Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

The double-decker buses I use in Oxford are fully accessible to wheelchairs, prams etc, having fold out ramps, designated spaces and tip-up seats to provide more space.

 

 

I was under the impression that all new-build stations had (by law) to be fully accessible; That is certainly the case for the examples I know of in Scotland. Can you provide examples please of new-build stations which are only accessible by stairs ?

 

Agree twice - most of the 'buses I have encountered in Reading in recent years are the same and the additional stations on the SWML in South Wales openeda good few years back had to be fully accessible so came with either level access to both sides or ramped footbridges which cost £1 million a go to construct (at 1990 prices).

[corneliuslundie]

But the great majority of stations are not of recent construction. There is a funded program of accessibility improvements but I don't know how far it has got.

Apologies for raising a hare on bus accessibility. Certainly our local single deckers are all accessible, so it appears that it is coaches used for ;longer rail replacement routes that are the problem.

Jonathan

[tgk300]

3 hours ago, dvdlcs said:

 

2 power cars may take more space than one, and increase the cost of the unit, but as has been mentioned previously the diesel fuel capacity may be a consideration too.

 

[I'm assuming the fuel tanks are in the power cars. If not, then ignore the above comment.]

I'm not expert, but I can say for certain that they are. I cannot imagine that the fuel can be in one car, and the engines in another. That would mean pumping fuel through hoses along the train, somthing that, in the event of a derailment, would be diasterious.

 

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

The double-decker buses I use in Oxford are fully accessible to wheelchairs, prams etc, having fold out ramps, designated spaces and tip-up seats to provide more space.

That's interesting, down here you would struggle to turn any decent sized wheelchair on a double decker, especially if there are other people aboard. 

 

Regarding new build stations, I was saying that all stations apart from new build ones only have only stairs. Suggesting that only the very latest stations are accessible, the other 99% are not. Sorry if it was poorly worded and lead to a misunderstanding. 

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

I was under the impression that all new-build stations had (by law) to be fully accessible; That is certainly the case for the examples I know of in Scotland.

It is the same story down here in Devon, the two new stations within a few miles of my house have both stairs and ramps to access them. Although, both of these stations are on flat ground making access very easy, my most local (branchline) station, is well above road level at the same level as an overbridge making any kind of ramp impossible, a lift is the only way. The station is called Polsloe Bridge, it is not a new build station (in fact, it is still the orginal concrete from the 1920's) but it's an example of a station that is almost impossible to make acessible, I mean just look at those stairs. The link is below. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiW-fPg0-LmAhUmxYUKHdQRBogQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPolsloe_Bridge_railway_station&psig=AOvVaw2RYkhXzEGk_JxBIDaPkBrn&ust=1577976784972832

 

 

[black and decker boy]

A great many historic stations are accessible, not just those that topography suited when built 100 years ago but also many that NR have been retrofitting.

[tgk300]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

A great many historic stations are accessible, not just those that topography suited when built 100 years ago but also many that NR have been retrofitting.

That maybe true, but many smaller surburban routes don't have if any accessible stations. 

[black and decker boy]

56 minutes ago, tgk300 said:

That maybe true, but many smaller surburban routes don't have if any accessible stations. 

Make your mind up. Your previous post said 

 

Regarding new build stations, I was saying that all stations apart from new build ones only have only stairs. Suggesting that only the very latest stations are accessible, the other 99% are not.

 

 

[black and decker boy]

Some info here from DfT / NR

 

Improving access to Great Britain’s railway stations is a key priority for this government and we want all passengers to be able to travel easily and confidently. The Department’s Access for All programme is critical to delivering this; the programme has already delivered an accessible, step free route at more than 200 stations, as well as smaller scale accessibility improvements at more than 1,500 others.

The Inclusive Transport Strategy, published on 25 July 2018, included a commitment to extend the Access for All programme, announcing an additional £300 million of funding from the public purse.

Our approach is to work with transport operators and partners to target investments where they are needed most and where they can deliver the greatest impact. This funding will enable us to deliver accessibility improvements at more stations across the rail network, and allow us to proceed with the station enhancements that were deferred from Control Period 5.

In total 73 stations are set to benefit from this funding. This is in addition to the 24 station projects that are ongoing. The selected stations will, subject to a feasible design being possible, receive an accessible route into the station, as well as to and between every platform.

[tgk300]

15 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Make your mind up. Your previous post said 

 

Regarding new build stations, I was saying that all stations apart from new build ones only have only stairs. Suggesting that only the very latest stations are accessible, the other 99% are not.

 

 

What are you on about? I initally said that all stations apart from new builds have stairs suggesting that ONLY new build are accessible. 

My next post says that many surburban routes don't have many accessible stations. 

 

Both posts suggest that accessible stations are rare, which where I am from is certainly the case. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by tgk300

[tgk300]

3 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

subject to a feasible design being possible

That there is the issue, many stations won't have a feasible design that is possible. We can almost be certain that the easy ones will get it first, leaving the slightly more challenging ones at the bottom of the pile with less money to do it. Regarding the station I mentioned earlier, when the second platform is reopened, you would need either a lfit on both platforms or a lift one on side and a bridge connecting both platforms, both of which is a little more costly than just removing steps and adding a ramp. 

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, tgk300 said:

What are you on about? I initally said that all stations apart from new builds have stairs suggesting that ONLY new build are accessible. 

My next post says that many surburban routes don't have many accessible stations. 

 

Both posts suggest that accessible stations are rare, which where I am from is certainly the case. 

 

Where I live, on the south side of Glasgow, in many cases the availablity of step-free access is simply an accident of history and geography. On my own local route, Glasgow Central-Neilston, some stations have, and always have had, step-free access to both platforms; Muirend, Patterton, Neilston. One had step-free access to one side only but now has that to both platforms; Whitecraigs. One station has never had step-free access but lifts are now provided; Mount Florida, easily the busiest station on the route; And others still, regrettably, are accessed by stairs only, however in some cases providing ramps or lifts would be extremely expensive and disruptive, at for example Pollokshields East, Crosshill and Cathcart in particular.

 

And access is gradually being improved, lifts have recently been installed at Kilwinning, a key interchange. However such schemes do not come cheap and funds have to be prioritised at the busiest locations. It must be extremely frustrating not being able to board a train at a station such as Polsloe Bridge, but as you yourself say making it accessible would be difficult if not impossible, and the same would apply to, in particular, Crosshill, which is in an extremely confined space with only just enough room for stairs.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by caradoc
Remove unintended content

[corneliuslundie]

It is interesting that in France the solution seems to be to retain barrow type crossings between platforms, even on lines with speeds above 100 mph. It may be that the examples i have seen are the exception but they certainly seem to exist. Do they lose many passengers through accidents on these crossings? Of course, this is a country where most lower speed lines are not fenced - as is the case ion many countries.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

One interesting little aside in this is that GWR's new printed pocket timetables are very clearly listing stations which have step free access, no step free access, or step free access to some platforms only plus those which have toilets and disabled toilets.   I don't know if this is limited to GWR or applies to all operators?  

 

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

It is interesting that in France the solution seems to be to retain barrow type crossings between platforms, even on lines with speeds above 100 mph. It may be that the examples i have seen are the exception but they certainly seem to exist. Do they lose many passengers through accidents on these crossings? Of course, this is a country where most lower speed lines are not fenced - as is the case ion many countries.

Jonathan

Barrow crossings are death traps and in any case would nowadays be classified as 'level crossings' and need to be protected accordingly.  In view of fatalities which have occurred at stations where protected foot crossings do exist I would be amazed if anybody were to consider them as answer to disabled access, especially as virtually all stations where they would be likely to provide such access are unstaffed.  Don't forget too that we are already well into an era - like it or not - where traditional ramped platform ends are vanishing whenever the opportunity to get rid of them offers.

[caradoc]

17 hours ago, tgk300 said:

What are you on about? I initally said that all stations apart from new builds have stairs suggesting that ONLY new build are accessible. 

My next post says that many surburban routes don't have many accessible stations. 

 

Both posts suggest that accessible stations are rare, which where I am from is certainly the case. 

 

I have to apologise to tkg300; I misread the earlier post as saying new-build stations have stairs only, the opposite of what was actually said ! However, I must disagree that accessible stations are rare, there are plenty of older stations which have either been accessible from the word go, or where step-free access has subsequently been provided, as per the examples on the Neilston line in my post yesterday evening.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Don't worry, Stationmaster, I was not advocating the idea of going back to barrow crossings, merely expressing surprise that they are apparently still regarded as acceptable in France.

Incidentally, on another thread here recently it was specifically noted that at one station it was proving impossible to provide accessible routes because of the close proximity of a river and other immovable obstructions.

Jonathan

[DY444]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One interesting little aside in this is that GWR's new printed pocket timetables are very clearly listing stations which have step free access, no step free access, or step free access to some platforms only plus those which have toilets and disabled toilets.   I don't know if this is limited to GWR or applies to all operators?  

 

Barrow crossings are death traps and in any case would nowadays be classified as 'level crossings' and need to be protected accordingly.  In view of fatalities which have occurred at stations where protected foot crossings do exist I would be amazed if anybody were to consider them as answer to disabled access, especially as virtually all stations where they would be likely to provide such access are unstaffed.  Don't forget too that we are already well into an era - like it or not - where traditional ramped platform ends are vanishing whenever the opportunity to get rid of them offers.

 

The last time I was at Exeter St. Davids I saw a passenger in a wheelchair being taken across the crossing at the Plymouth end by a member of the station staff.   It does have lights which go out when a train is approaching though.

[tgk300]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

The last time I was at Exeter St. Davids I saw a passenger in a wheelchair being taken across the crossing at the Plymouth end by a member of the station staff.   It does have lights which go out when a train is approaching though.

Exeter St Davids in my local mainline station, so I can confirm that the practice you described does happen, although it is not common by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

A MOD CAN DELETE THIS AS IT APPEARS TO OFF DUPLICATED

Edited January 2, 2020 by tgk300

[tgk300]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

The last time I was at Exeter St. Davids I saw a passenger in a wheelchair being taken across the crossing at the Plymouth end by a member of the station staff.   It does have lights which go out when a train is approaching though.

Exeter St Davids in my local mainline station, so I can confirm that the practice you described does happen, although it is not common by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

4 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

I have to apologise to tkg300; I misread the earlier post as saying new-build stations have stairs only, the opposite of what was actually said ! However, I must disagree that accessible stations are rare, there are plenty of older stations which have either been accessible from the word go, or where step-free access has subsequently been provided, as per the examples on the Neilston line in my post yesterday evening.

 

Appology accepted, sorry if I came across as almost agressive in my response. It is also interesting to me that you have many local stations that are accessible. It might just be a coincidence that I don't seem to be so lucky and that my most local station (the previosly mentioned Polsloe Bridge) is not accessible. It must be the differing topographys of our respective local areas that has caused this rather large split of non accessible and accessible stations.

Edited January 2, 2020 by tgk300
Missed content.

[tgk300]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget too that we are already well into an era - like it or not - where traditional ramped platform ends are vanishing whenever the opportunity to get rid of them offers.

Why is this? I am not saying that it is a good nor bad thing, I am just curious as too why this is done. The only reason I can think off is that it makes the track more difficult to access from the platform which would hopefully prevent those unauthorised to do so wondering onto the track. Is this somthing that is being retrofitted to existing stations or is it a new build policy only?

 

Regarding barrow crossing, would it not be possible where is bridge cannot be installed to have them but with level crossing style barriers & lights? Having barrier and lights would surely then make them just like a normal level crossing used by both foot and motor traffic? Forgive me if I am missing somthing, but would that not pose jsut the same risk if not less as it only pedestrianized traffic and not road as well? Would have then is basically just a mini level crossing with all the light and barriers, but scaled down somewhat. I am not saying this is a good idea, I am just wondering if It has been considered or trialed. 

[Classsix T]

3 minutes ago, tgk300 said:

Exeter St Davids in my local mainline station, so I can confirm that the practice you described does happen, although it is not common by any stretch of the imagination. 

Prior to the lifts being installed at Ipswich this was the situation to access P3&4.

Stowmarket is accessible both platforms but a right rigmarole should you want to enquire at the booking office then need an up train. The only way to make Needham Market compliant would be to stick one of those Donkey Kong footbridges in the car park, the ramp on to the down platform is apparently too steep an angle to comply.

 

Thurston, Thetford and Wymondham to name a few familiar to me will need major spend to bring up to scratch. I wonder if made law, could a TOC become liable to taxi a mobility impaired punter to the nearest compliant station? Rhetorically speaking like?

 

C6T. 

[tgk300]

2 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

Donkey Kong footbridges

What on earth is a "Donkey Kong foorbridge"? 

[Talltim]

With a massively over engineered ramp that goes back and forth

[tgk300]

Just now, Talltim said:

With a massively over engineered ramp that goes back and forth

Ah ok, I get it now. They don't look great, but I suppose they're needed to avoid stairs.

[Classsix T]

24 minutes ago, tgk300 said:

Ah ok, I get it now. They don't look great, but I suppose they're needed to avoid stairs.

You should see the monster west of Thurston son, viewable from space, it'll take horses (I sh*t you not) as a bridleway!

 

C6T. 

[Classsix T]

39 minutes ago, Talltim said:

With a massively over engineered ramp that goes back and forth

Flames and barrels optional, natch.

 

C6T. 

[tgk300]

22 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

You should see the monster west of Thurston son, viewable from space, it'll take horses (I sh*t you not) as a bridleway!

 

C6T. 

I have just looked it up and seen it, what a beast. I would say that we are entering an era where these bridges will become standard at many stations and ex level crossing such as the one you mentioned at Thurston. Out of interest, was the ability to take horses a requirement, or was that just a joke? 

 

Done a bit of research and apparently the bridge was not popular with the locals. Looks like ramp gradient is not all that steep, it would be interesting to know if there is a recomended and a maximum gradient. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by tgk300