Tornado fails on ECML

[4069]

If RAIB is involved, as I believe is the case, then there will be an embargo on non-involved parties, ie you and me, being informed of the outcome of their enquiries until the report is published. The loco owners and NR will be kept in the picture to the extent that RAIB judges they need to be, and will be allowed to see the draft report pre-publication, but not to reveal its contents. RAIB reports are legally sub-judicatory until formally published and any public comment before then on the investigation or the report is an offence.

 

Jim

RAIB is not carrying out an investigation into this incident- if we were, it would be listed on our website at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raib-current-investigations-register/rail-accident-investigation-branch-current-investigations . As mentioned earlier in this thread, we have asked for a copy of the industry's investigation report when it is complete.

 

While our draft reports are indeed confidential until they are published, there is nothing to prevent anyone from carrying out their own investigation into any incident or accident involving their business (and railway undertakings with a safety management system have a duty to investigate), and publishing the results: see for instance this report https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/download/5cc04fabf4a84e81bc4e4e7c9008e7ba into an incident involving stranded trains in icy weather, which has recently been published while the RAIB investigation https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stranding-of-trains-and-self-detrainments-at-lewisham is still in progress.

 

Stuart J

RAIB

Edited August 25, 2018 by 4069

[AndyID]

This is getting incredibly silly (but I like it.)

 

My objection was that the A1 Trust was happy to put out bulletins describing the fixes to Tornado, BUT THEY NEVER DESCRIBED WHAT CAUSED THE FAILURE.

 

I'm just a stupid engineer, but I've never run into a situation where a problem was resolved without understanding what caused the problem.

 

Please excuse me for being so thick

[Mallard60022]

Andy you are not being thick. There was informal description of the actual failure of parts and we all believe it was lube related to the piston valves. What the actual cause of the lube related fault was is still under investigation/to be confirmed from what I gather and what's the point of speculation when they have not yet confirmed the cause beyond doubt? Of course they might never be able to confirm the actual cause as the offending carp in the oil, or offending series of 'events' may never be truly found as all might well have been destroyed, burned, lost in the event. 

let's just leave it at that and await the return of the machine in all its' glory, but maybe not at such high speed on the ECML.

Phil (a spit from the ECML)

Edited August 26, 2018 by Mallard60022

[john new]

I am fairly sure I have read somewhere a comment (But now can't remember where, or even if it was from A1SLT official/accidental info' leak or mere speculation) that alignment of a bore was a discovered issue. If that is the case, as I alluded to in my earlier post, there will be behind the scenes issues that could be prejudiced by open forum discussions.

 

Only a personal view but I can't understand the fuss over this, there have been fatal railway accidents since before the Battle of Waterloo (the boiler explosion of 1815 at Newbottle IIRC); lessons get learned and life moves on, but incrementally more safely. At some point in the future we may find out more than has been already released and this is already quite a lot more than I expected. However, surely it won't be the end of the world if we, as mere enthusiasts, don't ever find out who was to blame (if it is down to human error) provided those responsible for safety know the full what and why and there are appropriate safeguards put in place.

Edited August 26, 2018 by john new

[stewartingram]

I seem to recall within the past week or so, that a 47 failed down south somewhere, and was replaced by a 33. So why no "facebook" type enquiry clamouring for details?

 

Stewart

[rab]

How were conspirarcy theories generated

before we had social media???

[phil-b259]

I seem to recall within the past week or so, that a 47 failed down south somewhere, and was replaced by a 33. So why no "facebook" type enquiry clamouring for details?

 

Stewart

 

To be fair that was merely a case of the engine kept shutting down in a siding , not the engine flinging bits of piston / connecting rods / etc everywhere at 90mph.

 

However I do understand (and agree) with what you are getting at in making the analogy

Edited August 26, 2018 by phil-b259

[tigerburnie]

I spent many a year doing root cause analysis after equipment failures in engineering, it is not always possible to get a definitive answer to the "5 Whys?", sometimes you add better procedure to reduce the risk as is done in standard risk assessment procedures.

[jjb1970]

I seem to recall within the past week or so, that a 47 failed down south somewhere, and was replaced by a 33. So why no "facebook" type enquiry clamouring for details?

 

Stewart

In the case of a class 47 it'd be more newsworthy if it didn't break down.....I'll be on the naughty step for that one.

Edited August 26, 2018 by jjb1970

[jjb1970]

How were conspirarcy theories generated

before we had social media???

 

That depended on whether or not you wore a tin foil hat and your choice of newspaper.

[stewartingram]

To be fair that was merely a case of the engine kept shutting down in a siding , not the engine flinging bits of piston / connecting rods / etc everywhere at 90mph.

 

However I do understand (and agree) with what you are getting at in making the analogy

To be pedantic, we don't know why the engine shut down, it could  have put a piston through the block....

 

Stewart

[phil-b259]

To be pedantic, we don't know why the engine shut down, it could  have put a piston through the block....

 

Stewart

 

Unlikely in this case as there are references to several a tempts being made, plus a shattered engine block tends to make a fair bit of a mess to the outside of locos due to the consequent fluid leaks. The impression is that the 47 suffered some form of electrical contactor / sensor issue which kept killing the engine after a minute or two of it being started up.

[Colin_McLeod]

How were conspirarcy theories generated

before we had social media???

 

 

 

 

That depended on whether or not you wore a tin foil hat and your choice of newspaper.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=weekly+world+news&client=ms-android-h3g-ie&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3nKnbrIvdAhULB8AKHX8cAcEQ_AUIESgB&biw=360&bih=560

[rockershovel]

How were conspirarcy theories generated

before we had social media???

Oh, I don’t know... they seemed to manage ok. Russian soldiers with snow on their boots, anyone?

[Gibbo675]

Oh, I don’t know... they seemed to manage ok. Russian soldiers with snow on their boots, anyone?

Hi There,

 

The origin of the term "Conspiracy Theory" emerged from the Warren Commission which was set up to investigate who shot JFK, in that anyone that questioned the reports findings, that the shooter was Lee Harvey Oswald, was termed a Conspiracy Theorist.

 

The term is now generally used to close down discussion of sensitive topics by the subjecting anyone asking questions to ridicule.

 

The same goes for political correctness which was derived from Saul Alinsky's work, Rules for Radicals and subjects those that put foreward their own thoughts instead of Orwellian style "Group Think" as bigots.

 

As a rhetorical point I should remark that, should I be subject to either ridicule or accusation of bigotry for any of the above I shall smile inwardly !!!

 

They wouldn't lie to us, would they !?!?!?!

 

Gibbo.

[Reorte]

The term is now generally used to close down discussion of sensitive topics by the subjecting anyone asking questions to ridicule.

 

More often it's used to point out when people are coming up with absurd far-fetched ideas that shouldn't be taken seriously. They generally have no evidence to support them and rely on filling the gaps we do know with questionable explanations - "it must be aliens!", that sort of thing. What else would you say to (and please note that this is purely something I've invented on the spot for the sake of example, not something I believe in the slightest) the idea that Tornado's failure was caused by sabotage from a group who doesn't want mainline steam?

[rockershovel]

Hi There,

 

The origin of the term "Conspiracy Theory" emerged from the Warren Commission which was set up to investigate who shot JFK, in that anyone that questioned the reports findings, that the shooter was Lee Harvey Oswald, was termed a Conspiracy Theorist.

 

The term is now generally used to close down discussion of sensitive topics by the subjecting anyone asking questions to ridicule.

 

The same goes for political correctness which was derived from Saul Alinsky's work, Rules for Radicals and subjects those that put foreward their own thoughts instead of Orwellian style "Group Think" as bigots.

 

As a rhetorical point I should remark that, should I be subject to either ridicule or accusation of bigotry for any of the above I shall smile inwardly !!!

 

They wouldn't lie to us, would they !?!?!?!

 

Gibbo.

I would suggest that rather than Alinsky, “political correctness” derives from the work of Walter Benjamin and subsequently, Georg Lukacs. Alinsky was a radical, but a uniquely American version who believed in the US Constitution and believed that properly implemented, it was a powerful safeguard.

[AndyID]

NR is not a model railway.

 

It's fortunate that the the valve gear failed on the inside cylinder. A similar failure on the right-hand cylinder could have had much more severe consequences. I'm sure NR will take that into account.

 

I hope the A1 Trust does have conclusive evidence that explains the cause of the failure, along with appropriate remedial actions. Putting it down to "just one of those things" might have been almost acceptable in 1918 but it's not going to be acceptable in 2018.

[rockershovel]

I spent many a year doing root cause analysis after equipment failures in engineering, it is not always possible to get a definitive answer to the "5 Whys?", sometimes you add better procedure to reduce the risk as is done in standard risk assessment procedures.

Well, exactly. In the case of the Class 47 mentioned above, 500-odd of these were built in the 1960s (having been rushed into production without proper testing) and around 80 of them are still in service after various upgrades over time. Their design life was probably between 15-25 years. The chances of this long-lived, ubiquitous and hard-worked class giving a certain amount of trouble at this late stage are virtually 100%

 

Also, “5 Why’s” works least well in situations arising from the combination of several low-order causes, where “better procedure” can address root causes without specifically identifying them.

[Gibbo675]

I would suggest that rather than Alinsky, “political correctness” derives from the work of Walter Benjamin and subsequently, Georg Lukacs. Alinsky was a radical, but a uniquely American version who believed in the US Constitution and believed that properly implemented, it was a powerful safeguard.

Cheers for that, I shall have a read up on the information some time.

 

Did you know that the term Red Pill / Blue Pill comes from an art work by Rudolf Steiner who was a member of the Theosophical Society and founder of Anthroposphical Society. The red and blue pillars represents the oxygenated and carbonated blood of human evolution.

 

Gibbo.

[jim.snowdon]

NR is not a model railway.

 

It's fortunate that the the valve gear failed on the inside cylinder. A similar failure on the right-hand cylinder could have had much more severe consequences. I'm sure NR will take that into account.

 

I hope the A1 Trust does have conclusive evidence that explains the cause of the failure, along with appropriate remedial actions. Putting it down to "just one of those things" might have been almost acceptable in 1918 but it's not going to be acceptable in 2018.

They may not. Tornado is not a model either, and when things on that scale break, the subsequent destruction can easily obliterate the evidence of the original failure. It then becomes a matter of applying engineering expertise and experience to deduce the most likely cause, or causes, and work out a course of action that will reduce the risk of a recurrence. NR and other responsible parties will bas their responses on the diligence with which that process has been undertaken.

 

Jim

[ejstubbs]

Did you know that the term Red Pill / Blue Pill comes from an art work by Rudolf Steiner who was a member of the Theosophical Society and founder of Anthroposphical Society.

 

I think it's more accurate to say that some people have forged a link between the picture and pills in The Matrix.  The Wachowskis had all the lead actors read Simulacra and Simulation by Jean Baudrillard, Out of Control by Kevin Kelly, and Introducing Evolutionary Psychology by Dylan Evans and Oscar Zarate in order to better understand the world of the movie.  Nothing relating to Steiner or either (any?) of his philosophical beliefs.

 

The Anthroposophical Society's first founding principle is "to be an association of people whose will it is to nurture the life of the soul, both in the individual and in human society, on the basis of a true knowledge of the spiritual world."  Which to me makes them sound significantly more distanced from reality than Theosophical Society (which, despite stating in its constitution that: "The Theosophical Society is absolutely unsectarian, and no assent to any formula of belief, faith or creed shall be required as a qualification of membership; but every applicant and member must lie in sympathy with the effort to create the nucleus of an Universal Brotherhood of Humanity" has experienced a number of schisms in its 143 years of existence, of which the Anthroposophical Society was one.)

 

Quite what these (IMO) bizarre organisations have to do with the origins of the concepts of conspiracy theories and political correctness is difficult to discern.

 

the oxygenated and carbonated blood of human evolution.

 

This is meaningless nonsense, but apparently it is what Steiner intended to depict.  Nuff said, really...

Edited August 28, 2018 by ejstubbs

[ejstubbs]

The origin of the term "Conspiracy Theory" emerged from the Warren Commission which was set up to investigate who shot JFK, in that anyone that questioned the reports findings, that the shooter was Lee Harvey Oswald, was termed a Conspiracy Theorist.

 

Nope.  The OED cites a 1909 article as the earliest use of the term, though earlier examples are known to exist.  Even the suggestion that the derogatory sense of the term only emerged following the Kennedy assassination seems to be highly dubious.

 

The same goes for political correctness which was derived from Saul Alinsky's work, Rules for Radicals and subjects those that put foreward their own thoughts instead of Orwellian style "Group Think" as bigots.

 

Again, there is good evidence that the term pre-dates the the publication of Alinsky's book in 1971 by a significant margin.  For example (although at the risk of invoking Godwin's Law): in 1934, The New York Times reported that Nazi Germany was granting reporting permits "only to pure 'Aryans' whose opinions are politically correct." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#Early-to-mid_20th_century). The mass popularisation of the term has been traced back to another New York Times article, by Richard Bernstein in October 1990.

[Oldddudders]

Crikey.

[tigerburnie]

https://www.a1steam.com/category/news/

If it's due to haul passengers in a months time, I would presume they must be almost ready to run again with some testing on the NVR?