Are Hornby's Designs and Details Too Clever?

[robmcg]

For years and years modellers and collectors have wanted more detail, more accurate models, year after year but now your saying they have gone to far and should produce models as they did years ago?

 

In spite of a recent run of highly detailed RTR models arriving damaged, usually quite minor damage really, I prefer the highly detailed models over the more robust older style or Railroad type..

 

I wouldn't want to be in the manufacturing or retail business though!  I guess the cost of returns is 'priced-in'.

 

I sell a lot of my models after using them for photographs (my main hobby) and wrap with lots of bubble-wrap and care and get near-zero returns, but I'm not sending things outside the country, (NZ).  Equally, I have been receiving more models from the UK which have damage than I did in the 2006-2012 years, where many models were exceedingly fragile, e.g. the Hornby Standard 4MT 4-6-0 ... none of them bought new were damaged, but a couple bought second-hand more-or-less disintegrated in the post because they weren't restrained by transit brackets. Similar story for the T9 and Schools class. Clearly this was the responsibility of the s/h sellers, not the manufacturers.

 

Totally unscientific but I think that the standard of assembly and design of packaging is generally outstanding, but I just had a bad run, as it were. Some highly-detailed RTR models are more prone to transit damage than others, but I still prefer them to the idea of making models less-detailed.

[jjb1970]

I like the Scaletrains concept of releasing the same basic model as either a rivet counter release (full detail) or operator release (pared down separate detail) as it provides choice. Collectors and those who are comfortable with handling models with a lot of delicate separately applied parts can pay for the rivet counter release, those who want something a bit more robust and who are happy enough with a bit less detail for layout work horses can go for the operator version and also save a bit of money. They also did a museum edition level for their gas turbine models.

[Chuntybunt]

Just about every other loco purchase I make these days seams to turn up with some sort of damage, it's usually minor and can be fixed with a small amount of glue so I can't be bothered with the agro of contacting the retailer, sending it back and then waiting at home again for another day for the delivery. Also what do you do when the courier arrives and the box has obviously had a knock, despite having handle with care labels plastered all over it, say your not going to sign for it until you've unpacked it, inspected it and given it a test run? It's very disappointing when you fork out your hard earned sponds and damaged goods arrive.

[Hilux5972]

Also what do you do when the courier arrives and the box has obviously had a knock, despite having handle with care labels plastered all over it, say your not going to sign for it until you've unpacked it, inspected it and given it a test run?

Here in New Zealand, most stores say you have to do this if something is marked fragile, because once you have signed for it, you have accepted it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...what do you do when the courier arrives and the box has obviously had a knock, despite having handle with care labels plastered all over it, say your not going to sign for it until you've unpacked it, inspected it and given it a test run?...

 Yes, and they whine like you wouldn't believe! Well worth it the last time I did it, item badly damaged (not model railway) and it was replaced within two days with no effort on my part beyond the unpacking to verify the story the exterior damage to the packaging told. (Hilariously enough, my brother knows the courier operator concerned via a business he used to work for, and heard a very colourful version of the story about this complete bastard who stole three quarters of an hour from him in the week before Christmas. sorry chum, you chose that job...)

[Godfrey Glyn]

I gather that some delivery guys and girls are only paid about 70p to deliver a parcel and have to try 3 times before they can be paid for trying so one cannot be surprised if they want to get onto the next job. Recently down in Dorset a guy, working for a delivery company was under so much pressure not to be off  work that he missed a hospital appointment that might very well have prevented his subsequent death. On that basis I have a lot of sympathy for the people who find themselves doing these jobs - they may not have had much choice about it. Of course one could equally say that they should have worked harder at school/college and got themselves some qualifications and entry into a more stable employment but even that isn't fully guaranteed these days.

 

If you look at the way Hornby pack their models for distribution they come with a thick layer of foam around sides of the substantial outer box and generally arrive in good condition, unlike some of the other manufacturers whose packing can sometimes be fairly minimal. If you really are unable to get to a local model shop and have the opportunity to inspect and test run your purchase you do have a problem.

 

I would suggest that if you are indeed left with no other choice then choose a retailer in your own country and then test different retailers for the quality of their packaging and the delivery service they use. This may not be the cheapest option but if you want high quality detailed models that arrive in good condition, that may be your only option. I simply do not think its possible to produce high quality models cheaply that are not delicate.

 

all the best and happy shopping

 

Godfrey

[Chuffed 1]

Packing and handling can only be a concurrent problem if not enough fixative (both mechanical and adhesive) is used. Just received a Hornby SR cattle wagon today - lovely bit of kit but the buffer head fell off as I unpacked it. Like the H class with the dome rattling around in the box, not enough adhesive. You get the impression that there's just enough to get the thing packed and then...?

[totonlover]

For years and years modellers and collectors have wanted more detail, more accurate models, year after year but now your saying they have gone to far and should produce models as they did years ago?

 

Something in between?

[GoingUnderground]

I feel for anyone who orders goods and they arrive damaged. But the problem isn't solely related to Hornby or Heljan, or even just model railways.

 

Earlier this year my computet monitor died. It had done vallisnt service and was over 10 years old, hsving outlived the computer it was bought to work with many years ago. I found the one I wanted, and ordered it, paying extra for next day delivery.

 

On arrival I checked the packaging, all perfect, no external damage. But after opening the box I saw thattt the screen and front bezel were damaged. It wasn't impact damage but damage during assembly by the manufacturer, as both the bezel and the screen were pushed out. The edge of the screen had caught on the bezel and the force used to make it fit had cracked the screen where it as caught on the bezel. It should never have got past quality control at the end of the producton line. It was returned to the supplier and refunded in full.

 

So I don't blame the "brand", as these days they will in all probability have contracted out the manufacturing and assembly process. I blame the actual maker/assembler, who, having underbid to get the contract, is cutting corners to make their profit and sending out damaged goods knowing that boxshifters don't check anything before selling it. The blame will always go to the carrier for "damage in transit" even when that is impossible, such as my monitor.

[Brocp]

Hornby's designs certainly sometimes are too clever for themselves, on the new Patriots for example they've completely forgotten to add the mechanical lubricators on the LMS version. Mine has none and none of the ones I've seen on shop sites have them either. But strangely the BR one has them...

 

For me Hornby's issues with their models aren't that they are designed necessarily poorly or that they are overly fragile (they are no where near as bad as Heljan's steam locos for example) but that QC is quite poor and little things are either ignored or forgotten about. Hornby need to quickly improve this and get back on the right track.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Something in between?

 

Just which 'in between' though? My preferences would include dropping 'invisible' painted cab interior detail on deep cabbed locos that just isn't seen with the loco running. Sprung buffers can go as well, a separate metal head and shaft push fit into a moulded on stock is sufficient to convey that it is a moving element in reality. (There's quite a saving to be had as the finishing stages to produce the small parts and then fit them is all very labour intensive.) External detail that is always on view, there the cost of separately fitted parts is well worthwhile.

 

But I am told by retailers that 'fully detailed cab interior' scores very high in purchase preferences, and sprung buffers are much liked too.

 

Then again I want some features that are not visible, like at least one sprung pick-up wheelset on a rigid chassis model; something which has been squeezed out by cost containment pressures and is of course of no value to those who run their models little if at all.

[p8kpev]

Just which 'in between' though? My preferences would include dropping 'invisible' painted cab interior detail on deep cabbed locos that just isn't seen with the loco running. Sprung buffers can go as well, a separate metal head and shaft push fit into a moulded on stock is sufficient to convey that it is a moving element in reality. (There's quite a saving to be had as the finishing stages to produce the small parts and then fit them is all very labour intensive.) External detail that is always on view, there the cost of separately fitted parts is well worthwhile.

 

But I am told by retailers that 'fully detailed cab interior' scores very high in purchase preferences, and sprung buffers are much liked too.

 

Then again I want some features that are not visible, like at least one sprung pick-up wheelset on a rigid chassis model; something which has been squeezed out by cost containment pressures and is of course of no value to those who run their models little if at all.

 

This makes eminently good sense.  I don't understand the modeling appeal of sprung buffers.  They trigger a moment of appreciation for the engineering and assembly skill involved, but after the "gee-whiz" epiphany, they don't add value.  Sprung axles, sprung pickups, however--those could extend the operating value of the locos.

[Steamport Southport]

This makes eminently good sense.  I don't understand the modeling appeal of sprung buffers.  They trigger a moment of appreciation for the engineering and assembly skill involved, but after the "gee-whiz" epiphany, they don't add value.  Sprung axles, sprung pickups, however--those could extend the operating value of the locos.

 

What about those of us that don't use tension lock couplings? I get a bit fed up wasting money having to pay for those and NEM sockets as I don't use them. Nor the sockets and electronics for DCC. Lights is another waste of money.

 

So I think that others can put up with paying a bit extra for us to have sprung buffers.

 

 

Watch a model train comprising of 40 wagons with sprung buffers and three link couplings roll past and then you might see the appeal.

 

 

 

Jason

[Jack P]

What about those of us that don't use tension lock couplings? I get a bit fed up wasting money having to pay for those and NEM sockets as I don't use them. Nor the sockets and electronics for DCC. Lights is another waste of money.

 

So I think that others can put up with paying a bit extra for us to have sprung buffers.

 

 

Watch a model train comprising of 40 wagons with sprung buffers and three link couplings roll past and then you might see the appeal.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Absolutely agree.

 

I'm looking forward (not) to retrofitting sprung buffers to my SECR Birdcage stock when it arrives, so that it will work with my chosen coupling method (3-link and screw couplings).

 

in many instances it does surprise and disappoint me when modern tooled locos/stock doesn't come with sprung buffers, the E4/H2 just as examples. I can understand why you could see them as being a novelty when you use the NEM pocket and one of the more traditional coupling systems that fit them, it does still frustrate me when people suggest they are completely un-needed and should be removed though..

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The two posts above illustrate perfectly what I was driving at in response to the idea of 'something in between' in terms of detail. All the current features are valued by some of us. They must be, otherwise the manufacturers would not have gone that way: or would have soon desisted if they had tried and got a negative reaction from the market.

 

(FWIW, I have been busy installing sprung buffers on my ancient Bach mk1 non-gangwayed, to enable them to run properly all buffered up in screw coupled sets. I make an exchange with the sprung buffers from Hornby's Pullman gangwayed coaches which run as close coupled sets using NEM mechanisms, which need retracted (and fixed) buffers.)

[The Johnster]

Sprung buffers are a gimmick that serves no purpose on a layout that uses set track geometry and tension lock couplers.  Modern ones are not so bad, but there was a time when the springing was much too strong and wagons would bounce off all over the place except where you wanted them when you didn't want them to.  But those who adopt a more 'scale' approach have closer coupled stock, and need buffers that actually operate in the same way as on the prototype; they must compress on the inside radius buffer when the train negotiates a curve, especially propelling.  And, even on scale layouts, our sharpest curves are inevitably in yards where stock is propelled!

 

Traditionally, RTR models had solid buffers because that's all they ever needed, but the modern move towards higher fidelity RTR has introduced them on some stock.  I have no actual objection to them, but feel that on my tension lock layout the money the manufacture laid out on them might have been better spent on a removable cab roof so that I could put crews in my tank engines.

 

But all 00 modelling is a compromise, however fine scale it claims to be; I have yet to see a steam powered loco that can be controlled realistically enough to perform yard shunting duties even in scales much larger.  Our track gauge, curves, thickness of the material the stuff is made out of, wheel profiles, in fact pretty much everything is a compromise of some sort between scale appearance and detail, and functionability and robustness for handling.  If our stock was as damaged as real stock is in minor derailments, we would moan about it's fragility, but in fact we should be praising the realism and driving more carefully!

 

This is, of course, the core of the discussion.  There will alway be a conflict of interest between the desire to make something as realistic as possible and the need to enable it to survive packaging, shipping, and normal handling.  Some of my recent Hornbys have proved a bit delicate, and I have had to learn to handle them carefully, but it is nothing I can't cope with, annoying though it is when buffers fall off in service because of poor QC.  But this isn't an in-house Hornby issue; their manufacture and assembly is subcontracted in China, so there's little point in Johnster moaning to Hornby about it.  Suck it up, Buttercup, and superglue your buffers in place, and be glad you bought your 42xx when it was £40 cheaper than it is now!

 

A manufacturer, who of course doesn't manufacture anything as his Chinese subcontractors do all that, has to design a model that is not only an acceptable compromise between realism and robustness for the customer but also capable of being manufactured, assembled, packaged, and distributed cost effectively.  Any idiot with a scale drawing can do the former, but it takes a particularly qualified and skilled sort of idiot to do the latter.

 

As far as paying for NEM on stock you are going to fit with scale couplings, I feel your pain.  The worst feature is that the mortice mounting block for the NEM has to be cut away with some difficulty and faff to put the scale coupling in.  But you are a scale modeller, and this comes with the territory of using scale couplings on RTR stock.  We strive for an impossible perfection and complain that we cannot achieve it; compromise again.  I would advise a stoical approach; it is what it is, and the stock is well enough detailed at the price, to which NEM adds a very small amount in the bulk quantities that it is supplied to the Chinese assembly plants.  

 

Buy some magazines or catalogues from 40 years ago and look at what we had to put with in those days; it'll cheer you up a bit!

Edited December 8, 2018 by The Johnster