Preservation efforts thwarted

[ejstubbs]

Pedantically it's the "At last the 1948 show" 4 Yorkshiremen sketch, MP plagiarised it.

 

"Plagiarised" is probably unfair.  The sketch was written for At Last the 1948 Show (which was broadcast in 1967 - the title was a joke) by Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman (possibly with some input from Barry Cryer).  I suspect that Cleese and Chapman may have some authorial rights to it.  It wasn't used in any of the Python TV shows, only performed in their live shows.  Although there was some variation between the live performances - not at all unusual for live performers, plenty of musicians have 'adapted' their own songs over time - they kept very close to the basic "Four Yorkshiremen" theme.

 

Variants of the sketch have also been performed a number of times in Amnesty International shows (with Pythons only involved in the 1979 Secret Policeman's Ball) and for Comic Relief.  The sketch is so well known that it's not possible that these performances were unauthorised.

 

An accusation of plagiarism might perhaps be made with a fraction more justification about a sketch which appeared in I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again.  Although the theme of that sketch was about difficulties of travel in bygone times rather then hard living conditions, it still finished with the same "...and if you tell that to the young people today, they won't believe you..." line.  But even that version has a good degree of legitimacy, given that Cleese and Brooke-Taylor were both ISIRTA cast members, and Chapman wrote for the show as well.

Edited April 9, 2018 by ejstubbs

[coachmann]

Non-corridor coaches are being added to at Llangollen (BR Mk.I type) and I think there will be a four coach set at work this coming weekend, all in early BR carmine red. I rode in the first one some years ago and it was definitely nostalgic. We took such common and garden coaches for granted at one time. 

[Phil Bullock]

Given all the doors and windows are they not the worst rot boxes of all?

 

Phil

[peteskitchen]

 

 

I heard that ex-LMS pacific City of Lichfield was due to be preserved by Lichfield City Council, but am unaware why it wasn't. Similarly I understand that City of Lancaster suffered the same fate because the B R board demanded exorbitant movement fees.

 

 

 AFAIK Lichfield City council were offered the loco and were interested, but failed to raise the money required to buy, move and display the loco.

[PatB]

Given that the youngest Mk1 is now 55+ years old, I don't think any problems with them can fairly be described as design weaknesses as such. That's really not a bad service life in anybody's book.

[DavidB-AU]

A4 Common wealth of Australia was offered to said country by BR but it was rejected and cut up

Rejected is probably too strong, it simply couldn't be accepted. There wasn't a group capable of preserving it at the time, plus the expense of getting it to Australia.

 

60013 Dominion of New Zealand was offered to New Zealand at the same time but the offer couldn't be accepted for the same reason. However they did accept one of the name plates. It was on display at New Zealand House in London for many years and eventually passed to the New Zealand Railways Department. It is now on the wall outside the KiwiRail offices at Wellington railway station.

 

Cheers

David

Edited April 10, 2018 by DavidB-AU

[Enterprisingwestern]

"Plagiarised" is probably unfair.  The sketch was written for At Last the 1948 Show (which was broadcast in 1967 - the title was a joke) by Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman (possibly with some input from Barry Cryer).  I suspect that Cleese and Chapman may have some authorial rights to it.  It wasn't used in any of the Python TV shows, only performed in their live shows.  Although there was some variation between the live performances - not at all unusual for live performers, plenty of musicians have 'adapted' their own songs over time - they kept very close to the basic "Four Yorkshiremen" theme.

 

Variants of the sketch have also been performed a number of times in Amnesty International shows (with Pythons only involved in the 1979 Secret Policeman's Ball) and for Comic Relief.  The sketch is so well known that it's not possible that these performances were unauthorised.

 

An accusation of plagiarism might perhaps be made with a fraction more justification about a sketch which appeared in I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again.  Although the theme of that sketch was about difficulties of travel in bygone times rather then hard living conditions, it still finished with the same "...and if you tell that to the young people today, they won't believe you..." line.  But even that version has a good degree of legitimacy, given that Cleese and Brooke-Taylor were both ISIRTA cast members, and Chapman wrote for the show as well.

 

Which anorak shop do you frequent?!!

 

Mike.

[Compound2632]

Which anorak shop do you frequent?!!

 

It'll be the one in the same low-rent side-street row as his local model shop.

[DavidB-AU]

"Plagiarised" is probably unfair.  The sketch was written for At Last the 1948 Show (which was broadcast in 1967 - the title was a joke) by Tim Brooke-Taylor, John Cleese, Graham Chapman and Marty Feldman (possibly with some input from Barry Cryer).  I suspect that Cleese and Chapman may have some authorial rights to it.  It wasn't used in any of the Python TV shows, only performed in their live shows.  Although there was some variation between the live performances - not at all unusual for live performers, plenty of musicians have 'adapted' their own songs over time - they kept very close to the basic "Four Yorkshiremen" theme.

There was a lot of crossover in the "Oxbridge Mafia" actors and writers in shows that started with Beyond The Fringe and ended with The Goodies. They usually fed off each other and versions of sketches and songs appeared in several shows. Nobody could accuse any of them of plagiarism. Maybe recycling.

 

The Class Sketch, originally from The Frost Report, was reworked several times in The Two Ronnies and finally in the BBC Millennium programme. Several sketches in How to Irritate People was reworked or even performed almost unchanged by Monty Python.

 

If you read the excellent book From Fringe to Flying Circus by Roger Wilmut you'll see just how much crossover there was.

 

Cheers

David

[Bomag]

Given that the youngest Mk1 is now 55+ years old, I don't think any problems with them can fairly be described as design weaknesses as such. That's really not a bad service life in anybody's book.

 

The oldest Mk 1 vehcile is apoximately 67 yerars old the youngest about 43. While they never fully solved the durability issues the basic design meant that we can carry on fixing them 

[New Haven Neil]

The west Clare walker diesels were only 5/6 years old when the last 3' gauge in Ireland closed. The isle of man railways tried to buy them, but CIE quoted them silly prices. After 7 years storage at inchicore they sold them for scrap, for far less than what the isle of man were offering. A shame as 3 diesels with the power and speed to haul passenger workings could've helped the Manx no end. I suspect a replica of the West Clare locos built today would be a lot cheaper and more useful than the hideous and non functional American diesel they've bought.

 

 

IIRC they were too big to fit through our bridges anyway!

[The Johnster]

Given that the youngest Mk1 is now 55+ years old, I don't think any problems with them can fairly be described as design weaknesses as such. That's really not a bad service life in anybody's book.

 

The mk1 proved very well designed in terms of longevity, but were compromised by the removal of the end steps that originally gave access to the toilet tanks for safety reasons connected with OHLE.  They were cut out and the holes plated over, but this allowed damp to enter the framework and rust problems ensued.  Even in this state many put in many years of reliable service, and they are still capable of meeting accident resistance requirements that were less strenuous when they were built.  

 

They were a very successful attempt to combine the best features of the best stock available at nationalisation, the Thompson and Bullied coaches, themselves evolved from ECJS practice going back pre-WW1; steel frames, steel body, strengthened bow ends, Pullman corridor connections, and buckeye couplers.  I won't hear a word against them!  It is to BR's credit that, having produced a superb design, they did not rest on their laurels but developed the Mk2 series only 15 years later.  I regard the air conditioned mk2s as the best loco hauled stock ever built for British use; first class was better than Pullman and the were the last design before the retrograde step of sticking seats in any old where instead of matching them to the windows, as good an indication of post-70's railway attitudes to their 'customers' as any...

[ejstubbs]

Which anorak shop do you frequent?!!

 

Mike.

 

I did try an anorak on once, but I found it a bit too daringly stylish for my taste.

Edited April 10, 2018 by ejstubbs

[Titan]

The mk1 proved very well designed in terms of longevity, but were compromised by the removal of the end steps that originally gave access to the toilet tanks for safety reasons connected with OHLE.  They were cut out and the holes plated over, but this allowed damp to enter the framework and rust problems ensued.  Even in this state many put in many years of reliable service, and they are still capable of meeting accident resistance requirements that were less strenuous when they were built.  

 

They were a very successful attempt to combine the best features of the best stock available at nationalisation, the Thompson and Bullied coaches, themselves evolved from ECJS practice going back pre-WW1; steel frames, steel body, strengthened bow ends, Pullman corridor connections, and buckeye couplers.  I won't hear a word against them!  It is to BR's credit that, having produced a superb design, they did not rest on their laurels but developed the Mk2 series only 15 years later.  I regard the air conditioned mk2s as the best loco hauled stock ever built for British use; first class was better than Pullman and the were the last design before the retrograde step of sticking seats in any old where instead of matching them to the windows, as good an indication of post-70's railway attitudes to their 'customers' as any...

 

I think the best loco hauled has to be the Mk3. However, my favourite is most definitely a Mk1 on Commonwealth bogies hurtling along at 100mph Deltic hauled...     

 

(With class 309 close second)

Edited April 10, 2018 by Titan

[coachmann]

The mk1 proved very well designed in terms of longevity, but were compromised by the removal of the end steps that originally gave access to the toilet tanks for safety reasons connected with OHLE.  They were cut out and the holes plated over, but this allowed damp to enter the framework and rust problems ensued.  Even in this state many put in many years of reliable service, and they are still capable of meeting accident resistance requirements that were less strenuous when they were built.  

 

They were a very successful attempt to combine the best features of the best stock available at nationalisation, the Thompson and Bullied coaches, themselves evolved from ECJS practice going back pre-WW1; steel frames, steel body, strengthened bow ends, Pullman corridor connections, and buckeye couplers.  I won't hear a word against them!  It is to BR's credit that, having produced a superb design, they did not rest on their laurels but developed the Mk2 series only 15 years later.  I regard the air conditioned mk2s as the best loco hauled stock ever built for British use; first class was better than Pullman and the were the last design before the retrograde step of sticking seats in any old where instead of matching them to the windows, as good an indication of post-70's railway attitudes to their 'customers' as any...

Mk.I's owed absolutely nothing to Thompson and Bullied coaches as far as construction was concerned. These and post-war GWR coaches continued to make much use of wood framing with steel cladding. Bullied was using more steel, but there remained much use of wood in the construction. The Thompsons were not particularly good coaches and the body design was weak due to the positioning of doors.

 

The LMS carried out experiments before the war with bridge type trussing in connection with articulated stock. The war put a stop to further construction. Just before Nationalization, the LMS produced the all-steel D2159 corridor composite with new body-side and roof profile. Lessons from this coach together with the LMS articulated underframes were worked into the design of the Mk.I coach, but with a bodyside profile more akin to the Bullied coach. 

[rodent279]

The mk1 proved very well designed in terms of longevity, but were compromised by the removal of the end steps that originally gave access to the toilet tanks for safety reasons connected with OHLE. They were cut out and the holes plated over, but this allowed damp to enter the framework and rust problems ensued. Even in this state many put in many years of reliable service, and they are still capable of meeting accident resistance requirements that were less strenuous when they were built.

 

They were a very successful attempt to combine the best features of the best stock available at nationalisation, the Thompson and Bullied coaches, themselves evolved from ECJS practice going back pre-WW1; steel frames, steel body, strengthened bow ends, Pullman corridor connections, and buckeye couplers. I won't hear a word against them! It is to BR's credit that, having produced a superb design, they did not rest on their laurels but developed the Mk2 series only 15 years later. I regard the air conditioned mk2s as the best loco hauled stock ever built for British use; first class was better than Pullman and the were the last design before the retrograde step of sticking seats in any old where instead of matching them to the windows, as good an indication of post-70's railway attitudes to their 'customers' as any...

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Nuff said.

[Ben Alder]

Downgraded Mk1 FO out of Inverness on the Highland Main line south in the single seat - doesn't get much better than that........

[newbryford]

Downgraded Mk1 FO out of Inverness on the Highland Main line south in the single seat - doesn't get much better than that........

 

Complete with a Griddle car next to it serving fried egg sandwiches.....

 

Just the thing after starting an 7 day All-Line Rover at 0008 from Preston a few hours earlier

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Wickham Green]

Mk.I's owed absolutely nothing to Thompson and Bullied coaches as far as construction was concerned. These and post-war GWR coaches continued to make much use of wood framing with steel cladding. Bullied was using more steel, but there remained much use of wood in the construction. The Thompsons were not particularly good coaches and the body design was weak due to the positioning of doors.

 

The LMS carried out experiments before the war with bridge type trussing in connection with articulated stock. The war put a stop to further construction. Just before Nationalization, the LMS produced the all-steel D2159 corridor composite with new body-side and roof profile. Lessons from this coach together with the LMS articulated underframes were worked into the design of the Mk.I coach, but with a bodyside profile more akin to the Bullied coach. 

It was only the relatively small numbers required that prevented Bulleid rolling out all-steel construction to his corridor stock - his electric vehicles probably outnumbered all other all-steel coaches at the time of nationalisation ...... and there were plenty more to follow !

[adanapress]

And the Wisbech & Upwell Tramway bogie coach, cut up 'by mistake' at Stratford,  or was that the one the film company used in 'The Titfield Thunderbolt', or was that the one

that has amazingly survived after being an agricultural store (God bless the NNR)    - funny that,  I thought there were only two such bogie coaches??

[The Johnster]

Mk.I's owed absolutely nothing to Thompson and Bullied coaches as far as construction was concerned. These and post-war GWR coaches continued to make much use of wood framing with steel cladding. Bullied was using more steel, but there remained much use of wood in the construction. The Thompsons were not particularly good coaches and the body design was weak due to the positioning of doors.

 

The LMS carried out experiments before the war with bridge type trussing in connection with articulated stock. The war put a stop to further construction. Just before Nationalization, the LMS produced the all-steel D2159 corridor composite with new body-side and roof profile. Lessons from this coach together with the LMS articulated underframes were worked into the design of the Mk.I coach, but with a bodyside profile more akin to the Bullied coach. 

 

I agree, and was not trying to infer this, but they did adopt the features I delineated which were very much derived from the Thompson and Bullieds, and the wooden bodied Gresleys before them.  Mk1s were a major advance on the Hawksworths, with thier screw couplers, and Staniers, with screw couplers and flat ends that harked back to the Midland's designs from the solebar downwards; both these types were still being built when the Mk1s came out.

 

If there was a weakness, it was the LMS derived B1 bogie, which hunted at high speeds.  Commonwealths and B4s solved this issue, and the ride at 100mph plus was rock steady.  The fastest run I ever had with one was behind a 50; the coach was B4 fitted and according to my watch sustained 114mph between Cholsey and Moulsford and Pangbourne.  The ride was excellent, though there was an unpleasant 'thrumming' of air pressure.  My experience of Bullieds in traffic is limited to preservation, but I am not impressed with the ride even at 25mph; it is probably ok on track maintained to high standards for high speed running but is very unforgiving of the lower standards typical of preserved lines.

[Classsix T]

Which anorak shop do you frequent?!!

 

Mike.

"The plumage don't even enter into it!"

 

(sorry, Vocational Guidance Counsellor is my favourite but that line and "Pinein' for the fjords!?" Crack me up every time.

I'm with the anorak, these are a bunch of industry mates getting together for a charity do, much like musicians do. Besides, Rowan Atkinson (then only publicly know for Not The Nine O'clock News) ripped apart Joyce Grenfell's act to do Public School Registration, at the same Secret Policeman's Ball, but given Rowan's talent for reading the 'phone book amusing, perhaps an obvious comedy vehicle. "ORIFICE!").

 

C6T.

[Wickham Green]

And the Wisbech & Upwell Tramway bogie coach, cut up 'by mistake' at Stratford,  or was that the one the film company used in 'The Titfield Thunderbolt', or was that the one

that has amazingly survived after being an agricultural store (God bless the NNR)    - funny that,  I thought there were only two such bogie coaches??

Sorry to get back somewhere near on topic - but has anyone mentioned the breaking-up of the L.T.& S. coach that was restored with 'Thundersley' ?

[locoholic]

It is about time that old story was put to sleep.

Please have a read of the book on the Waverley Route by David Spaven.

Unlike any previous work it contains extracts from official documents from TNA Kew that were not available until 35 years after closure.

These documents at last reveal the true nature of the exchanges between BURCo and BR.

How do I know?

If you read the book you will see my name quoted as the source of this information.

Having spent many hours at Kew researching the true story, I am not too pleased to read nonsense doing the rounds yet again.

Just one quote from the book.

The recently unearthed archive evidence-contrary to the received wisdom over the last four decades-does not therefore suggest that the finger can be pointed at BR as a key factor in the demise of BURCo.

If you want details then get hold of the correspondence between JM Howieson and JH McGuiness. 

Bernard

I took a sneaky peek at the above mentioned book a couple of days ago. I couldn't find anything that varied too radically from the commonly held version of events. The Waverley route is long, BR wanted a lot of money for the line and access to Carlisle and Edinburgh, the BUR couldn't secure funding, BR lost patience, the local authorities decided that local road improvement schemes would be cheaper if some sections of trackbed were used, end of story. Those campaigning to retain the line probably should have concentrated on the Hawick - Edinburgh section, BR wouldn't countenance anything post-closure that might have questioned the decision to close the line (such as running special trains), the Scottish Office weren't bothered as there was no perceived political gain from keeping all or part of the line open.

 

Fast forward to the 21st century, and it is clear that the closure, at least of the line north of Hawick, was wrong, but hindsight is a wonderful thing...

[E3109]

As much as I loved BR it certainly wasn't without its faults.

We need a unified railway for sure, if only to reinstate the command structure we had before because as it is, all we ended up with is various factions with vested interests kicking off with each other in a multitude of control rooms.

 

Doesn't matter if it's public or privately owned, when overall control was lost it all went a bit FUBAR and we need railway people in charge rather than lawyers acting on behalf of the operators.

 

Obviously in 1969 BR didn't want to be embarrassed by a private upstart.

It's been mentioned before that people who cared about the route were happy to put their money where their mouth is, acquiring NBL class 29s and so on to run the service.

 

I imagine that one reason the Waverley Route was ripped up with indecent haste, is simply because BR didn't want to be shown up in a bad light by newcomers who, more than likely would've made a fine job of it.