Sludge and it's origins.

[LNERGE]

Finding a Triang 4F tender in the bits box about the same time as i was building a water tower gave me the idea to make a sludge tender. The water tower is a bit odd as it has a track underneath it with deliberate restricted clearances. On my railway the sludge tender has survived because it is acting as an extension of the bufferstop inside to stop full sized stuff going inside. 

 

 

It is not intended to be an accurate model, especially as it's mostly hidden, more like rough representation of the odd ball thing's that could still be seen in the early 80's. Something different to be seen at the lineside.

 

The water tank destined for Summit Junction..

 

 

The next problem is if i have a water tank and a sludge tender i will need to represent a small water softening plant or it's remains. How small could a water softening plant be? I remember the tank at Hitchin but was the whole operation contained within the tank or were there unique buildings associated with such equipment? There is a drawing of the King's Cross shed water softener in the GN Engine Sheds book but is not detailed enough to read the notes etc. Does anyone know of a more detailed drawing?

 

Would there have been more than one water tower? Hitchin still has a header tank with pipework remains inside. Was this the hard water tank and the water columns fed directly from the water softening plant or would there have been a soft water tank too? Did it work the other way round with water extracted from the bolehole and pumped directly through the water softener and the still extant tank at Hitchin was in fact the soft water header tank?

 

How common were water softening plants at non loco shed locations?. There was one for sure at Langley troughs and i'm fairly sure there was one at Bawtry. Were any provided that only supplied water columns at intermediate stations? I know from the section appendix that trains could take water at Biggleswade (Note to train crews to watch out for stationary trains on the permissive goods line when the boxes were switched out) but where did the water come from? I'm certain i've not seen a water softening plant there?

 

I know what they did with the sludge and mention of it can still be found in environment statements at certain locations. How much sludge did the various water softening plants produce? How frequent were sludge tenders taken away to be emptied? Were they taken and returned or swapped? How many sludge tenders were there?

 

Here are the the pictures i have found on Flickr..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/galleries/72157694558614705/?rb=1

Edited March 18, 2018 by LNERGE

[uax6]

In one of the three volumes of LMS Miscellany there are a couple of pages on water treatment, and general over view pictures of a plant at a set of troughs. I'll dig the volume out and scan the pages for you.

 

Andy g

[Ian Smeeton]

Can't add much except this....

 

 

Longsight, Manchester 1981

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Steamport Southport]

Wasn't that the tender that ended up behind the Crab (42765)?

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Ian Smeeton]

Wasn't that the tender that ended up behind the Crab (42765)?

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not while I was there.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Marshall5]

Wasn't that the tender that ended up behind the Crab (42765)?

 

 

 

 

Jason

Don't think so. IIRC the one that two members of Steamport bought (and was later resold to 42765's owner - Andy Wilson?) came from Carlisle and that was before 1981,  The tender definitely had 42756 stencilled on the frames when it arrived.

Ray.

[uax6]

Humph, dug the volume out as bed time reading last night, and actually its not as I remember it. Theres next to nothing on water treatment at all, except to explain why it was needed (It was calculated to save over 70,000 tons of coal a year!) and was followed by several pages of water troughs and only one picture of the plant, which was focused on the large storage pond (incoming water?) and then there was a large brick building and a huge cylindrical storage tank, standing on end. This was for a set of troughs though.

 

I'll have to see if there is any pictures in the 'Diesel Depots the early days', but I'm not sure I'd know what I'm looking for in the pictures!

 

Andy G

[Nearholmer]

Treatment plants could be small. In Ireland, I saw the intact remains of one that dealt with water for the three small3ft gauge steamers used by Bord na Mona (the peat authority) and that was decidedly small. But, the size of the plant must be matched to the volume of water being consumed, hence huge thing at Castlethorpe troughs on the WCML in northants.

 

So, how much water are you going to be using?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Nearholmer

[LNERGE]

So, how much water are you going to be using?

I'm on the scent of a plant that supplied water to just a few columns at Biggleswade. There was no loco depot just the columns at platform ends. So far i have a scetchy memory of a tall round tank at this location and a poor photo that seems to confirm this but it could be in the grounds of a nearby factory. Aerofilms has something that shows inconclusive evidence too. I need a photo looking south east from the south end of the platforms. I'm sure if this turns out to be a water softener it will be about the right size.

 

At this stage the equipment will lie derelict. At some stage in the future i will backdate the layout to the end of steam. Part of the grand scheme will this location at Summit will have a restricted water supply. There will be a system that if the water column is not stowed the gauge on the tank will fall and will, once the column is correctly stowed, rise at an inordinately slow rate just to add a bit of fun. I have a water tank indicator (12 inch to the foot scale) that i want to make work. If low water is indicated in the signalbox in rear the signalman there would advise control and arrange for freights to by dyked earlier to get water at an unrestricted source, possibly off scene, or i'll end up having to build a big plant and storage.

Edited March 19, 2018 by LNERGE

[DaveF]

In "The Worlds Railways and How They Work", pub 1947, on Page 83 there is a cut away drawing of the water softening plant to supply water troughs.  

 

LNERGE - I've sent you a PM about it.

 

As an aside the book has a lot of useful cut away drawings of locos, infrastructure etc.  They are not all accurate but I often find them useful.

 

It's not an uncommon book, I think mine cost about £1 in a charity shop.

 

David

[LNERGE]

The drawing in that book looks very much like the Castlethorpe tower. It has helped a lot understanding how the KX type tower worked. Many thanks.

[Steamport Southport]

Don't think so. IIRC the one that two members of Steamport bought (and was later resold to 42765's owner - Andy Wilson?) came from Carlisle and that was before 1981,  The tender definitely had 42756 stencilled on the frames when it arrived.

Ray.

 

Thanks Ray.

 

I knew that 42765 doesn't have the tender which was with it in Barry (which is now apparently with the Patriot people and being scrapped for parts) and I had vague recollections that the current one came from BR Departmental service.

 

I wonder whether the Longsight one survived. I've just had a look on the VCT website and a few of the entries are a bit vague.

 

 

 

Jason

[billy_anorak59]

FWIW: There was a softening plant at Offord and Buckden on the ECML - and I've seen pictures of sludge tenders here in a 'Bylines' a couple of years ago.

No depot there either, but may match the Biggleswade version you're seeking?

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by billy_anorak59

[LNERGE]

FWIW: There was a softening plant at Offord and Buckden on the ECML - and I've seen pictures of sludge tenders here in a 'Bylines' a couple of years ago.

No depot there either, but may match the Biggleswade version you're seeking?

 

offord.jpg

That is quite a lot bigger than i expected for a non loco shed location. Many thanks.

[LNERGE]

The Offord photo has started a flurry of activity here. A quick look next door at Huntingdon shows no water softener but a large water tank and chimney. It could have been that there was a steam engine to pump water from a borehole but surely that wound be hard water? There are some good pictures about of the Huntingdon water tank and at least one is captioned as to it being empty. The gauge pointer is at the bottom of the scale in all the pictures i've seen. I'm sure this means it was full?

 

Anyway.. Is it possible the larger than expected plant at Offord supplied Huntingdon also? How big would such a pipe be? I know the LNER laid pipelines as the water for March shed came from Marham, a natural supply of soft water. In the latter case we are looking at over 25 miles.

 

Could a question i've had since childhood about to be answered? There are two side by side bridges over the River Great Ouse south of Huntingdon. The up structure carries a pipeline on the east side. I've always wondered what it was. There are no markers nearby to give a hint. (The fuel pipeline is further to the west and is well marked) Could this be an Offord - Huntingdon railway owned water pipeline? (Three or four miles tops)

[Free At Last]

Interesting article on water softening...  http://www.lmssociety.org.uk/monologues/M13.pdf

[Southernman46]

BR had these too .....................

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsludge

 

I believe this particular wagon 998101 spent a considerable period of time parked at the end of the Chatham Dockyard branch siding at Gillingham in the early 70's before ending up at Sheerness for scrap.

 

Part way through a scratch-build - isn't "plastruc" great stuff !

Edited March 27, 2018 by Southernman46

[billy_anorak59]

The Offord photo has started a flurry of activity here. A quick look next door at Huntingdon shows no water softener but a large water tank and chimney. It could have been that there was a steam engine to pump water from a borehole but surely that wound be hard water? There are some good pictures about of the Huntingdon water tank and at least one is captioned as to it being empty. The gauge pointer is at the bottom of the scale in all the pictures i've seen. I'm sure this means it was full?

 

Anyway.. Is it possible the larger than expected plant at Offord supplied Huntingdon also? How big would such a pipe be? I know the LNER laid pipelines as the water for March shed came from Marham, a natural supply of soft water. In the latter case we are looking at over 25 miles.

 

Could a question i've had since childhood about to be answered? There are two side by side bridges over the River Great Ouse south of Huntingdon. The up structure carries a pipeline on the east side. I've always wondered what it was. There are no markers nearby to give a hint. (The fuel pipeline is further to the west and is well marked) Could this be an Offord - Huntingdon railway owned water pipeline? (Three or four miles tops)

 

LNERGE – I’m very glad the Offord photo was of interest – I can’t help regarding the pipe I’m afraid (although I’ve seen photographs showing it). Your thoughts regarding it supplying Huntingdon would see pretty plausible to me – perhaps it was easier to abstract the water from the very high river-affected water-table around Offord whilst having easy access to a mainline connected siding, rather than at Huntingdon Station, which is not half as close to the Ouse?

 

Going back to the softening plant itself, the thought struck me that if you have enrolled to the ‘Britain From Above’ website (which enables ‘zoom’ function once logged in), there is another, and a pretty good aerial view at that, of the plant at Offord and Buckden. Of course, there’s a little bit of fuzziness, but once zoomed in, a row of at least 4 sludge tenders can be seen in front of the plant, and ‘L   N   E   R’ can be made out on two of them (Photo is dated 1953).

 

If you wanted to take a look, the BFA Reference number is EAW050899 – obviously, I don’t want to infringe copyright by posting any grabs (that I may or may not have) here, but hope it’s of further use.

 

Link:

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW050899

Edited March 27, 2018 by billy_anorak59

[LNERGE]

Interesting article on water softening...  http://www.lmssociety.org.uk/monologues/M13.pdf

Many thanks for this. Water columns of different colours? Never seen that on a layout. All very interesting. Water recovery at troughs. I'd never considered it and now find myself looking again at Eastern Region troughs to see if it can be identified.

[LNERGE]

LNERGE – I’m very glad the Offord photo was of interest – I can’t help regarding the pipe I’m afraid (although I’ve seen photographs showing it). Your thoughts regarding it supplying Huntingdon would see pretty plausible to me – perhaps it was easier to abstract the water from the very high river-affected water-table around Offord whilst having easy access to a mainline connected siding, rather than at Huntingdon Station, which is not half as close to the Ouse?

 

Going back to the softening plant itself, the thought struck me that if you have enrolled to the ‘Britain From Above’ website (which enables ‘zoom’ function once logged in), there is another, and a pretty good aerial view at that, of the plant at Offord and Buckden. Of course, there’s a little bit of fuzziness, but once zoomed in, a row of at least 4 sludge tenders can be seen in front of the plant, and ‘L   N   E   R’ can be made out on two of them (Photo is dated 1953).

 

If you wanted to take a look, the BFA Reference number is EAW050899 – obviously, I don’t want to infringe copyright by posting any grabs (that I may or may not have) here, but hope it’s of further use.

 

Link:

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW050899

The more i look at the Offord plant the more i think it is far too big for the two water columns located there. The Ouse is in several channels around Huntingdon. One passes quite close to the station. I'm sure if water was extracted at Huntingdon it would be the same as the water at Offord. Offord is around 38 feet above sea level and Huntingdon around 50. There is a hill between the two at 68 feet. My pipeline idea would need pumps etc and it all seems to be the wrong way round.

[PaulG]

This is the sludge tender used at Colchester. I'm guessing this is a GCR tender so would a Bachmann O4 loco tender be suitable for conversion or are the basic dimensions wrong?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Trog]

Castlethorpe Troughs were supplied by a pipe running along the up slow cess, from a pumping station under one of the arches of the Ouse Viaduct, there was also a pipe running from the north end of Roade Cutting to Northampton. The grand daddy of them all however was the Colne Valley water main a 12" diameter cast iron pipe (Every pipe having the letters LNWR embossed on it.) mainly running down the 10' from just north of Bushey Arches to Euston, that fed everything between, from steam sheds to stations. It was usually buried a foot or so beneath the track, but came to the surface to cross a couple of shallow bridges.

[stewartingram]

The Offord photo has started a flurry of activity here. A quick look next door at Huntingdon shows no water softener but a large water tank and chimney. It could have been that there was a steam engine to pump water from a borehole but surely that wound be hard water? There are some good pictures about of the Huntingdon water tank and at least one is captioned as to it being empty. The gauge pointer is at the bottom of the scale in all the pictures i've seen. I'm sure this means it was full?

 

Anyway.. Is it possible the larger than expected plant at Offord supplied Huntingdon also? How big would such a pipe be? I know the LNER laid pipelines as the water for March shed came from Marham, a natural supply of soft water. In the latter case we are looking at over 25 miles.

 

Could a question i've had since childhood about to be answered? There are two side by side bridges over the River Great Ouse south of Huntingdon. The up structure carries a pipeline on the east side. I've always wondered what it was. There are no markers nearby to give a hint. (The fuel pipeline is further to the west and is well marked) Could this be an Offord - Huntingdon railway owned water pipeline? (Three or four miles tops)

Cambridge MPD (by the station) was supplied with water pumped from Chesterton Junction (aka Cambridge North today) apparently.

 

Stewart

[65179]

This is the sludge tender used at Colchester. I'm guessing this is a GCR tender so would a Bachmann O4 loco tender be suitable for conversion or are the basic dimensions wrong?

 

Many thanks

Paul

I think it could be one of the earlier Pollitt 4000 gallon tenders rather than a Robinson one. Note for example the step plates lack the curve inwards of the Robinson tender and are just flat plate butted up behind the valance. If so that would mean more work, but a Bachmann tender might still be a reasonable starting point for an approximation.

 

Simon

Edited December 5, 2018 by 65179

[PaulG]

I have found four photographs of sludge tenders at Colchester taken in the 1949 - 1959 period, all different vehicles. I have spoken to a friend who worked at Colchester in the 1950s and he remembers a number of tenders being used. The sludge was only tripped a quarter of a mile, from the water softening plant by the station to a pond the Ipswich side of the loco depot. Why two of the tenders have Clacton marked on them is unknown as we can't see a reason to cart the sludge to/from Clacton, so perhaps a "dig" by local men at the Clacton crews as they passed by!

 

I have made an attempt at a sludge vehicle, unfortunately I cannot find any views of the side containing the doors to drop the sludge into the pond, so based my design on the photos referred to above.

 

The next stage is to add weathering and sludge, which presumably was an off white/grey in colour?

 

Paul