What happened to our engineering industry ?

[Steven B]

There's plenty of engineering going on in the UK, but much of it is now low volume but high value.

 

I believe there are two issues at work. One is the term engineer. In the UK an engineer is someone who comes out to fix your washing machine. In Germany an Engineer has the same weighting as Doctor as a title.

 

The other issues is the changes throughout the 70s and 80s. Those industries that modernised, and made best use of the changes to working practices continue to develope and be proffitable. Those that didn't died. We're building two huge aircraft carriers using the best of modern technology. Sticking with a team of blokes with a rivet gun because "that's the way we've always done it" leave us with housing estates and retail parks built on top of former industrial sites.

 

Design and engineering doesn't always come in the shapes of big lumps of metal that run on wheels or float on water. Virtually all smart-phone run on a tiny peice of British engineering - an ARM microprocessor. This device, smaller than a thumb nail has probably done as much to change the world as british designed and built locomotives or ships.

 

 

The "youth of today" are no less inteligent than those that went before (despite what many in the older generations may have us believe). There's more to learn about now than there way 50+ years ago so is it any wonder that learning how to use a tap and die has been replaced with how to program a computer?

 

How many of the older folk moaning about the lack of basic skills are doing anything about it? When was the last time you showed your child/grandchild how to change a plug, repair a puncture or put up wallpaper? I'm sure there are plenty of schools who would welcome some time served engineers to help run after school clubs - you might learn how to use a 3d printer or laser cutter in return...

 

Steven B.

[APOLLO]

The trouble is many (most ?) who question such things, join political parties or political organisations, strive to attain managerial and leadership positions etc etc see the advantages and perks of "the dark side", and move over to it, adopting the I'm alright jack attitude. Of course not all are like that, but too many are, I've witnessed it a few times. Again a trait of the good old British "class" system.

 

There is an apt song "The working class can kiss my ****, I've got the foreman's job at last" !!

 

Brit15

[pete_mcfarlane]

The "youth of today" are no less inteligent than those that went before (despite what many in the older generations may have us believe). 

 

It's always been like that:

 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise" - Socrates (469–399 B.C.)

 

[Tom D]

I was fortunate to have had a Toolmaking apprenticeship in the UK in the early 70's, when I started there were around 14,000 people (Designers, Engineers, Trades people) working at the company, I emigrated to Canada in the early 80's, and by that time the company was down to 3,000 people. There were two main reasons for this reduction, 1) another company (either in the UK or abroad) was making the same product for less money, 2) innovation, we had 70 Toolmakers in the company, when we bought our 1st CNC machine, it took the place of 20 Toolmakers!

 

The same is true in every profession around the world, I have to deal with Engineers from a US customer on a daily basis, the customer in question, outsourced the majority of their Engineering functions to the Far East, as it was a significant cost reduction, the Engineering skills were believed to be transferable.

 

When I took my college exams, we were not allowed to use a calculator, or use a reference book, now most of us can not get through the day, without using the computer to complete a calculation of some sort, or "Google" a particular item, that would have been difficult to find the information on 30 years ago.

 

There will never be an end to this, as people are always finding ways to design or build things more efficiently for less cost, and innovation....well someone always builds a better mouse trap. 

[jjb1970]

The trouble is many (most ?) who question such things, join political parties or political organisations, strive to attain managerial and leadership positions etc etc see the advantages and perks of "the dark side", and move over to it, adopting the I'm alright jack attitude. Of course not all are like that, but too many are, I've witnessed it a few times. Again a trait of the good old British "class" system.

 

There is an apt song "The working class can kiss my ****, I've got the foreman's job at last" !!

 

Brit15

 

I have no doubt that is true in some cases, but I suspect in most cases it is much more that reality hits home like a sledgehammer when people have a budget to manage, responsibility to deliver things, personnel management responsibilities (I may be the odd one out, but I've always found by far the hardest yet most important part of being in a supervisory or managerial rile is getting the best out of people) and the sort of stresses faced by people as they are suddenly very visible and exposed hits home.

 

The overwhelming number of managers and senior leaders I've known have genuinely felt a responsibility for those who work for them and also to preserve the jobs of those same people. This may sound like I'm rationalising ruthless commercialism but the best (indeed the only way) to provide good job security and prospects to a workforce is to maintain a good financial position so as to ensure an operation is worth continuing with, worthy of investment etc. I think I've shared this here before but I worked for a power station manager who was hated by the staff on account of her being a particularly hard nosed straight talker who took no prisoners. Yet when she left the plant the guys were gutted because for all her faults and the fact they hated aspects of her management style they also understood that she'd turned a failing plant around, secured a lot of investment and done more than any other manager the guys had worked for at the plant to give them a future. Whilst the guys didn't like her personal skills they had the utmost respect for her competence and commitment. I still maintain she was the best boss I ever worked for and behind a harsh exterior she was a deeply caring lady (she looked after me and I took far more out of observing her than anybody else I've worked for) but she was under no illusions that the figures had to stack up, that difficult and unpopular decisions had to be taken and that it was an abdication of responsibility to everybody to hide from those decisions.

 

I once read a brilliant analogy of leadership which likened leading to the difference between walking a tight rope stretched across a lounge floor and walking the same rope stretched across the grand canyon. Everybody can do it when there are no consequences to failing or accountability, it's very different if the consequences of making a mistake are that you crash and burn.

[Mike Storey]

Fascinating to learn from those who went through the changes in heavy engineering in the UK in past decades. Causes are several and there is no one universally accepted reason as far as I have read over the years, but a mixture of circumstance, competence and shareholder structure.

 

We obviously saw much the same in the British train building industry. A relatively protected domestic cartel, suddenly exposed to competition, collapsed. That is the common mythology. The truth is far more complex. Far more trains are being built (or at least assembled) in the UK than in the past 30 years. The fact that almost all of those are being undertaken by firms owned abroad is the key difference.

 

The other truism is that those firms who first took apart the UK producers have long since fallen apart themselves. Compare the dominance of the Italian FIAT Pendolinos (now owned by Japanese Hitachi), of the German ABB/Adtranz Electrostars/Turbostars (now owned by Canadian Bombardier), the gradual incursion of Swiss Stadler, and the probable ending of the US/Canadian GM EMD dominance of diesel traction, initially by the US GE products, but soon, who knows? 

 

As with the car industry, what continues to be important to many, is where they are built, and then where they are maintained (the latter tending to be the more lucrative part of any of today's deals).  Whilst there is no significant locomotive, wagon or individual carriage building facility left in the UK, all maintenance and overhaul is almost exclusively based in Britain. The issue has become where the decisions about the future are made. History, and indeed current evidence, tells us that the mere British ownership of a company does not guarantee or even prioritise British jobs. Only state ownership usually does that, and there is no reliably good, long term track record about that any more - it certainly has not worked for the French, Germans or Italians.

"class

So, one has to acknowledge that the continuing use of UK plants for at least assembly, and full manufacture for many MU's, suggests a continuing faith in the ability of UK manufacturing skills and productivity. What is lacking is the base for any possible, large scale railway export industry. In that respect, most heavy industry remaining in the UK, is way ahead. Scunthorpe even exports rails for railways these days (at the expense of a plant in France)!

 

The capability is there. It depends on what competitive element remains in the political/economic negotiations currently in hand, and the subsequent domestic attitudes to industrial strategy, that will determine its future. The apparent (reported) collapse of this government's badly mismanaged apprenticeships initiative (despite all the weasel words) due to (allegedly) serious failures in the private sector companies awarded the contracts to deliver it, does not bode well. I honestly think the "class" attitude explanation is long dead, or at least massively different - "loadsamoney" wide boys do not emanate from the aristocracy. Try TOWIE.

[APOLLO]

I've known good and bad managers, but mostly good, and in the Gas industry at least they were ALL qualified engineers (on the distribution / transmission side), even well past privatisation in 1986. The rot started with the "takeover" by National Grid in 2002, though this was after the BG split (BG was the exploration & production section, Shell bought that a couple of years ago- they wanted that back in 1986 - they've been waiting since then to pounce !!).

 

Though I was never classed a manager my duties were many and varied. Planning, running & semi supervision of large pipe renewal projects together with standby gas escape / incident duties. As Jjb1970 rightly states, you look after your men. I've worked with many excellent teams (both Irish contractors and local direct labour) in difficult and demanding jobs many times in foul weather at all hours of the day - we all got stuck in and got the job done, bosses and all, occasionally including senior board members when the severity of an incident warranted it. I've few if any bad words to say about gas industry management over my career. (up to National Grid).

 

Little tale. 1982, before privatisation  there was a very big reorganisation in the Gas Industry (ROR _ regional operating review). The outcome for us was a brand spanking new office at Warrington. We moved in alongside other departments - all open plan. Soon after a computer appeared in our department- just one. Green eyed monster it was known (or was that the girl who operated it) - used to record jobsheets etc. We were all having a look and a fiddle (with the computer !!) when the district engineer said - you'll ALL have one of these on your desk in a couple of years - this building was designed for it. Rubbish we all said - what the hell do we engineers need a computer for !!!!

 

Well, the rest is history.

 

As others have said - no going back. (by the way Warrington office was demolished quite a few years ago and is now the Royal Mail rail depot).

 

Brit15

Edited April 3, 2018 by APOLLO

[Zomboid]

Managers of engineers don't necessarily need to be able to do everyone's job who reports to them, but it is asking for trouble if they don't have any kind of background in engineering or understanding of the processes they're managing.

 

Though to be honest that applies to pretty much every job in every industry.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Zomboid

[Nimbus]

Design and engineering doesn't always come in the shapes of big lumps of metal that run on wheels or float on water. Virtually all smart-phone run on a tiny peice of British engineering - an ARM microprocessor. 

 

 

Now in Japanese ownership!

 

 

How many of the older folk moaning about the lack of basic skills are doing anything about it? 

 

My impression is that the loudest wails are from those captains of industry who don't want to stump up for any training themselves.

 

The Nim.

[jjb1970]

Computers have revolutionised so many aspects of life, and engineering especially so. The number crunching capabilities of not very modern computers opened up all sorts of possibilities, CAD/CAM transformed design and manufacture, electronic control and supervisory systems transformed operations, electronic engine controls have transformed performance, emissions and economy etc. Most of those impacts have been undeniably beneficial but it is also true that you can do an awful lot more with an awful lot less in terms of man power. In some ways it is not so much that jobs have been lost (though they have) but that the necessary skills have changed and not all can, or want to, adapt. When I was at sea marine engineers were primarily mechanical engineers with above average electrical engineering skills for people who weren't electrical engineers and they needed to be handy with operating and maintaining big lumps of metal. Now the skill set is increasingly dominated by a requirement for knowledge of electronic control systems.

My last job where I did real engineering involved torsional vibration analysis involving FEA modelling of marine propulsion systems and huge amounts of number crunching and engine emissions analysis which involved a lot of combustion thermodynamics and modelling (an odd combination which I arrived at by a strange set of circumstances). In each case the sheer number of calculations involved would have been prohibitive before computers, torsional vibration analysis did make the intermediate step via early computers using punch card data input but the computers ran overnight to do the calculations and performed nothing like the number of calculations we do now and with the analysis appearing almost as soon as you hit the run key. And the crazy thing is that the computers were bread and butter vanilla PCs that many domestic users would turn their noses up at.

Engineering can provide a terrific career and a world of opportunities but I think part of the deal is you need to accept a requirement for on-going learning and retraining and that you will need to adapt to change throughout your career.

[rockershovel]

One thing I learnt long ago, is that the British resistance to change of any sort, is inherently linked to the general, deeply held conviction that (a) it is designed for someone else’s benefit (2) you won’t have any meaningful control or input. This isn’t necessarily true, but it certainly isn’t without foundation.

 

This tends to create the feeling that whoever is currently leading or managing things, aren’t worth following, and the results of THAT aren’t hard to find.

Edited April 4, 2018 by rockershovel

[APOLLO]

Marine engineering - I did my ONC Mechanical Engineering at Riversdale Tech Liverpool (now long gone). It was primarily a merchant navy engineering college, the lecturers were mostly en MN, and boy they were strict (and also knew their stuff).

 

When Riversdale closed some courses and lecturers moved up the road to Liverpool John Moore University - Marine engineering is still taught at Liverpool.

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

Computers have revolutionised so many aspects of life, and engineering especially so. 

 

Engineering can provide a terrific career and a world of opportunities but I think part of the deal is you need to accept a requirement for on-going learning and retraining and that you will need to adapt to change throughout your career.

 

I witnessed and was involved in this mostly all of my career. first computer I ever saw was in 1969 at the North Western Gas Board HQ in Altrincham. A huge thing with the obligatory flashing lights and reel to reel tapes !!. It processed the regions gas bills.

 

The North West Gas region was always at the forefront of introducing new technology. We were involved over the years in implementing many new pipe laying / pipe replacement techniques, nearly all of which saved money / manpower - but they never completely replaced the guy on the spade, not even today. !!

 

It (for us) was a matter of just learning it and using it, providing feedback etc. Not everything was a success though, what didn't work was binned despite what the boffins told us, but mostly it was made to work. I never forget first seeing a fully automatic PE (plastic) pipe automatic but welding machine. Just clamp the pipes in the machine, set the diameter & pipe spec and press a button. The machine then cut the faces square, inserted a heater plate, applied the correct pressure for the correct time, removed the heater plate and made the join at the correct pressure and time, it then allowed the correct cooling time before a little bell rang and "joint complete" flashed up. Just enough time for a brew between joints !!!

 

No un-inventing this stuff !!!!

 

Brit15

[Torper]

This tends to create the feeling that whoever is currently leading or managing things, aren’t worth following, .

 

If you look at how we've been governed over over the last few decades that's probably not an unreasonable conclusion.

 

DT

[rockershovel]

Reel to reel tape and flashing lights? You were lucky! The first computer I worked with had a huge cabinet of punch cards and lived in an air-conditioned room, which was more than WE were entitled too..

[Kickstart]

Reel to reel tape and flashing lights? You were lucky! The first computer I worked with had a huge cabinet of punch cards and lived in an air-conditioned room, which was more than WE were entitled too..

I started in IT in the late 1980s. Punched cards were still barely in use then for job control.

 

Some people were quite sad to see them go. Made it far easier to bypass steps of a job! On the other hand, getting rid of them saved trying to pick up and sort out a deck when it was dropped.

 

I remember one company I worked for in the late 1980s. While we had full access to 3380 DASD these were quite busy. It was quite often faster to run jobs against tape as there was far less demand for the job classes that allowed tape access.

 

Katy

[tigerburnie]

I come from a family of engineers, going back to T. W. Worsdell(my Great, Great Grandfather), my son is a Royal Engineer, but I doubt any of my Grandchildren will follow into engineering as the rewards seem few and far between. I am saddened that we rely so heavily on imports and that what few profitable engineering companies left seem to be wholly owned by multi nationals. I recently retired from the Oil industry and the waste I witnessed was astonishing, management was very poor in actually doing that, managing, by contrast the Japanese car factory I worked in as a maintenance engineer was governed in a much more cost effective way, though the British managers were poor and lacking in proper man management training.

[Ohmisterporter]

At the start of my working life in the mid 1960s there were no women involved in any branch of engineering, or at least I never met any. It was the 1990s before I met any, and their numbers have increased since then. And why not?  There has been a lot of talk about women being paid less than men doing the same jobs. I can honestly say that as far as my experience goes, where the shopfloor is concerned all workers have been paid equally for doing the same work. I cannot speak for senior management positions but certainly all the process workers were equal. Having said that, in places were all the operators were women, all the supervisors and managers were men. Often they would find a problem that the women solved for them but I digress.

[rockershovel]

I come from a family of engineers, going back to T. W. Worsdell(my Great, Great Grandfather), my son is a Royal Engineer, but I doubt any of my Grandchildren will follow into engineering as the rewards seem few and far between. I am saddened that we rely so heavily on imports and that what few profitable engineering companies left seem to be wholly owned by multi nationals. I recently retired from the Oil industry and the waste I witnessed was astonishing, management was very poor in actually doing that, managing, by contrast the Japanese car factory I worked in as a maintenance engineer was governed in a much more cost effective way, though the British managers were poor and lacking in proper man management training.

The oil industry is a world on its own, especially the exploration and development side (which is my main experience if it). The value of the product streams, at times, defies comprehension. The fixed costs are absolutely enormous, and the level of risk undertaken quite unlike any other industry. A lot of the time, the real question is not “how much” but “how soon”.

 

Try filling in a Risk Assessment and see the sort of thing which soon appears on the right side of the page!

 

Present the management of a Japanese car plant with the huge web of rapidly changing variables, knowns, probabilities and unknowns which is the average oilfield exploration and development phase, and see how they get on..

Edited April 4, 2018 by rockershovel

[terrysoham]

The Government, of whatever colour, decided in their wisdom that the UK's future lay with the finance and non-manufacturing "industry".

Might be worth asking how many politicians are in finance rather than engineering. I'm not sure myself, but the answer could be very revealing.

 

On another topic I would also like to know why every technician, including the boiler repair man and the man who writes software, now feels the need to call himself an "engineer".

[Robin2]

On another topic I would also like to know why every technician, including the boiler repair man and the man who writes software, now feels the need to call himself an "engineer".

I find that very irritating - except for the software writer.

 

It's the equivalent of a pharmacy assistant calling himself "doctor"

 

...R

[Fat Controller]

The Government, of whatever colour, decided in their wisdom that the UK's future lay with the finance and non-manufacturing "industry".

Might be worth asking how many politicians are in finance rather than engineering. I'm not sure myself, but the answer could be very revealing.

 

On another topic I would also like to know why every technician, including the boiler repair man and the man who writes software, now feels the need to call himself an "engineer".

I remember an old boss, coming back from a Conservative Party conference in the early/mid 1980s, proclaiming that ours was now a service company. As I was surrounded by tins of ink and paint, manufactured in our own factory, I had to remind myself that, over seven years of studying the 'Dismal Science', I had always been told that service industries did not produce physical products, but rather things called 'intangibles'. I kicked a tin and it hurt; I was reassured that my teachers had been correct.

'The Service Economy' was a construction by groups led by PR and advertising people, themselves members of what Douglas Adams called the 'B Ark'

[GeoffAlan]

One of my sons is an Electronic and Electrical engineer. Two yrs ago the firm he works for made £10m plus on one item. He was involved in control systems for this item.

He's about to change jobs (a promotion) to another firm based 15 miles or so from his present firm. Engineering is still alive and well in the UK, despite successive governments' attempts to kill it off.

[bike2steam]

At the start of my working life in the mid 1960s there were no women involved in any branch of engineering, or at least I never met any. It was the 1990s before I met any, and their numbers have increased since then. And why not?  There has been a lot of talk about women being paid less than men doing the same jobs. I can honestly say that as far as my experience goes, where the shopfloor is concerned all workers have been paid equally for doing the same work. I cannot speak for senior management positions but certainly all the process workers were equal. Having said that, in places were all the operators were women, all the supervisors and managers were men. Often they would find a problem that the women solved for them but I digress.

 

Ha, I started just a couple of years later, 1968 after a year in the 'apprentice school', and there were plenty of women on the production lines, all part of the education but not engineering. But you're last sentence made me smile.

[jjb1970]

Engineer is like a lot of other words in that its etymology is quite interesting and people who get worked up about it being abused generally select a usage which is itself selected from a point in time long after the words origin. Doctor is another one which has an interesting history and which current general use is not what it originally meant.

 

I'm a chartered engineer, I hold a bachelors and a masters degree and am a fellow of my professional institute. So I suppose that entitles me to call myself an engineer. I also spent quite a few years sweating away in a ships engine room and my certificate of competence was to sail as chief engineer as well as ships articles, minimum manning certificates, the STCW convention and a host of other legal documents referring to engineer (including at cadet level). So I suppose the fact I was described as an engineer in numerous national and international legal documents entitled me to call myself an engineer before I got myself edumacated. Personally I've never really been bothered by people calling themselves engineers, it's probably no more an abuse of a word than most other words I hear and if we went back to the origin of words as often as not the meaning is nothing like the meaning expounded by those who get upset about such things (including me at times I'll admit).

Edited April 4, 2018 by jjb1970