NRM rebranding - Railway Museum

[durham light infantry]

I just don't see the restoration of Scotsman to main line condition as a core priority for the NRM when budgets are at a standstill,

Aww, bless. You actually think the budget has stayed the same for the last 8 years.

 

Mike

[Bernard Lamb]

I was working in the sector at the time of Wedgwood and I can assure you it struck a note of shocked terror into the hearts of most of us.

 

For those who don’t know, it was a case of unintended legislative consequences: the post-Maxwell pension laws were designed to protect pensioners when companies went bust, giving them precedence over most other creditors. The tiny Wedgwood Museum was an independent charity but with close historic links to the company. When the company went bust, the museum was held to be liable for the entire remaining pension fund deficit of the company, because a handful of their staff were also members of the company pension scheme.

 

It was obviously “unfair”: it forced the museum into bankruptcy and its historic collection had to be flogged-off (all this pain reduced the pension fund deficit by a tiny amount). The staff were all sacked. The wretched government of the day refused to intervene to help preserve the collection.

 

Other than being careful about who you get into bed with, I don’t think there were wider lessons from the Wedgwood debacle. I can’t think of another relevant case.

 

Which leads me to think that collections held by independent charities are not more at risk than those held by NDPBs (if you think the latter are not at risk, remember the “deaccessioning” of parts of the historic newspaper collections of The British Library). Aren’t some RMwebbers already exercised over similar disposals from the NRM collections (NRM/SMG already being, as you point out, an NDPB).

 

Paul

 

That is just about the biggest load of crap that I have read in a long time.

I would love to put you right but I fear that would be straying too far into politics.

Bernard. Writing as one who lost his pension and campaigned for five years to get compensation and had several suggestions incorporated into the legislation and who until his dying day will remain thankful for that wretched government, who put their hands up when they got it wrong and decided to pay most of my lost pension out of taxation. 

[Fenman]

That is just about the biggest load of crap that I have read in a long time.

I would love to put you right but I fear that would be straying too far into politics.

Bernard. Writing as one who lost his pension and campaigned for five years to get compensation and had several suggestions incorporated into the legislation and who until his dying day will remain thankful for that wretched government, who put their hands up when they got it wrong and decided to pay most of my lost pension out of taxation. 

 

I do wish you would put me right. Though for the avoidance of doubt obviously I don't think pensioners should be cheated out of their pensions. It strikes me as a good use of public money to guarantee workplace pensions - not least so that we are all encouraged to invest with confidence. Because if we think there's a sporting chance we're going to lose all the money anyway, why would anyone invest in such schemes?

 

All of which is a long way away from what is fair to everyone - including an innocent museum which was trying to preserve a significant part of the nation's heritage.

 

Paul

[t-b-g]

As it happens I don't think the NRM needs any sort of "ambassador", as I still contend that I cannot see Scotsman attracting many extra people to York or Shildon by scooting past on the main line or turning up at the SVR. Frankly the NRM could have stuffed and mounted it, and probably generated just as many new customers to it's site, and satisfied it's role as guardian of the National Collection. I'm sure "Tornado" generates a lot of income for heritage railways it visits, as does Thomas the Tank Engine in spite of seriously offensive licence fees being charged by the rights owners, but neither of them require the management input of a publicly funded educational charity.I just don't see the restoration of Scotsman to main line condition as a core priority for the NRM when budgets are at a standstill, it's an irrelevance and a properly thought out advertising campaign would probably deliver more people across their threshold for a lot less. Which I suppose brings us back to the rebranding in a sort of way.For the avoidance of doubt, I was arguing that the repairs to the Elizabeth Tower are probably justified in terms of the tourist revenue generated. The point about hearing Big Ben was that is the name of the bell, so tourists don't technically stand looking at Big Ben as it is hidden in the tower.

That argument is well put but it assumes that all the NRM should be doing is increase its visitor numbers. Seeing a steam loco doing what it is designed to do is much more exciting to most people, including me, than seeing one stuffed and mounted. That is why, if I want a "fix" of steam, I go to a preserved railway rather than the NRM. They have (or rather had) a good number of stuffed and mounted locos at the NRM but the plan now seems to be to disperse them around the country in favour of a modern theme park.

 

What none of us know is what the net cost of Flying Scotsman has been, if you take into account the fees the NRM has received plus the revenue it has generated for railway heritage generally.

 

If the NRM hadn't spent the money on FS, it might have had enough in the kitty to go ahead with the truly awful scheme I saw some years back and out of the two, I know which I would have rather it be spent on. I suspect we won't agree on this and there is no reason why we should as it is down to personal choice but I am happy the FS is out there representing the first successful Pacific class in the country and as possibly the most famous steam loco there is.

[Edwardian]

It's the sort of unnecessary and utterly cretinous move that large organisations fall prey to from time to time.  

 

Worse, usually they pay some trendy external agency (in Ed Reardon-speak, 12-year olds) a small fortune for this sort of Emperor's New Clothes garbage.

 

The NRM has better things to devote its time and resources to than facile re-brands.

 

After the umpteenth person has condemned it as a completely stupid idea, they can always get some customer-relations cretin or PR popsy to announce that it was all about "starting a conversation" about how the National Collection is perceived in contemporary Britain, rather than admit it was a completely moronic thing to do and that everyone hated it.  

 

There, I feel much better. 

 

Time for the happy pills ....

[Steamport Southport]

That argument is well put but it assumes that all the NRM should be doing is increase its visitor numbers. Seeing a steam loco doing what it is designed to do is much more exciting to most people, including me, than seeing one stuffed and mounted. That is why, if I want a "fix" of steam, I go to a preserved railway rather than the NRM. They have (or rather had) a good number of stuffed and mounted locos at the NRM but the plan now seems to be to disperse them around the country in favour of a modern theme park.

 

What none of us know is what the net cost of Flying Scotsman has been, if you take into account the fees the NRM has received plus the revenue it has generated for railway heritage generally.

 

If the NRM hadn't spent the money on FS, it might have had enough in the kitty to go ahead with the truly awful scheme I saw some years back and out of the two, I know which I would have rather it be spent on. I suspect we won't agree on this and there is no reason why we should as it is down to personal choice but I am happy the FS is out there representing the first successful Pacific class in the country and as possibly the most famous steam loco there is.

 

We do know that is cost more than £4 million to buy and over £6 million to restore/repair. The vast majority of which was taxpayers money and money from the lottery which is meant for "good causes". I doubt that it would earn anything close to that if it worked constantly for the next hundred years.

 

 

Personally I would have left it in the private sector or even sold it to the Yanks. The thing has been a liability to at least four owners, financial as well as physically. I don't think Alan Pegler ever recovered and I reckon that Dr Marchington's health problems weren't helped by the stress of ownership.

 

 

Unfortunately people started to jump on the band wagon and started campaigns to save it. In which case they should have stuffed and mounted it. No use visiting the NRM to see it if it's stuffed in the back of a shed somewhere under repair.

 

If they wanted a working A1/A3 then they should have went down the Tornado route and they could have had one in which ever condition they wanted for a fraction of the cost. They could have even built a replica of a far more worthy locomotive Great Northern. Don't forget Flying Scotsman wasn't even deemed worth saving in the 1950s when people who were experts drew up a list of locomotives for a National Collection. If Great Northern was in original condition then it probably would have been saved.

 

 

Or they could have built a batch for the same price. Imagine going to your local station and seeing Robert The Devil, Captain Cuttle or Spion Kop.

 

Come on A1 people, you know it makes sense. After you've finished your current list of locomotives obviously.

 

 

 

Jason

[papagolfjuliet]

We could in fact have had two new ones. It cost twice as much to overhaul "Scotsman" as it did to build "Tornado."

[wombatofludham]

Aww, bless. You actually think the budget has stayed the same for the last 8 years.

 

Mike

The austerity program began in 2010 so yes budgets have been cut, with the exception of 2012 when there was a spike for Olympic expenditure the Department for Fun has had an average of a 20% real cut in income. According to Mendoza the DCMS grants to the Museums sector was £361m in 2010, £346m in 2011, £340 in 2012, £305m in 2013, £298m in 2014, £304m in 2015 and £345m in 2016. When other funding sources are taken into account, Mendoza suggests that budgets have remained more or less static and in real terms declined due to increased costs. All of which makes spending a lot of money on one celebrity artefact all the more difficult to justify

[t-b-g]

We do know that is cost more than £4 million to buy and over £6 million to restore/repair. The vast majority of which was taxpayers money and money from the lottery which is meant for "good causes". I doubt that it would earn anything close to that if it worked constantly for the next hundred years.

 

 

Personally I would have left it in the private sector or even sold it to the Yanks. The thing has been a liability to at least four owners, financial as well as physically. I don't think Alan Pegler ever recovered and I reckon that Dr Marchington's health problems weren't helped by the stress of ownership.

 

 

Unfortunately people started to jump on the band wagon and started campaigns to save it. In which case they should have stuffed and mounted it. No use visiting the NRM to see it if it's stuffed in the back of a shed somewhere under repair.

 

If they wanted a working A1/A3 then they should have went down the Tornado route and they could have had one in which ever condition they wanted for a fraction of the cost. They could have even built a replica of a far more worthy locomotive Great Northern. Don't forget Flying Scotsman wasn't even deemed worth saving in the 1950s when people who were experts drew up a list of locomotives for a National Collection. If Great Northern was in original condition then it probably would have been saved.

 

 

Or they could have built a batch for the same price. Imagine going to your local station and seeing Robert The Devil, Captain Cuttle or Spion Kop.

 

Come on A1 people, you know it makes sense. After you've finished your current list of locomotives obviously.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Can you really imagine a new build project raising millions to create a loco when a real one, perhaps the most famous loco in the world, already exists?

 

Tornado was only built because there were no originals of the class preserved. I haven't seen any main line new build project to create a new version of any loco that exists in preservation, so why do you think it would work in this case?

 

Now tell me how much Flying Scotsman as raised either directly for the museum or for other preservation projects and come up with the true net cost. I heard it boosted one railway's profits by over £100,000 in one week as every ticket on every train was sold. The catering establishments in the area had a field day too.

 

So please don't just quote the costs and ignore the income that has resulted from that money being spent. 

 

You sometimes need to step back and not look at a project in isolation to see its full benefit.

 

Wasn't much of the cost of the purchase by public donation anyway? People who were willing to put their hands in their pockets to keep the loco here and in the hands of the NRM. Do their wishes and views count for nothing? 

Edited May 11, 2018 by t-b-g

[Pacific231G]

How much of F*"ing S****man is actually original? In percentage, at a guess less than 10%. I'd be surprised if all its wheels are original, the boiler and large parts of the frames certainly aren't, the cylinders aren't-I'll bet the names and parts of the cabside and maybe the running plate are the only original parts.

Didn't it run with an A4 boiler for a while?

So in a single loco it's preserving a significantly larger proportion of our ralway heritage than we'd always supposed.  

 

I have to agree with t-b-g on this.

 If FS was almost entirely made up of completely new components then one might question its identity as a piece of heritage but even then it would be no different from an awful lot of preserved aircraft and probably a few ships as well. My personal view is that if something has had a continuous ongoing history  then it's the same something it was in the beginning even if a lot of it has over the years been replaced, just like you or I in fact. If it's just been rebuilt completely around a few components from an effectively deceased something then it's really more a reproduction.  

Edited May 11, 2018 by Pacific231G

[papagolfjuliet]

 

Wasn't much of the cost of the purchase by public donation anyway? People who were willing to put their hands in their pockets to keep the loco here and in the hands of the NRM. Do their wishes and views count for nothing? 

 

It's a long time ago and so I can't remember exactly what the public were asked to pay for. Was it to safeguard the engine and keep it in the country as a publicly owned national treasure, or was it to do all of that and also keep it running?

[Nimbus]

My friend has a full cabside panel off 76037, sadly cut off above the handrails so no windows.

Anyway, I informed him the other week that when I win the lottery I'll rebuild the rest of the missing parts, utilising his cabside panel, in return for half ownership in the 'rebuilt' loco.

 

Do you think 0.5% genuine EM1 DNA is enough to qualify? He he.

Well, the warbird preservation movement has done the equivalent with recovered Spitfire and Mosquito wrecks, and apparently only suffered gasps of admiration as a result!

 

The Nim.

[t-b-g]

It's a long time ago and so I can't remember exactly what the public were asked to pay for. Was it to safeguard the engine and keep it in the country as a publicly owned national treasure, or was it to do all of that and also keep it running?

 

I can't remember either! The appeals may have included references to what the future plans for the loco were but if they did, they passed me by.

[TomJ]

I’m going to speak up in favour of brand experts and rebranding etc. I have donned my tin hat!

At university I was involved in a society (of a religious nature but I hope this won’t upset the mods). We invited a brand consultant in to help us come up with a vision statement - a short sentence summing us up. What was really useful wasn’t just the finished statement but the difficult and challenging conversations that lead a slightly flat and drifting society to focus on who we were and what we wanted to say and do.

 

I was as sceptical as anyone before we started but afterwards realised it had been a very useful exercise. It did help us reboot our society.

[phil-b259]

As it happens I don't think the NRM needs any sort of "ambassador", as I still contend that I cannot see Scotsman attracting many extra people to York or Shildon by scooting past on the main line or turning up at the SVR. Frankly the NRM could have stuffed and mounted it, and probably generated just as many new customers to it's site, and satisfied it's role as guardian of the National Collection. I'm sure "Tornado" generates a lot of income for heritage railways it visits, as does Thomas the Tank Engine in spite of seriously offensive licence fees being charged by the rights owners, but neither of them require the management input of a publicly funded educational charity.

 

I just don't see the restoration of Scotsman to main line condition as a core priority for the NRM when budgets are at a standstill, it's an irrelevance and a properly thought out advertising campaign would probably deliver more people across their threshold for a lot less. Which I suppose brings us back to the rebranding in a sort of way.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I was arguing that the repairs to the Elizabeth Tower are probably justified in terms of the tourist revenue generated. The point about hearing Big Ben was that is the name of the bell, so tourists don't technically stand looking at Big Ben as it is hidden in the tower.

 

While I agree with this standpoint it should be remembered that returning the loco to steam (and mainline use) was a key part of the fundraising campaign undertaken by the NRM to raise funds to buy the thing for the nation in the first place*. As such there would have been quite a lot of recriminations in the media had the NRN simply turned round later on and said 'we have changed our minds and you will have to come to York to see it on static display.

 

* With Scotsman being sold on as part of a bankruptcy sale - in which the pressure is on to achieve maximum revenue for creditors, there was a fairly serious chance that a wealthy investor could snap the thing it up and take it overseas. Had the loco simply been bequeathed / donated to the NRM then it would have been a lot easier for the NRM to keep it as a static exhibit.

[phil-b259]

That is just about the biggest load of crap that I have read in a long time.

I would love to put you right but I fear that would be straying too far into politics.

Bernard. Writing as one who lost his pension and campaigned for five years to get compensation and had several suggestions incorporated into the legislation and who until his dying day will remain thankful for that wretched government, who put their hands up when they got it wrong and decided to pay most of my lost pension out of taxation. 

 

Which bits are wrong?

 

You can state facts - as in the Government did X, so and so did Y without getting personal about it or adding word to indicate approval or displease at the actions which occurred

[stewartingram]

I’m going to speak up in favour of brand experts and rebranding etc. I have donned my tin hat!

At university I was involved in a society (of a religious nature but I hope this won’t upset the mods). We invited a brand consultant in to help us come up with a vision statement - a short sentence summing us up. What was really useful wasn’t just the finished statement but the difficult and challenging conversations that lead a slightly flat and drifting society to focus on who we were and what we wanted to say and do.

 

I was as sceptical as anyone before we started but afterwards realised it had been a very useful exercise. It did help us reboot our society.

Oh dear!

consultant..vision statement..focus on..etc! All buzzwords to me, glad I'm now retired and don't have to suffer this any more!

 

Stewart

[APOLLO]

 

Considering the virtually countless £Billions our governments (of both colours) fritter away every year on multifarious matters, the purchase and restoration of Flying Scotsman was worth every single penny.

 

Brit15

[coachmann]

'Flying Scotsman' is the sum total of the A3 class, with a bit of A4 thrown in for good measure and as such is a large chunk of genuine history. The 'Peppercorn' A1 was made 'last year' and lacks a pedigree, if you get my meaning.  Some of the other 'new builds' will have history incorporated into them because they will be built around old parts. Even the locos we take for granted as being genuine oldies actually have brand new sheet metalwork which is why it looks so new. It is!  

 

Nostalgia still remains for me when I see heritage locos close up, but I know full well what is missing. In BR steam days, locos were half-heartedly rubbed down before another coat of paint was applied, and so the surface was quite 'orrible when seen at close quarters. This was especially so on smokebox doors which always showed signs of pitting and old flaking paint under the latest coat of black. That was what gave steam locos their character. In short, they looked old and historic. Most steam locos actually look almost brand new today no matter how old they are! But it has to be that way.

Edited May 11, 2018 by coachmann

[jjb1970]

Something to keep in mind is that the originality issue is also applicable to diesels, which undergo maintenance and overhaul through life, which includes swapping parts and components out.

Edited May 11, 2018 by jjb1970

[Zomboid]

With operational steam engines, I don't see any point to "originality". They are machines where the appeal is the theatre of them running. That needs to be preserved, at least as importantly as the special artifacts such as Mallard.

[E3109]

'Flying Scotsman' is the sum total of the A3 class, with a bit of A4 thrown in for good measure and as such is a large chunk of genuine history. The 'Peppercorn' A1 was made 'last year' and lacks a pedigree, if you get my meaning.  Some of the other 'new builds' will have history incorporated into them because they will be built around old parts. Even the locos we take for granted as being genuine oldies actually have brand new sheet metalwork which is why it looks so new. It is!  

 

Nostalgia still remains for me when I see heritage locos close up, but I know full well what is missing. In BR steam days, locos were half-heartedly rubbed down before another coat of paint was applied, and so the surface was quite 'orrible when seen at close quarters. This was especially so on smokebox doors which always showed signs of pitting and old flaking paint under the latest coat of black. That was what gave steam locos their character. In short, they looked old and historic. Most steam locos actually look almost brand new today no matter how old they are! But it has to be that way.

If only they were able to source an original handbrake lever from an A1, then it would be officially a 'rebuild'.

I heard this goes on!

Incidentally didn't the Baby Deltic guys acquire an original handbrake wheel or similar?

If so then the recreation becomes a rebuild in my book...

[rodent279]

Something to keep in mind is that the originality issue is also applicable to diesels, which undergo maintenance and overhaul through life, which includes swapping parts and components out.

I reckon my Morris Minor is about 40% original. New engine, wood, 3 new wings, some fairly substantial body welding, new wheels, telescopic dampers, disc brakes, seats.....I could go on.

 

So what? Ok it to you doesn't have the appeal or pedigree of FS, but to me it does.

 

As for new build A1/A3-I reckon there's mileage in that. Surely at least there's mileage in a new spare boiler for FS.

[blueeighties]

Management. Plain and simple. Over the years things have changed, and not for the better. The book department used to be fantastic, every visit resulted in a purchase. It's now been so watered down it's not worth looking. I know the model railway/trade fairs have recently been knocked on the head at Locomotion, for reasons unknown, they always seemed to be a very good draw for families. And all of this current rebranding with the inherent 'buzzwords' sadly seems common in all large corporations who have lost sight of core values and things that matter. All very sad.

[APOLLO]

It's quite clear to me.

 

The strategic aim is to standardise the infrastructures to drive down operating costs through supply based consolidation and leveraging group spend as well as exploiting best-in-class technologies and practices to provide robust, scaleable and agile services with excellent customer experience.

 

Marketing professional with experience of implementing integrated marketing communications to deliver a range of targeted campaigns. Brand development, delivery of direct marketing campaigns using online and offline channels, website content management, event management and developing relationships with external marketing and design agencies

 

Simple really. What bit of the above do you not understand ?

 

Brit15