GTR Timetable Change 2018

[Mike Storey]

Or Gwyneth Dunwoody.

 

Ok, quite right. They are both heroes and should have been in the Avengers films, but your accuracy defeats my sole Super Power, which is ......I forget.

[mdvle]

But that approach wouldn't really work on GWML, at least, because you can't really electrify to Swindon, then have a pause, then Bristol, pause, then Cardiff. The smallest section worth doing would be Airport Jn-Reading, for suburban services, then really you've got to go at least as far as Bristol to be worthwhile.

 

Certainly more difficult in the current non-loco railway, but then again nothing says you need to necessarily use the wires as soon as they are put up.  Even if it takes you 5 years to get to Bristol you have done so in a way that is more self sustaining and thus can continue on for the next however many decades to get the job done for the full network.

 

The alternative is the "big bang" approach of try everything at once which has failed quite well with parts of it now cancelled and no further plans contemplated.

[DIW]

..... but your accuracy defeats my sole Super Power, which is ......I forget.

 

 

You are AMNESIA MAN and I claim my ... what was it?

[locoholic]

..... and now Mr Grayling has announced another inquiry into why things have gone so wrong, both for GTR and for Northern customers. He apologised in parleyment, and was ridiculed even by tame Tory MP's. Clearly, they scent blood.

 

Mr Grayling blames the Industry Readiness Board (chaired by one Chris Gibb) for telling him that all would be right on the night. We do not yet have their version of events of course, and I wonder if we ever will (if Mr Gibb has no retirement plans as yet).

 

What we do have is a report by the Public Accounts Committee in Feb 2018, which is full of travesties of the truth, I am now beginning to wonder if the conspiracy theories are true. Just one example - they state in their conclusions that NR did not realise the extent of the additional works necessary to sustain a reliable service to serve the 24 tph tunnel service, until 2016. Oh yes they did - it was mentioned in the NAO report that they had raised objections to the planned level of services, due to network condition, in 2013!!! The daft bu88ers had obviously not even bothered to read that, and just took DafT's word for it, plus some compliant lacky from NR who confirmed that the £900m figure was not identified until 2016. Oh, for Betty Boothroyd to return from the grave.

 

Read it and see what you think - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmpubacc/466/466.pdf

 

Hopefully this will be the final nail in the coffin of the current franchise system, since no sane commercial enterprise would want to become involved in the inept micro-management scenario that DfT have created.

[RANGERS]

Hopefully this will be the final nail in the coffin of the current franchise system, since no sane commercial enterprise would want to become involved in the inept micro-management scenario that DfT have created.

There are plenty of overseas players, likely the kind of candidates DfT are looking to attract to promote competition in the market, who will want a piece of the action but the only way most will stick their neck out will be on the basis of having total control over their investment, infrastructure included. This plays into Graylings hands of a totally private network.

 

The reality is that the only way we’ll see any real improvement for passengers is if we can arrive at a situation where the market drives provision of the services and where there is open access which allows competition, and where the rewards generated can cross subsidise those services which are currently unsustainable.

 

If there is a model which hits this utopian mark, please jot the details on a postcard to Mr Grayling please.

[locoholic]

There are plenty of overseas players, likely the kind of candidates DfT are looking to attract to promote competition in the market, who will want a piece of the action but the only way most will stick their neck out will be on the basis of having total control over their investment, infrastructure included. This plays into Graylings hands of a totally private network.

The reality is that the only way we’ll see any real improvement for passengers is if we can arrive at a situation where the market drives provision of the services and where there is open access which allows competition, and where the rewards generated can cross subsidise those services which are currently unsustainable.

If there is a model which hits this utopian mark, please jot the details on a postcard to Mr Grayling please.

Oh dear. There will never be a "totally private network" again. The government has been interfering with the railways since 1923 for a reason - the railway network is not profitable.

 

Also, this naive belief that the "market" and "open access... competition" is a substitute for people making intelligent decisions has been tried for decades now, in the NHS and transport. It is purely political dogma, and there is now plenty of evidence that it doesn't work.

[Mike Storey]

There are plenty of overseas players, likely the kind of candidates DfT are looking to attract to promote competition in the market, who will want a piece of the action but the only way most will stick their neck out will be on the basis of having total control over their investment, infrastructure included. This plays into Graylings hands of a totally private network.

 

The reality is that the only way we’ll see any real improvement for passengers is if we can arrive at a situation where the market drives provision of the services and where there is open access which allows competition, and where the rewards generated can cross subsidise those services which are currently unsustainable.

 

If there is a model which hits this utopian mark, please jot the details on a postcard to Mr Grayling please.

 

That was how bus deregulation was supposed to work.......it didn't.

[The Stationmaster]

The subject got onto 'You and Yours' today with some sensible comments but, unavoidably, a few idiots.  After I'd emailed them they put me on standby for a call if they had time but they ran out of time so my moment of glory didn't arrive.  (Tip - if you open your email with a summary CV  relevant to the subject they seem to pay as much attention to that as they do to what you've actually said!)

[jim.snowdon]

That was how bus deregulation was supposed to work.......it didn't.

I thought one of the cardinal principles of bus deregulation was that companies were not permitted to deliberately use profitable services to subsidise the unprofitable ones, to the detriment of the rural bus services.

 

Jim

[cromptonnut]

Last weeekend the Tonbridge line had the local Southern services replaced by bus but the Southeastern services form Tunbridge Wells and Hastings were running via Tonbridge and Redhill. This weekend there are the same diversions and the local Southern services to Tonbridge are running aswell but this time no Reigate Southern services. It would appear (only my guess) that there aren't enough train crew to operate all services.

 

That was due to the Epsom Derby... anything and everything they could replace with a bus was sent to Tattenham Corner to strengthen services.

[cromptonnut]

While technically true, how many passengers are a) aware of the alternates to Gatwick and b) how practical when dragging luggage is it to then try and use a commuter train and c) can they still meet the time constraints given planes don't wait.  If I was Gatwick Airport this would infuriate me as the whole point of Gatwick Express is to get travelers to the airport, and if Gatwick Express is going to be the first service "thrown under the bus" then it isn't a service my customers could rely on.

 

Journey planner shows 28 minutes for Gatwick Express, or 32 minutes for Southern, between Victoria and Gatwick as average timings. I'm not sure that a couple of minutes makes much difference although the point about luggage is definitely valid.  On the flip side, being on a rammed platform or train and watching a 90% empty GatEx go past non-stop is very frustrating.

[great central]

Journey planner shows 28 minutes for Gatwick Express, or 32 minutes for Southern, between Victoria and Gatwick as average timings. I'm not sure that a couple of minutes makes much difference although the point about luggage is definitely valid.

You'd be surprised how many people do plan things to a couple of minutes, just assuming everything is going to work to plan, even to arriving at an airport with 10 minutes or less to spare.

Then, of course, it's someone else's fault they've not allowed a contingency for problems.

Had one on Saturday, split tickets and journey from York to Leicester via Manchester (?) Probably dead cheap but first train was 10 minutes late so missed the connection. Got on mine to Nottingham, but nothing to Leicester by the time we arrive, so was wanting a refund.

No idea what happened but I reckon a taxi from Nottingham to Leicester on Saturday evening could be best part of £50, train company unlikely to pay cos it's not their fault. Ticket didn't involve us at all!

[great central]

Deleted, duplicate post

Edited June 5, 2018 by great central

[cromptonnut]

You'd be surprised how many people do plan things to a couple of minutes, just assuming everything is going to work to plan, even to arriving at an airport with 10 minutes or less to spare.

Then, of course, it's someone else's fault they've not allowed a contingency for problems.

Had one on Saturday, split tickets and journey from York to Leicester via Manchester (?) Probably dead cheap but first train was 10 minutes late so missed the connection. Got on mine to Nottingham, but nothing to Leicester by the time we arrive, so was wanting a refund.

No idea what happened but I reckon a taxi from Nottingham to Leicester on Saturday evening could be best part of £50, train company unlikely to pay cos it's not their fault. Ticket didn't involve us at all!

 

If your connection A-C changing at B is late and you miss your connection at B through no fault of your own then the train company are obliged to get you to your destination.

 

However if you have split your ticket A-B and B-C and you get stranded at B then there is no obligation to get you onwards B-C.  A lot of people don't realise that.

[Mike Storey]

I thought one of the cardinal principles of bus deregulation was that companies were not permitted to deliberately use profitable services to subsidise the unprofitable ones, to the detriment of the rural bus services.

 

Jim

 

I was thinking more of the "market drives services provision.....and competition.". It didn't. It created monopolies through often dubious methods, and then resulted in wholesale reduction in services, which councils could not afford to replace.

[roundhouse]

Another great journey hone again tonight.

17.00 and 17.21 dissappeared and 17.30 cancelled

[cromptonnut]

No direct LBG-RDH between 1651 and 1803. Sadly 1707 and 1737 change at the hellhole known as East Croydon are your options during that period, or go for a pint and get a later train.

 

It's all gone a bit Thameslink... and I'm scared to visit Poundland now.

Edited June 5, 2018 by cromptonnut

[great central]

If your connection A-C changing at B is late and you miss your connection at B through no fault of your own then the train company are obliged to get you to your destination.

 

However if you have split your ticket A-B and B-C and you get stranded at B then there is no obligation to get you onwards B-C. A lot of people don't realise that.

There's often a lot of discretion shown in such circumstances so long as cost is minimal, such as a later train service, but when it comes to taxis late at night I think it comes down to cold hard facts. If they've got a fully valid ticket and the delay isn't their fault, no problem otherwise they've made their own choice. Some would say that's heartless but tough decisions have to be made.

[The Stationmaster]

I was thinking more of the "market drives services provision.....and competition.". It didn't. It created monopolies through often dubious methods, and then resulted in wholesale reduction in services, which councils could not afford to replace.

 

Oddly we do actually have some of that going on locally where the fly-by-night company trading as Carousel have put on a route to compete with the long established former Thames Valley routes nowadays run by Arriva.  Carousel have a very simple approach of opening up new routes which compete by roughly paralleling long existing routes and either breaking them or giving up after a year or two (hence the vehicles they use on the route here came from one they'd closed as a bad job elsewhere).  Basically they do the sort of cherry picking the Traffic Commissioners would have kicked out in the old, regulated, days.

[roundhouse]

No direct LBG-RDH between 1651 and 1803. Sadly 1707 and 1737 change at the hellhole known as East Croydon are your options during that period, or go for a pint and get a later train.

 

It's all gone a bit Thameslink... and I'm scared to visit Poundland now.

We managed to leave work early and cat H the 17.04 to ECR then an ex Vic service to Redhill but bring only 8 coaches taking LBG refugees it was a bit of a squeeze.

 

Beer may well be the option tonight but can't keep doing that every week night.

only 18 more days of commuting left. So just two more weekly tickets will see me through once my monthly expires.

[Mike Storey]

We managed to leave work early and cat H the 17.04 to ECR then an ex Vic service to Redhill but bring only 8 coaches taking LBG refugees it was a bit of a squeeze.

 

Beer may well be the option tonight but can't keep doing that every week night.

only 18 more days of commuting left. So just two more weekly tickets will see me through once my monthly expires.

 

Switch to wine then. Simples!

[roundhouse]

Switch to wine then. Simples!

Wine!!

 

No way.

 

We managed to get to ECR only for the Vic to Reigate service to dissappear off the departure board after showing it running 6 late. Platform packed so decided to give up and go for a pint then it will be a bus home from ECR. However it takes 45 minutes once we are on it.

 

Roll on end of June.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Wine!!

 

No way.

 

We managed to get to ECR only for the Vic to Reigate service to dissappear off the departure board after showing it running 6 late. Platform packed so decided to give up and go for a pint then it will be a bus home from ECR. However it takes 45 minutes once we are on it.

 

Roll on end of June.

 

That could be a problem after beer.

 

End of June - changing job or retiring? I think you hit 60???

[roundhouse]

A way off 60 yet . Just got so fed up that it's better to pack commuting in now rather than end up with a heart attack before 60.

There has been no Thameslink for about two hours this evening. They have been diverting Southern services to call at Redhill. Its getting worse by the day.

I just have to stick it out for a few more weeks

Edited June 5, 2018 by roundhouse

[Legend]

Perhaps the 2012 Olympics are a distant memory? A £9 billion scheme (including the huge, extra security, Lea Valley development and VAT, all excluded from the original bid costs), on time in a very compressed timescale, and came in £0.5 billion under the total budget. It had a huge number of fingers in the pie, including internationally. And that includes all Network Rail's bits. Britain can most certainly do it, as it proved, much to everyone's surprise.

 

You could also cite CrossRail and a number of schemes in Scotland similarly (except latterly the E&G now.

The Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh Trams.....................

 

I accept what you say, the Olympics were a triumph . However there are more than a few project that are just out of control , and we are just as susceptible north of the Border too