NRM rebranding - Railway Museum

[APOLLO]

In 2000 I visited the (small but interesting) Railroad museums at Sacramento and the Nevada railway museum at Carson City. Speaking to staff at both, they had visited York and confessed that York was the finest railroad museum in the world, almost apologising for the size of their own. No matter, the Southern Pacific Cab Forward at Sacramento was mightily impressive, and we got to ride one of those "hand pumped" railcars at Carson City. Both museums are well worth a visit if you are over there.

 

Back to York. I took the family there just after the Japanese bullet train arrived. Great day out and even my wife was impressed. Last time I went was the Great Gathering and even then I was still impressed. Same with Shildon a few years ago - perhaps better than York, certainly as interesting.

 

So it's sad to read the above posts. I'm getting sick of all this politically correct management super hype we all haved rammed down our throat these days.

 

Developed by award-winning design company North, the new brand aims to bring a visual cohesion to the Science Museum Group whose five museums share an astonishingly diverse collection spanning science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine.

Illumination is a central feature of the new identity, explored both through the changing font weight in the new logo and the use of vibrant colour gradients elsewhere within the graphic language. For the Science Museum the illuminated font suggests change and progress; at the National Science and Media Museum, Bradford, it evokes the rise of technologies such as photography that manipulate our emotions with light; at the National Railway Museum, York, and Locomotion in Shildon, the approach could capture that visceral moment when a great plume of steam envelops onlookers as the Flying Scotsman thunders past at lightning speed;

And this gem from here     http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/16187250.National_Railway_Museum_s_revamp_hit_by___13m_funding_blow/

The news comes as the museum unveiled Britain’s first prototype Hyperloop pod, developed at the University of Edinburgh, as a sign of the organisation’s focus on the future. Hyperloop technology could one day see passengers travelling in pods at speeds of up to 650mph inside near-vacuum tubes. It would mean the journey between York and London could take just 20 minutes.

Yipee York to London in 20 minutes crammed in a pod !!!!  What utter shyte (pardon my French !!).

I took the family for down to London last summer hols. (via Pendolino - along with some fish from the garden pond to flush down the train toilet !!!!). We visited the Science Museum which though good is rapidly going downhill with the interactive drivel. The queue for the Natural History museum was a mile long so we visited the V&A across the road - now THAT is a museum, quite interesting and well worth a visit. I hope they don't spoil that.

By the way the Museum of Science & Industry at Manchester is very good and worth a visit for the railway fan. (well it was last year !!).

Brit15

[E3109]

That quote you pasted is missing only pivotal key buzzwords such as 'blue sky thinking', has David Brent taken over the NRM these days?

 

Ps fluorescent lamps fitted to my beloved 26020's marker lights.

Just plain wrong.

[4630]

I was going to comment but decided against it. I find myself suspicious of anything the NRM does these days. While we're discussing name changes, are we missing something bigger that's going on? 

 

 

I've been 'worried' about the NRM for several years and I say this as a reasonably frequent visitor both to York and the museum.

 

I feel that the whole approach at the museum these days lacks coherence; to me it's dissolved into just a series of separate 'sheds' full of mainly steam relics, linked by food & drink/retail outlets.  To say nothing of its unfortunate fixation with a certain steam locomotive.

 

With the exception of the Eurostar exhibit, it seems almost as though in the museum's eyes railway history stopped in 1968 with the end of steam on BR.  I also discount the Shinkansen as I fail to see why that is even in the museum.

 

Where's the story of the development of the HST and APT, and how the UK was a world leader in rail research & development??

......how 'modern' track has developed over the years to cope with todays high speed/tonnage railway??

......the development of signalling over say the last 60 years???

 

From a marketing perspective, I can probably understand why some form of re-branding might be both a positive move and money well spent now - but not what has been revealed so far and only if it's done in conjunction with remedying the museum's shortcomings.

 

And, sadly I don't see any of that in the material that the RM nee NRM has put out.  Which worries me even more.  Another regretable example of 'style over substance'.

Edited April 28, 2018 by 4630

[E3109]

Agreed with pretty much all of what you said there 4630, although I do think the Shinkansen is perhaps one of the best items in there.

I know it's got nowt to do with our railway but I must admit that I tend to migrate towards it when I go to the NRM.

[Titan]

It would have been better if they had gone the other way and renamed it the "International Railway Museum". Certainly more justifiable than a humble "Railway Museum"...

 

Would be cool to have an example of the second most powerful diesel locomotive in the world circa 1955 alongside DELTIC just to illustrate what an incredible achievement it was at the time.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Titan

[4630]

Agreed with pretty much all of what you said there 4630, although I do think the Shinkansen is perhaps one of the best items in there.

I know it's got nowt to do with our railway but I must admit that I tend to migrate towards it when I go to the NRM.

 

 

As a piece of railway technology, I agree with you E3109.  I don't have anything against the Shinkansen.  I suppose my beef really is, wouldn't one of the surviving APT vehicles have allowed a more UK relevant display on the development of high speed railway travel generally?     

Edited April 28, 2018 by 4630

[E3109]

Indeed. You could add to that, 10000/10001, 10201, An a multitude of steam locos as mentioned in another thread.

Plenty of suitable candidates that were sadly lost.

 

I suppose we have to make do with what we have and with ref to the JR car, I think I'm right in saying that it's one of the most popular exhibits in the NRM, with Joe Public at least and realistically, that's what matters. Us lot on here already love railways, so if the Shinkansen attracts yet more railway devotees then it has achieved its purpose.

[Steamport Southport]

Everyone who's ever worked in a museum knows what an open store is. The "shed somewhere" that you mentioned in your previous paragraph, which could be visited by those who wanted to: that's an open store. Probably little or no interpretation, few amenities, quite possibly limited access to some of the objects.

 

National Museums Liverpool (or NMGM as it was then) used to have the Large Objects Collection at Prince's Dock. That was an open store (although we had facilities for school parties to eat packed lunches, and a minimalist tea bar). My wife and I met when we were both working there.

 

Jim

 

Sorry. I was being facetious.

 

 

I just can't stand anyone using jargon at the best of times. But that was a press release to a local newspaper whose average reader is going to reply "what?". 

 

 

 

I remember the tranship sheds and Riverside Station well.

 

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

We, by which I mean the participant in RMWeb, are about the last people who any wise person would ask for an opinion on the NRM (RM), because we are all blinded by our love of the topic. We are too enthusiastic to be objective.

 

Trying to be objective, what is a national “subject” museum about?

 

- part repository of information and objects for genuine academic study;

 

- part means of education, with a primary target audience of children (adults will pursue a topic for themselves if their imagination is fired in childhood).

 

And, how ‘big’ are railways as a subject, when put alongside the myriad other subjects of technological progress in the past 200 years? Fairly big, but compared with telecommunications, electric power, the internal combustion engine, powered flight, industrial chemistry, mass production machinery, etc etc etc, not, on its own, gigantic.

 

What I’m rambling on about is the need to get a bit of perspective into this, to separate a proportionate record from the vast quantities of old junk and old paperwork that we’ve been too sentimental to let go of, especially since the 1960s, and especially to separate what is of genuinely lasting importance from ‘the preservation movement’, which, when stripped back to the bone is largely a lot of old blokes pursuing their hobbies (no harm, and a huge amount of good, in that, but don’t let's kid ourselves that it is a great deal more).

 

We are the 1% (wild guesstimate), but it’s whats important to the 99% that matters.

 

And, last time I went there, I came away with two impressions: the displays were a bit sad, neglected and uninspiring, and certainly wouldn’t have “grabbed”, or even taught a huge amount to, the 99%; and, the cafe was the best thing there, if a tad “London priced”, and that actually is important to the 99%, along with the quality of the toilets (ask any woman what makes or mars a venue, and the cafe and the loos will figure higher than whatever the actual topic of the place is!).

 

That having been said (ranted), I don’t “get” the dropping of “national”. Either it is the nation’s central repository and centre of education for the topic, or it isn’t. And, if it isn’t, where is?

 

I stand (well crouch defensively) ready for incoming fire.

 

Kevin

Edited April 28, 2018 by Nearholmer

[brack]

The shinkansen was a gift from jr I think, and I think is important in telling the progression of passenger rail designs. The APT is fascinating, but given it was unsuccessful (for many reasons) perhaps its less important than a HST.

I'd like to see the stationy bit have a loco and coach (that you can go in and sit on the seats) from each era side by side from 1825 to the HST/mk3. To do that you'd probably need to get shot of the vast surplus of (admittedly nice, but not very representative of what people actually travelled in) royal coaches - offer the lot to bressingham as a swap for their garratt?

[Steamport Southport]

I've been 'worried' about the NRM for several years and I say this as a reasonably frequent visitor both to York and the museum.

 

I feel that the whole approach at the museum these days lacks coherence; to me it's dissolved into just a series of separate 'sheds' full of mainly steam relics, linked by food & drink/retail outlets.  To say nothing of its unfortunate fixation with a certain steam locomotive.

 

With the exception of the Eurostar exhibit, it seems almost as though in the museum's eyes railway history stopped in 1968 with the end of steam on BR.  I also discount the Shinkansen as I fail to see why that is even in the museum.

 

Where's the story of the development of the HST and APT, and how the UK was a world leader in rail research & development??

......how 'modern' track has developed over the years to cope with todays high speed/tonnage railway??

......the development of signalling over say the last 60 years???

 

From a marketing perspective, I can probably understand why some form of re-branding might be both a positive move and money well spent now - but not what has been revealed so far and only if it's done in conjunction with remedying the museum's shortcomings.

 

And, sadly I don't see any of that in the material that the RM nee NRM has put out.  Which worries me even more.  Another regretable example of 'style over substance'.

 

In a way that was what I meant about all the major exhibits should be in York. The APT-E and prototype HST used to be on display. As should be all the record breakers from Rocket onwards, through the Races To The North, City Of Truro and Mallard right up to the Bullet Train.

 

How can you tell a story if the main parts of the story are not even present?

 

 

Jason

[Sir Hadyn]

I'm less worried about the NRM than I was 5 years ago

 

There are plans, plans to tell a coherent, relevant story and bring in objects that are relevant and important.

 

Stick with it, regretting the past is easy, looking to the future is the challenge.

 

Yes I work there, yes I like railways - and believe it or not, so do many of my colleagues. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Sir Hadyn

[wombatofludham]

We, by which I mean the participant in RMWeb, are about the last people who any wise person would ask for an opinion on the NRM (RM), because we are all blinded by our love of the topic. We are too enthusiastic to be objective.

 

Trying to be objective, what is a national “subject” museum about?

 

- part repository of information and objects for genuine academic study;

 

- part means of education, with a primary target audience of children (adults will pursue a topic for themselves if their imagination is fired in childhood).

 

Kevin

For me, looking objectively, I wholeheartedly agree, but my view is that the NRM is falling short of the educational aspect and is neglecting some aspects of the repository job, as can be witnessed by the poor condition of some of it's non-steam artefacts. It seems to be too keen to pander to public preconception that the National Railway Museum is all about steam, instead of using it's educational remit to bring to the attention of the great unwashed that there is more to railways than bloody Thomas and Flying Jockstrap, and that for example electric traction is almost as old as steam and has probably shifted more bums on seats than steam ever did, and to try and bring home the reality and importance of railways today as well as in the past. There is a fine line between "infotainment" necessary to keep the attention-span deficit generation engaged, and seeing yourself as a publicly funded branch of Disney, but I'm not convinced that the boundary is in the right place currently.

[Sir Hadyn]

Poor condition of non-steam artefacts? We're restoring the 2HAP, got plans for the 306, all the diesels are presentable, and four are now on display in the Great Hall Triangle area. The Freightliner outer was restored two years ago and we've just collected HSFV1. The 71 is going into Shildon workshops very soon...we're working hard on the collection.

[jjb1970]

We, by which I mean the participant in RMWeb, are about the last people who any wise person would ask for an opinion on the NRM (RM), because we are all blinded by our love of the topic. We are too enthusiastic to be objective.

 

Trying to be objective, what is a national “subject” museum about?

 

- part repository of information and objects for genuine academic study;

 

- part means of education, with a primary target audience of children (adults will pursue a topic for themselves if their imagination is fired in childhood).

 

And, how ‘big’ are railways as a subject, when put alongside the myriad other subjects of technological progress in the past 200 years? Fairly big, but compared with telecommunications, electric power, the internal combustion engine, powered flight, industrial chemistry, mass production machinery, etc etc etc, not, on its own, gigantic.

 

What I’m rambling on about is the need to get a bit of perspective into this, to separate a proportionate record from the vast quantities of old junk and old paperwork that we’ve been too sentimental to let go of, especially since the 1960s, and especially to separate what is of genuinely lasting importance from ‘the preservation movement’, which, when stripped back to the bone is largely a lot of old blokes pursuing their hobbies (no harm, and a huge amount of good, in that, but don’t let's kid ourselves that it is a great deal more).

 

We are the 1% (wild guesstimate), but it’s whats important to the 99% that matters.

 

And, last time I went there, I came away with two impressions: the displays were a bit sad, neglected and uninspiring, and certainly wouldn’t have “grabbed”, or even taught a huge amount to, the 99%; and, the cafe was the best thing there, if a tad “London priced”, and that actually is important to the 99%, along with the quality of the toilets (ask any woman what makes or mars a venue, and the cafe and the loos will figure higher than whatever the actual topic of the place is!).

 

That having been said (ranted), I don’t “get” the dropping of “national”. Either it is the nation’s central repository and centre of education for the topic, or it isn’t. And, if it isn’t, where is?

 

I stand (well crouch defensively) ready for incoming fire.

 

Kevin

 

I think you make many good points there. We like to think museums are about education, preserving heritage and lofty ideals but the reality is that for most people it is just an enjoyable day out to see something they'll find interesting and enjoy. And if that more general market stops walking through the doors then funding won't be far behind in leaving. Hence crowd pleasers are important regardless of what the more serious minded enthusiasts might think about them.

 

At the risk of upsetting everybody, very little of the stuff we cling onto, including in museums, has genuine historical significance. How many Stephenson engines do you really need to tell the story of the steam locomotive? Technically they're all pretty much variations on a theme, will future generations see it as essential to try and preserve examples of every model of every car manufacturer, I mean even most car enthusiasts would admit that cars are pretty much the same in terms of what they are. Or maybe as an engineer I just look at these things as the equivalent of so much meat, as much as I love trains and engines (I'm much more of an engine enthusiast than train enthusiast in many ways) I'm not really into imagining that machines have a soul or anything.

 

If the NRM offers a rail equivalent of Disney land for those who aren't true rail enthusiasts then I don't see anything wrong with that if it provides an experience most visitors enjoy, provided it also looks after the archives and makes those accessible to students etc.

 

On the rebrand, I actually like the new image (although I'd have kept the NRM title) and it looks pretty good. My concern is that it isn't that long ago we saw a lot of scare stories about the ruinous effects of austerity, as far as I'm concerned if they have the cash to fund a corporate rebranding exercise then I hope we've heard the last of any whinging about funding the museum.

[Fenman]

...

The same think has happened to another famous institution, the short title of which is The Royal Society of Arts. Its full and proper title is the Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts , Manufactures and Commerce.

...

 

C.P.Snow's "Two Cultures" lives on and it is not engineers and scientists who are winning it.

 

That’s a bit partial, if I may say so.

 

When the RSA (sic) was founded in 1754, “arts” did not exclusively mean fine or performing arts, as it pretty much does today. The meaning was closer to the word “skills” (that archaic meaning still, just, survives in phrases like “the art of living” - which don’t make much sense if you construe them as, eg, “the oil painting of living”).

 

Which is why when the RSA was set up it was encouraging drawing skills as a foundation of engineering (artistic drawing skills were quickly hived off into a separate institution - The Royal Academy of Arts). One of its most famous initiatives directly related to skills was the RSA Examinations Board (now hived off by government fiat and part of the giant OCR group - Oxford Cambridge & RSA examinations).

 

The RSA has been known by the shortened form of its name since the 18th century: if you go to the building designed for them by the Adam Brothers in the 1770s, you’ll see “Society of Arts” is the name in stone over the door (it only became “Royal” in the early 19-somethings).

 

I stopped having much to do with it about a decade ago, but at that time it was still one of the broadest think-tanks in the country, supporting projects ranging from education to the environment (the first recorded UK use of the word “green” in an environmental sense was in the RSA Journal).

 

Sorry for going a bit OT, but I had to correct what appeared to be an attempt to cite the RSA as proof that “the arts” were taking precedence over science and technology.

 

Paul

[Andy Y]

as far as I'm concerned if they have the cash to fund a corporate rebranding exercise then I hope we've heard the last of any whinging about funding the museum.

That may have been a valid point if they hadn't had the misfortune to implement this in the same week that they announce there's a £13m sized hole in their bucket.

[Nearholmer]

Wombat

 

I’m with you: I definitely sensed an air of neglect beyond the perimeter of the cafe, or perhaps a sense of spreading the jam too thinly beyond the scones, and not only in the case of the “modern” traction.

 

Electric traction is a bit of a passion of mine, but as I said in the Coventry electric railway museum thread, I realise that it is a ‘difficult sell’, and is actually quite well catered for already if you know where to look (Volks, Crich, LT Museum). It certainly merits a strong mention at York, though.

 

All in all, I think the LT Museum tells it’s story better, on a much smaller footprint, and although the way it does it probably doesn’t appeal to hardened gricers it certainly works for kids.

 

It’s not that the NRM team doesn’t do good things, it’s that the place was more a ‘communal attic’ than an effective educational tool, right from the start. If what is gradually happening is a transformation to make it the latter, then that is a good thing, even if it does involve putting some of the contents on ebay (well, passing them out of the national collection to other venues), to make room for vital inclusions.

 

K

[phil-b259]

The National Museums generally started charging at some point, then (early 2000s?) went free again, though they kept the ticket desks and you still had to queue up and not pay, rather than just wandering in which is how I recall them being before charging started. (And you could walk between the Natural History and Science Museums without going outside).

 

I say "generally" because so far as I know the museum of film, photography and television in Bradford (now the National Science and Media Museum) never charged for some reason.

 

Charging happened because the Conservative Government of the 1990s demanded it happen so as to reduce the 'financial burden' on the Treasuary. No enterance charges = no grant from the relevant Government department.

 

 

Free access was restored by the incoming Labour government shortly after they won in 1997 - helped by the availability of lottery money which meant it was 'cost neutral' to HMG. They also did a complete about change and made free access mandatory for any museum wishing to recieved a Government funding....

 

 

Put simply the Science museum group do not have the power to charge an enterance fee - they can only follow what the politicians tell them to.....

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The Royal Train Museum, to be opened by Megan Markle. That covers about every base.....

[coachmann]

The National Railway Museum sounds like a nationalized concern. The Railway Museum would be more in tune with privatization. 

[t-b-g]

I have mentioned this before but some 10 years ago I was asked to complete a survey on a visit to the NRM. It was all about the direction the museum should take for the future. Their "preferred option" was to remove all the tracks round the turntable and replace the exhibits in that area with interactive boxes so that youngsters could sit inside the boxes and experience what it was like to be a parcel in a box van and suchlike.

 

I felt sorry for the young bloke asking me the questions. He got both barrels. When I said that the area was one of a tiny number of surviving roundhouse loco sheds and that if they wanted to spend money on it they should make it look like a real loco shed, his response that the longer term plans were to build a new loco shed in the service area outside the main building.

 

So they wanted to wreck a real loco shed, albeit one not in original condition, turn it into a kids playground and then maybe one day build a new shed elsewhere. I suggested that if they kept the original shed (preserving it, just like museums are supposed to do) they could build a purpose built interactive kids area and I would be happy.

 

I was horrified then and I am just as unhappy now.

 

A museum that wants to concentrate on the future? It has truly lost its way. Bearing in mind that space and funds are limited, any fanciful notions of portraying science fiction railways of the future means less money for preserving, maintaining and displaying the collection of artifacts already held by the museum.

 

I fear that it has been taken over by "bright young things" who want to make a name for themselves with their radical and futuristic plans. Professional museum people who see "I completely changed the museum, altering its focus, design and purpose" as a much bigger tick on their CV than "I took the good things done by my predecessors and developed their ideas further"

[E3109]

Poor condition of non-steam artefacts? We're restoring the 2HAP, got plans for the 306, all the diesels are presentable, and four are now on display in the Great Hall Triangle area. The Freightliner outer was restored two years ago and we've just collected HSFV1. The 71 is going into Shildon workshops very soon...we're working hard on the collection.

 

Plans for the 306, you say.

I appreciate that you may not be in a position to say any more, but now my ears have pricked up!

[Bernard Lamb]

 

All in all, I think the LT Museum tells it’s story better, on a much smaller footprint, and although the way it does it probably doesn’t appeal to hardened gricers it certainly works for kids.

 

 

 

Have you been to the Acton depot Kevin?

I am biased as my daughter has recently been helping them on a project.

There are people there who are very keen to engage and ask questions regarding keeping and displaying their stock.

From what I have seen the LT people are doing a fine job.

Covent Garden for educational tourism and Acton for the more historical and mechanical enthusiasts.

Bernard

[Barry O]

After spending far too much on the big green steam loco this is just another stride down a long and tortuous path.

Compared to Steam at Swindon (which is layed out to tell a story about the railways) successive "leaders" at York have had little clue as to how to set it out to tell a story. When it was first opened the upstairs gallery was set out as a timeline..but that went a long time ago.

 

It's great getting items restored but they then seem to be unloved once back in the Museum..the 2Bil at Locomotion has a loose door grab handle which has no matching hole in the bodyside for a bolt to hold it in place (which it did when I last saw it in Brighton shed many moons ago).

 

Lots of items are in York which have no descriptions attached...

We need to have people in charge who have at least some railway knowledge not Civil Servants with no knowledge who just see this as a step up the promotion ladder.

 

Changing the name and font styles sums up the complete mess the NRM are in.

 

Baz

Old enough to remember the "old" Railway Museum in York staffed by retired railway staff

Edited April 29, 2018 by Barry O