.

 

In the meantime, I have managed to do a little preliminary research on cement composite cladding, which, from what I have seen so far, seems positive. If it is the same fibrous cement composite panelling (which can apparently be made into weatherboard planks of the same shape and size as wood and used as a direct substitute for wood), what I have seen suggests that it has better insulative properties than wood and is lower maintenance, as well, of course, as being non-flammable. The appearance may not be quite the same as wood, lacking grain unless this be added artificially, but I do not think that this would be too concerning for me.

 

Does anyone have any experience with outbuildings (or any structure) made from or clad in cement composite weatherboards?

[Andymsa]

Hi,

 

After many false starts in building a layout it was ether move or build something, as I was never happy with what I wanted to achieve. I say something as its a bit more than an average shed. The first building was styled on the face towards the house in log lap to give a cabin effect, the other three sides were faced with metal cladding like you get on industrial units. The walls are insulated and plasterboard inside, I even have coving and is artexed. There is full double glazing .After 10 years I decided to extend it so I now have an L shaped building. Also when I extended I took the opportunity to install air conditioning. The size of the original building was 30 x 13 feet but now with the new addition is 30 x 13 and 20 x 9 feet. So Layout length is around 60 feet and is L shaped. Security is also covered by alarms that sends info to my phone and cctv that also sends alerts. This was all built by myself from scratch and not kit built and the original cost was around £10000 and the new extension was about about the same. Yes air conditioning is a bit of a luxury but is very cost effective and saves buckled track. Obviously it complys with building regs and the extension has planning consent the original didn't as it was permitted development. It wasn't that difficult to build and after I built the first I said never again but hey what did I do but build an extension guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I did look originally at kits and shed suppliers but felt they were overpriced as the same spec built for just the shell was around the same £10000 it cost to build the original and I get far more by doing it myself

 

Some reason photo rotated

 

Andy

Edited April 8, 2018 by Andymsa

[jamespetts]

That sounds like an impressive shed. I am also thinking of having air conditioning installed.

[Richard_A]

Check out the marley cederal range of boards, they're a pretty good looking range of cement board, wood effect cladding.

[Andymsa]

That sounds like an impressive shed. I am also thinking of having air conditioning installed.

It's not cheap but I did go with a decent system, and it has to be fitted by a certified installer due to the regs. I wouldn't even attempt it anyway. Last summer when it was really hot I was very thankful of it.

 

To call it a shed, which I do to be honest is an understatement lol

 

Andy

Edited April 8, 2018 by Andymsa

[hayfield]

Returning to this topic for a moment - I have recently been in correspondence with the shed people, who have in turn been in correspondence with the local building control officer. The shed people tell me that they will need to clad the shed in cement composite rather than wood boards to comply with the relevant parts of the Building Regulations (or, perhaps, in order to be exempt, on the basis that the cement composite is non-flammable); the representative of the shed people asked my views on the idea of using cement composite instead of wood. My reply was that I would not object on principle to having a material other than wood, but would need to know more about the properties of the cement composite before making a final decision, and I asked about its appearance, durability, longevity, maintenance, insulative properties and thickness. I have yet to have a reply to this, albeit my e-mail was only sent on Thursday.

 

In the meantime, I have managed to do a little preliminary research on cement composite cladding, which, from what I have seen so far, seems positive. If it is the same fibrous cement composite panelling (which can apparently be made into weatherboard planks of the same shape and size as wood and used as a direct substitute for wood), what I have seen suggests that it has better insulative properties than wood and is lower maintenance, as well, of course, as being non-flammable. The appearance may not be quite the same as wood, lacking grain unless this be added artificially, but I do not think that this would be too concerning for me.

 

Does anyone have any experience with outbuildings (or any structure) made from or clad in cement composite weatherboards?

 

 

Might be worth getting a quote from a local builder making one out of cement blocks, I think I said earlier in the end instead of buying a shed as we were going to have an extension built we incorporated it into the scheme. Also I have a friend who built a shed himself using concrete blocks for the lower part of the walls

[Buhar]

Do you know exactly why BC have a problem with a conventional wood outbuilding? Is it perhaps proximity to the house?