What happened to our engineering industry ?

[bike2steam]

I did a Technical Engineering Apprenticeship at this place, 1967 to 1972. But love the old vehicles. They also helped the Severn Valley Railway get on their feet at the initial stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lTh55L2Mjw

Edited April 2, 2018 by bike2steam

[Robin2]

Nice video - I have saved a copy.

 

There seems to have been little serious attempt to analyse the causes of the decline of UK industry with the result that future generations are likely to make the same mistakes.

 

It has little or nothing to do with the cost of living because heavy engineering is alive and flourishing in Germany.

 

...R

[Nearholmer]

And, it’s very patchy. We are still a very major supplier of gas turbines, excavators, cars (even if a lot of the factories are foreign owned), military hardware, and a number of other things. The UK isn’t quite the ‘industrial dessert’ it’s thought to be, but manufacture in this sector is so hugely efficient that it doesn’t employ anything like the number it used to. Agriculture is similar: we grow a lot of stuff, but the industry employs barely anyone.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Horsetan]

And, it’s very patchy. We are still a very major supplier of gas turbines, excavators, cars (even if a lot of the factories are foreign owned), military hardware, and a number of other things. The UK isn’t quite the ‘industrial dessert’ it’s thought to be, but manufacture in this sector is so hugely efficient that it doesn’t employ anything like the number it used to. Agriculture is similar: we grow a lot of stuff, but the industry employs barely anyone.

Also add in increased robotisation in the years to come.

[coachmann]

Very little analysts required as far as I'm concerned. Resistance to change killed off industry and I saw it unfolding. It existed in the board room and on the shop floor. I did a number of "labouring" jobs from 1958 to 1972 and in nearly all cases the men clocked in, did as little as possible and clocked out while trades unions protected their rights, traditions and demarcation lines.  Initiative was crushed and modernization was impossible. The 'greedies' did the rest.  At least the rotting carcass of the British industrial inertia provided atmospheric backdrops for 'The Sweeney'.....

 

Ah well, back to my rose-tinted Monday morning ....

Edited April 2, 2018 by coachmann

[Mike Storey]

This gives some clue, about Rubery Owen specifically and British industry generally. Go to near the end, the 1970's.

 

http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/articles/Darlaston/RO2.htm

[Rugd1022]

And, it’s very patchy. We are still a very major supplier of gas turbines, excavators, cars (even if a lot of the factories are foreign owned), military hardware, and a number of other things. The UK isn’t quite the ‘industrial dessert’ it’s thought to be, but manufacture in this sector is so hugely efficient that it doesn’t employ anything like the number it used to. Agriculture is similar: we grow a lot of stuff, but the industry employs barely anyone.

 

I think overall engineering in this country doesn't get the coverage and appreciation it deserves, there far more small and medium sized firms doing excellent business than most people probably realise. As an example, the classic car back up industry employs something like 28,000 people, most of them in highly skilled jobs bringing something in the low billions to the economy. In the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't seem like much at all but it represents a lot of investment in the future. The West Midlands is still a hub of activity in this regard, not to mention 'Motorsport valley' further to the south in Warwickshire, Northamptonshire and Oxfordshire.

[Nearholmer]

Somewhere in a factory near you, robots are currently building robots ......... which is simply interesting ....... it’s the labs where software is writing software that we really need to worry about.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Torper]

Very little analysts required as far as I'm concerned. British disease and resistance to change killed off industry and I saw it unfolding. It existed in Whitehall, the board room and on the shop floor.

But why only "British" disease?  Why did the same thing not seem to affect other countries?  Is it somehow genetic?  Or maybe we're just too interested in tradition, which some might say is the curse of this country, and don't want to think about the future?

 

DT

[Horsetan]

Somewhere in a factory near you, robots are currently building robots ......... which is simply interesting ....... it’s the labs where software is writing software that we really need to worry about.

See also China, where AI is being harnessed to monitor the population via "social credit".

[jjb1970]

The simple but rather glib answer is that it is still there, just not in the same form as it was 40 years ago.

[Mike Storey]

But why only "British" disease?  Why did the same thing not seem to affect other countries?  Is it somehow genetic?  Or maybe we're just too interested in tradition, which some might say is the curse of this country, and don't want to think about the future?

 

DT

 

It did, and big time, especially in France and Italy. But it was convenient to label the UK, because it seemed endless. France's industrial and economic "miracle" of the 1960's and 70's, was interspersed with massive strikes and demonstrations, as well as frequent changes in government. But some analysis suggest that it was the governmental attitudes that differed markedly; massive state direction, investment and protection on the one hand, but on the other, in the UK, facing a complete demolition of protected markets previously enjoyed, the usual application of austerity measures rather than any serious attempt to forge a long term strategy and stick to it. (The few attempts made, such as Wilson's "White Heat" revolution, were barely more than electioneering.) Short term subsidies and nationalisations could not alter the fact that private investment capital was in short supply, inflation was uncontrollable because the pound was plummeting and the oil crises seemed to affect the UK more than others. The Labour force reaction, after a decade in the fifties of some poor management (particularly ex-forces managers and supervisors who could simply not understand the difference in civilian life), was partly understandable, but the underlying politicisation of the Trades Unions was nothing new. The TUC was actually far more politicised in the 1930's and Atlee struggled to contain it right through his later tenure.

 

So much more complex than bolshy shop stewards and lazy workers, but there is little agreement on main causes, as far as I can see. A combination of many interconnecting things. All far too complicated for the simple minds of Thatcher and her Daily Express supporters. Far easier to get rid of it all and make money in the city and from property. Incidentally, in the first year or two of her reign, and on the last, productivity fell faster than since records began. It is a wonder there was anything left after that.

 

But don't think for one moment that the rest of Europe did not go through similar problems. They just handled them more competently.

[EddieB]

One of the big factors is that we don't teach our kids technology, engineering or even these days, applied mathematics any more.  Yes, they get some basics about bridges at primary school, but what passes for "science" these days is a narrow focus on a limited selection of major topics in ever increasing detail as they pass through the system.  They get to know some of the theory, but little understanding of how much modern technology actually works.  Traditional hobbies that involve construction of "things that work" are in decline and the push for 50% to go to university means that the practical skills once taught to the less academic are in sharp decline.  By the time they go to college or start an apprenticeship they have to start with the basics and are already playing catch-up.

[62613]

Very little analysts required as far as I'm concerned. Resistance to change killed off industry and I saw it unfolding. It existed in the board room and on the shop floor. I did a number of "labouring" jobs from 1958 to 1972 and in nearly all cases the men clocked in, did as little as possible and clocked out while trades unions protected their rights, traditions and demarcation lines.  Initiative was crushed and modernization was impossible. The 'greedies' did the rest.  At least the rotting carcass of the British industrial inertia provided atmospheric backdrops for 'The Sweeney'.....

 

Ah well, back to my rose-tinted Monday morning ....

Goes back a long way before you, or even I, started in industry; probably as far back as the middle to late 19th century, when the 'British is best' attitude really started, and we didn't need to modernise. There were those in the mid-19th century who genuinely believed that the rest of the world wasn't going to invest in industrial capacity; there were others that believed that you didn't need to give our managers a technical education, rather that empirical experience would see us through. there is also the attitude, prevalent then as it is now, that the gentleman was superior to the industrialist, and that engineering as a profession is regarded in the UK today as a second-class occupation, especially when compared to, say, the law, or a gambler in banking, or in the financial sector.

 

In 1880, for instance, Britain had 23% of world trade, Germany 9%; by 1913, the figures were 17% to 12%. Britain had fallen to 3rd place in the production of that basic commodity, steel, behind the USA and Germany

[rockershovel]

But why only "British" disease? Why did the same thing not seem to affect other countries? Is it somehow genetic? Or maybe we're just too interested in tradition, which some might say is the curse of this country, and don't want to think about the future?

 

DT

The Germans, in particular, took the view that a robust engineering sector was inherently valuable, and made it government policy to ensure it developed and survived. The Dutch have siphoned off hundreds of millions of € from offshore renewables construction...

 

One core problem of British policy has always been the fundamental lack of trust between all parties. The workforce, particularly, see relations as inherently adversarial, while the management never saw the companies they managed as inherently valuable.

Edited April 2, 2018 by rockershovel

['CHARD]

The UK isn’t quite the ‘industrial dessert’ it’s thought to be

 

Industrial dessert hey!  

 

Tasty!

 

[Nearholmer]

I think I’ll pass on the pud; I’m watching my waist (and heavy metals count).

 

Apologies for the surplus ‘s’ sneaking silently into that syllable, so subtly subverting the sense.

[APOLLO]

Not all bad news with our youth on the engineering front.

 

My son graduated from Liverpool uni last year with a first class masters degree in Mechanical Engineering - now a graduate trainee with a large oil company.

 

Twin girls at college studying A level maths, physics chemistry & biology. One wants to go into engineering, the other in bio medicine.

 

Born and brought up in Wigan, local state education. Nothing "special" - they are just (bl**dy) hard workers.

 

Want to know what ruined our engineering industry (started many, many years ago) - That "great" British institution - Class. (i.e us and them), and greed.

 

Brit15

[Nearholmer]

I’d be jubilant if my son or daughter decide to pursue engineering. There’s a serious shortage of engineers in the U.K., so not only is anyone going into itlikely to have an interesting time, because it’s interesting, they are likely to have no difficulty finding work.

[Huw Griffiths]

I’d be jubilant if my son or daughter decide to pursue engineering. There’s a serious shortage of engineers in the U.K., so not only is anyone going into itlikely to have an interesting time, because it’s interesting, they are likely to have no difficulty finding work.

 

Perhaps.

 

I know of good people, who've had differing experiences - like potential employers only being prepared to look at people who are already working in the same industry, ready trained and doing almost identical jobs.

 

I'm not saying that all employers are like this - or have so little imagination about the potential of credible job applicants - but it's certainly been going on for a number of years.

 

 

Huw.

[Dagworth]

Look at what happened last week with the hostile takeover of GKN by asset strippers, in Germany this would not have been possible as they would need a 75% vote of shareholders there instead of just a simple majority. Capitalist asset strippers make a quick buck, another substantial engineering company decimated.

Also in the Maplin thread it was mentioned that in Germany Trade Unions get to sit on the boards of companies.

These two things alone are a large part of why Germany still has a heavy engineering industry and Britain doesn't.

Andi

Edited April 2, 2018 by Dagworth

[Silver Sidelines]

I do wonder if we are doing enough research.  In the old days there was BRE and TRRL not forgetting the Welding Institue and a string of Agricultural Research Institutes.  In the north east of England there were industrial owned research establishments, for iron and steel, chemcals and gas engineering.  Probably also ship building.  In order to provide a dividend for the new private shareholders a lot of these industrial research establishments were closed down or severely pruned.  The wheel is now turning full circle and one research site that I dismanteld in the 1990s is now being touted as the location for a new renewable energy research and development centre, to be funded by grants and contributions from academia.  Unfortunately a lot of experience (at people level) has been lost.  I have a feeling that politicians and financiers think that knowedge is transferrable.  It might well be but in my opinion knowledge is not to be confused with expertise.

 

Ray

Edited April 2, 2018 by Silver Sidelines

[4630]

Look at what happened last week with the hostile takeover of GKN by asset strippers, in Germany this would not have been possible as they would need a 75% vote of shareholders there instead of just a simple majority. Capitalist asset strippers make a quick buck, another substantial engineering company decimated.

 

 

 

I'm waiting for the early announcement from Melrose that they won't be abiding by all the 'legally binding' undertakings regarding GKN that the Government thinks it has secured.  Cynical, moi? 

[bike2steam]

The simple but rather glib answer is that it is still there, just not in the same form as it was 40 years ago.

 

You ain't kiddin', the 'Black Country' area today bears no resemblance to what it was like 50+ years ago, gone have most, if not all, of the heavy engineering business's, steel works, stamping works and foundries. Sorry all this is due to a nostalgic discussion over the Easter weekend between me, and 3 other former 'BC' residents living in this part of the world ( Dorset).    

[Barry O]

As a retired Engineer I can suggest some ideas of where it went wrong

 

1 Shareholders and the "City" demand a 10% profit. If you deliver that R&D is stripped to the bone.

2 In the UK the desire to make a quick buck overwhelms any support a firm may get - GKN/Melrose is one example - and if you have any form of private pension this means you as the people who "Look" after your penision fund do like making money

3 In Germany Engineering firms are really a Bank who does engineering. They don't look for 10% profits - they can make that from their financial reserves.

4 In Leeds (as a local example) the City Council sees all forms of Engineering as dirty and useless. They prefer "service "Industries. As a results houses have been built on the old Charles Roe site, ROF Barnbow site and elsewhere,

5 Some employers (such as BAe) have brought in managers from overseas who basically run down any UK competition to their own factories. Clue and less!

 

Baz