Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I have never been a fan of DCC and apart from the cost I get annoyed at the amount of DCC layouts I see at shows with nothing running for an hour or so while everyone stands around scratching their heads. There is usually at least one at each show I attend but yesterday at York was unbelievable. The sign as below was in place when the show opened at 10.00 and was still there when it closed at 4.30. Looking at the sign it seems to be pre-printed on a PC suggesting that this seems to be fairly frequent. It was said by some that they think this was all 3 days of the show but I was only there all day yesterday. To me standard model railway shows should be analogue only and let others have special shows just for DCC where people can discuss issues, and, have the very infuriating non realistic sound going on. It annoys me to hear the sounds from all over the hall and in different rooms sometimes because operators will not turn it down. I have been to a show where two layouts next to each other both have sound and you could not hear one for the other. I also exhibited at one show and had to ask the layout opposite to switch it off as it was so loud my wife had to turn her hearing aid off due to the noise. Believe it or not the operator said they had no idea how to reduce the volume. Before anyone mentions DCC layouts should be broken into smaller section does this not defeat the original concept of "two wires only needed?" Apart from the sound which I really do not like I will say a few layouts do run fine at shows but there is always the odd one or two that give issues. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 and of course analogue layouts don't have problems .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 and of course analogue layouts don't have problems .... They do but no where near as frequently and drastic as DCC does. At least with analogue trains can run in other areas, the whole layout is not shut down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 ...I also exhibited at one show and had to ask the layout opposite to switch it (sound) off as it was so loud my wife had to turn her hearing aid off due to the noise. Believe it or not the operator said they had no idea how to reduce the volume... Garry, An item to have in your toolkit should this situation ever arise again: advise operator that on most set ups F0 or F1 is a toggle 'on/off' for sound. The 'off' position produces the consistently superior effect in my experience. I should like show operators to seriously restrict the time that layouts operate with sound effects - like ten minutes per day maximum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 my experience would be completely the opposite, it is the DC layouts that have issues - but I will agree on the cheap tiny sound that is somewhat unrealistic 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 Garry, An item to have in your toolkit should this situation ever arise again: advise operator that on most set ups F0 or F1 is a toggle 'on/off' for sound. The 'off' position produces the consistently superior effect in my experience. I should like show operators to seriously restrict the time that layouts operate with sound effects - like ten minutes per day maximum. Thanks, I did have a letter published in Hornby magazine regarding the "unpleasant" experience we had at the show a couple of years ago. At least as a visitor I can walk away, which I mainly do if the layout has sound, but as an exhibitor I did not have that luxury and had to involve the organisers who agreed it was over the top. One really bad one was at Pontefract a couple of years ago when the sound from the locos on a small colliery layout could be heard even upstairs in a different room, last year at Halifax I could not eat my lunch in peace upstairs in the landing dining area due to the sounds from one layout. I guess if organizers said 10 minutes the complaint would be not everyone would be around at that time, unless advertised that between x time and y time sound would be on and off the rest of the day. For 10 or 15 only I minutes I could cope with that. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Its not the time limit its the volume. I love sound myself but it must be realistic. A model loco should not make the same volume of sound as a full size loco. During a visit to a UK show some years ago I can remember when a right row broke out between two exhibitors about the volume of sound. One exhibitor has a US themed layout with sound which seemed to come out like a hi-fi at full blast. It was horrendous. As regards to running problems. Its not restricted to DCC alone. Dirty track & dirty wheels are available in DC flavour as well. Tony. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymsa Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I have never been a fan of DCC and apart from the cost I get annoyed at the amount of DCC layouts I see at shows with nothing running for an hour or so while everyone stands around scratching their heads. There is usually at least one at each show I attend but yesterday at York was unbelievable. The sign as below was in place when the show opened at 10.00 and was still there when it closed at 4.30. Looking at the sign it seems to be pre-printed on a PC suggesting that this seems to be fairly frequent. It was said by some that they think this was all 3 days of the show but I was only there all day yesterday. To me standard model railway shows should be analogue only and let others have special shows just for DCC where people can discuss issues, and, have the very infuriating non realistic sound going on. It annoys me to hear the sounds from all over the hall and in different rooms sometimes because operators will not turn it down. I have been to a show where two layouts next to each other both have sound and you could not hear one for the other. I also exhibited at one show and had to ask the layout opposite to switch it off as it was so loud my wife had to turn her hearing aid off due to the noise. Believe it or not the operator said they had no idea how to reduce the volume. Before anyone mentions DCC layouts should be broken into smaller section does this not defeat the original concept of "two wires only needed?" Apart from the sound which I really do not like I will say a few layouts do run fine at shows but there is always the odd one or two that give issues. Garry Well an interesting post indeed, I would say that layouts that are moved around for exhibitions are more prone to running issues for various reasons, but I'm sure the operators of the layout in your photo were not happy with the situation themselves and were probably frustrated at not being able to display there layout properly of which I'm sure many hours of work had gone into. But to put blame on DCC as a whole is rather unfair as DC layouts can have equal running issues. The point of a model railway show is to display and educate all aspects of the hobby, and to split off DCC for its own dedicated show would be counter productive. The days of zero 1 and two wires to the track are long gone, but basically this is still the case but with the advances of DCC this is not sometimes the case. In essence you can make it as complex or simple as you want. You do make a good point about sound which to a degree is correct and personally I'm not a lover of it but when done correctly it does enhance a layout and show what can be achieved with DCC. Andy 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 So, no sweeping generalisations or polarised opinions in the OP, then..!! To me standard model railway shows should be analogue only and let others have special shows just for DCC where people can discuss issues, and, have the very infuriating non realistic sound going on. Good luck with that idea - I seriously doubt you could even get one decent Exhibition together these days using just 12vDC-only layouts; the vast majority will be DCC these days. At a Show I exhibited at about 4 years ago, of the 18 or so layouts there, only 2 were 12vDC - one of which was mine, and by the time I took it to another show a year later, it was DCC. DCC Sound is a different issue altogether and will never be fully resolved either, I think. I can't even watch a YouTube video of Bachmann Class 20s with sound as the whistling sets my tinitus off something rotten, but that's not to say I hate all sound locos as a result - I have some myself. I wonder if, back when electricity was first being used to power model trains, some moaned about all the (perceived) trouble with it, and said Exhibitions should be 'Clockwork Only'. Finally, I wonder how long before this thread is locked??... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 advise operator that on most set ups F0 or F1 is a toggle 'on/off' for sound. The 'off' position produces the consistently superior effect in my experience. Yeah that'll go down well - an Operator being "advised" by someone who so clearly hates DCC and Sound as Garry does, how their system works. On mine, it's F8 to mute the sound. F0 would just switch the lights - F1 will blow a very nice, loud American air horn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 To me standard model railway shows should be analogue only and let others have special shows just for DCC where people can discuss issues, and, have the very infuriating non realistic sound going on. While we're at it, sod prototypical accuracy. Lets ban all the shunting planks [1] and only have roundy-roundy tail chasers with lots of trains running. [1] Replace with your favourite modelling prejudice 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted April 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2018 Do you know what the fault was? Was it DCC specific or a more generic problem? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted April 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2018 While we're at it, sod prototypical accuracy. Lets ban all the shunting planks [1] and only have roundy-roundy tail chasers with lots of trains running. As long as they are DCC without sound I'm up for that Andi 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 Do you know what the fault was? Was it DCC specific or a more generic problem? Only what the note said. No one seemed to be looking at the layout but just "pottering" around behind it doing something else. As has been mentioned though to have a ready made sign available suggests it is not the first time. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2018 DCC sound..well you can set it lower as required. It should be at a level which doesn't intrude but it does, if done properly, make a big difference. All layouts dc and dcc can have electrical gremlins especially after being transported to a show. It only takes one connector tog o u/s and it can create chaos. For both dc and dcc you could try using a graphite pencil on the top of the rails to improve pick up performance - it doesn't seem to affect the tractive power of locos on theh layouts I have operated where it is used (Herculaneum Dock, Chapel en le Frith for two. Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 It only take 20 secs to print a sign ... and that can be done almost anywhere these days Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 It only take 20 secs to print a sign ... and that can be done almost anywhere these days And how many people take a PC AND a printer to a model railway show? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) All show organisers I have met have PCs with printers available at the venues - plus if you have a phone then you can print it easily to almost all modern printers. Bit like DCC in model railways, it's a brave new world these days where you do most things anywhere (if you open your mind to the capabilities) Edited April 3, 2018 by WIMorrison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 (edited) All show organisers I have met have PCs with printers available at the venues - plus if you have a phone then you can print it easily to almost all modern printers. Bit like DCC in model railways, it's a brave new world these days where you do most things anywhere (if you open your mind to the capabilities) What ever excuses are made at the end of the day as a member of the paying public, £9 entrance fee, it is not a good advertisment. Edited April 3, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2018 And how many people take a PC AND a printer to a model railway show? The organisers and some of the layouts would you believe... I take it your layout never has any failures when at a show ..ever??? Baz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 The organisers and some of the layouts would you believe... I take it your layout never has any failures when at a show ..ever??? Baz They have had the odd issue, not often, but I will say nothing that was not sorted out in less than 5 minutes and the rest of the layout ran while it was sorted. We are talking all day here with a complete layout shutdown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 What ever excuses are made at the end of the day as a member of the paying public, £9 entrance fee, it is not a good advertisment. You seem so aggrieved by this - did you ask for your money back?? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted April 3, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 3, 2018 Perhaps it would have been better if the sign had been analogue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 You seem so aggrieved by this - did you ask for your money back?? No I started the post in the knowledge that TO ME, a lot (not all) of DCC layouts at shows have issues that stop the whole layout working. All the others were rectified in an hour or so, sometimes quicker but this was an all day strike, possibly longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share Posted April 3, 2018 You mean hand written? Though I gather that human hands have 5 digits! From the OP I understand that the sign was being displayed on Monday? It was there around 12 noon on Sunday when I visited. SWMBO was with me and a bit intolerant of any layout that didn't have anything moving when we visited. Thankfully two rounds of fish & chips at the restaurant on the top floor made up for the disappointment though. Yes all day Monday so if you saw it at 12.00 on Sunday that is more than 1 and 1/2 days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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