Rapido LB&SCR Class E1 0-6-0T

[Nearholmer]

Evidence?

 

(That sky blue one seems to have done ok)

[Edwardian]

Evidence?

 

(That sky blue one seems to have done ok)

 

A really useful engine, I heard.

 

Used as a station pilot and then as a branch engine, IIRC.

[IWCR]

The  Southern  did  have  a  large  range  of  old  tank  locomotives,  this  was  due  to  the  policy  of  concentrating  on  Electrification,  no  suburban  locomotives  or  loco  hauled  suburban   stock  was  built  at  all.  Improvements  out  in  the sticks  being  met  by  newish  pregrouping  locos and  stock  displaced  from  electrified areas.

Hence  a  model  of  a  Southern  Branch  line  needs  these  designs  which  could  often  be  very  locally  specific.

Post  WW2  it  was  identified  that  replacements  for  the  now  elderly  fleet  would  be  required,  the  resulting  design  was  the  "Leader",   (less  said  the  better).  The  Southern  Region  finally  began  bringing  in  small  modern  tanks  such  as  Ivatt 2's  and  the  BR  standards  after  nationalisation.  Many  of  the  older  locos  made  it   into  the  60's,  often  not  being  replaced  due   to  line  closures  instead.

The  E1  is  excellent  news  and  I  will  certainly  buy  some,  another  possible  livery  option  would  be  Malachite  Green,  (both  SR  &  BR  lettering)  which  was  carried  by  W1  and  W4  on  the  IOW.

 

Pete

[sem34090]

Ah, you see, I hold NWR No.1 to be the sole E1x, which was not (as written and commonly held) rebuilt back into conventional E1 form but was in fact sold to the NWR. There it received a new sky blue livery, lined out in red, with the number '1' applied to the tankside. At some point the cab ventilator was removed, and in the 1930s the tanks were extended in a similar manner to the second batch of LBSCR E2's to permit the loco's operation on the long branchline recently allocated to it, water capacity not being an issue when on station pilot duties.

 

I say this as, to me, the E1x just looks a bit more like said loco, and it's sale to Sodor seems more plausible to me as all the E2's are accounted for until BR withdrew them in the 60s whereupon they were scrapped. It was probably more useful than the known-to-be-troublesome E2's.

 

Nobody seems to agree with me though! At any rate the good Reverend initially had him shaped like a J50...

Edited June 6, 2018 by sem34090

[dibber25]

The only Southern REGION (Note the capitalisation) workings of Panniers that I'm aware of were on the South Eastern Division (Folkestone Harbour to replace the R1's and before them the P's) and out West of Weymouth where the Southern and Western met anyway. None on the Central Division or (better put) the LBSCR. There were times they would have intermingled, such as Nearholmer's example, but none were ever operated there by the Southern Region.

 

Based on that there really is no replacement for a LBSCR/Central Division E1!

 

Eventually one of my dream projects is Victoria circa-1880 so I can have LC&DR, LB&SCR (Stroudley stuff as well as Craven by this point!) and GWR Broad Gauge!

 

Did 57XX panniers not also replace M7s on Waterloo ECS trains? (CJL)

[Nearholmer]

I think they did, during the ‘wear it out, then scrap it’ phase as steam was run down nationally. They in turn were replaced by Ivatt 2-6-2T, which I can actually remember seeing, so it must be true.

 

Here’s a song, sung by an E1

 

It was the cottage in the Isle of Whight that put me in mind of it.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Nearholmer

[autocoach]

Am I just missing something? Are their any SECR engines other than the C class that are in the current market or offing?

 

I just have an SECR interest as my family home was Penge and a great grandfather worked for the SECR at Sydenham Hill.....and I remember Penge East well as a small child in the late 1940's and destination to visit remaining  family up until the 1990's. 

[autocoach]

OOps forgot about the Hornby H class,,,,

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Bachmann have the N, Hattons have the P (whether or not the N is 'current, dealers have stock). Still no maker has picked up the so elegant Wainwright D however.

[Andy Hayter]

And Hornby have recently done a repaint of their terrier for one of the ones bought be the SECR from the LBSCR - soon to be replaced and probably bettered by the Rails / Dapol release.

[Ian Hargrave]

Bachmann have the N, Hattons have the P (whether or not the N is 'current, dealers have stock). Still no maker has picked up the so elegant Wainwright D however.

Yes,we have to keep plugging doggedly at it.Maybe one day.....soon ?

[Killian keane]

E1 was not a small class, with 80 examples! The Brighton had been full of ones and twos in J C Craven’s time, as he seemed to like tinkering, but Stroudley was strong on standardisation. The E1 was a success - but train weights began to increase and so Stroudley’s successor, Robert Billinton, created his various classes of radial tanks which were more puissant and led to E1s being laid off earlier than their sound design might suggest.

So true, Craven designed something like 73 classes in 20 years, compared with 7 for Stroudley, when the directors suggested he design fewer engines he promptly resigned!

[Nearholmer]

And everyone breathed a sigh of relief.

[Edwardian]

And Hornby have recently done a repaint of their terrier for one of the ones bought be the SECR from the LBSCR - soon to be replaced and probably bettered by the Rails / Dapol release.

 

Which will be terribly useful when they also bring out a Sondes!

 

But, actually, what a splendid excuse to scratch-build one!

[bike2steam]

Did 57XX panniers not also replace M7s on Waterloo ECS trains? (CJL)

 

http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/57xx.htm

[Nearholmer]

Diversion approaching.

 

I’d never seen a picture of Craven, so I googled and found this.

 

Now, is it me, or do his eyes appear to display differently dilated pupils? And, the left eye other features associated with something called Horner’s Syndrome?

[autocoach]

Bachmann have the N, Hattons have the P (whether or not the N is 'current, dealers have stock). Still no maker has picked up the so elegant Wainwright D however.

I have a pair of N's but I think of them more as Southern than SECR. They were the dominant goods power on the ex-LSWR/North Cornwall line to Padstow. And I have a P Class as well. All of these loco's are in Bulleid Black with Sunshine SOUTHERN so I forget it originally was SECR. The fiction of the P Class in Padstow is that it was being tried out as a replacement for BWT's on the Wenford Clay turn. The C Class was somehow mistaken for a Black Motor and accidentally sent west and forgotten that that it was there once it was at Wadbridge sub shed.  I would have to consider an H as a possible substitute for my LSWR O2 or M7. And as for that Merchant Navy that somehow made it to Padstow over Meldon viaduct on the remainder of an ACE instead of a WC/BoB.......

[JSpencer]

OOps forgot about the Hornby H class,,,,

And the Hattons P class?

[Trog]

Believe me, it's all been very carefully thought out and well researched................... The 'E1' model is still some way off, as it is intended for release in 2020. (CJL)

 

Should be a good model if they are using 2020 foresight.

[burgundy]

Diversion accepted!
Firstly, J C Craven was much maligned, particularly by Hamilton Ellis, who seems to have drawn on the recollections of one of Craven's grandaughters. There was a 5 page article in the Locomotive for 15 August 1940 (was there nothing else significant happening then?) which outlines his career and personal qualities (or lack of them).
In his support, he built Brighton loco works up from scratch and developed its capabilities on the modest level of orders for new locos that the company could afford. He was evidently an experimentally minded engineer, as he was interested in trying out and introducing new technologies as they came along. He was also “blessed” with a Locomotive Committee that enforced extreme economy on new builds, forcing much recycling of material. His requests for additional stock were ignored, until the Committee panicked and ordered the same type of 2-2-2 single from three outside builders – only to discover that they could not pay for them. My view is that he was at least as much sinned against as sinning!

Eh? Stroudley was very much a latecomer.

 

The Midland, LNWR, GWR and others already had standardisation years before Stroudley had even designed a locomotive. All had parts that fitted other locomotives to designs that were progressively larger.

 

Stroudley hadn't even built the three little tanks in Lochgorm until 1869. 

 

But you can't let facts get in the way of a myth perpetrated for decades.....

 

 

I don't think many people would claim that Stroudley invented standardisation but he did bring it to Brighton in quite a dramatic way. He must have had a completely different relationship with the Directors, as he seems to have had a much freer hand to run the Locomotive Department. With Robert Billinton as his Chief Draughtsman and Dougald Drummond as his Works Manager, he rebuilt the works and completely changed the way of working from a sort of craft workshop to something like a production line.  Interchangability of components became possible not  only within classes – but between them as well.         

Finally, since we are also dealing in this thread with pannier tanks, was this one in South Wales on the Alexandra Docks and Railway, Newport, the ancestor of the long line of GWR panniers?

If so, it came second hand from the Brighton, where it had been designed by no less than J C Craven.

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

[Edwardian]

The announced locomotives include:

 

No.97 Honfleur, in IEG. 

 

I hope it's better than Dapol's O Gauge yellow.  I hope Dapol's OO Gauge IEG is, for that matter.  IMHO, Dapol's yellow is outside the credible range of interpretation of IEG, and there does seem to be a range.  I am encouraged, then, by MR's use of "golden ochre" to describe IEG. With the quality of RTR lining we have seen (and Rapodo's will no doubt be of the best), this complex livery should look jaw-droppingly good.

 

Built in 1874 as one of the first six, The were apparently all out-shopped in Goods Green and initially all allocated to Brighton.  

 

There is a physical difference in relation to the first six, which I assume MR/Rapido have picked up on, in the sharp angle to the top of the bunker rear, as opposed to the curve used for the others.

 

IEG was applied to No.97 and 20 odd classmates in 1880, when upgraded to as a temporary expedient to deal with increased suburban traffic from London Bridge and Victoria. MR's model should, then, feature Westinghouse brake cylinders.  With the advent of the D tanks in 1881-2, the need for the E1s to work passenger trains, for which, I think it's fair to say, they were not well suited, fell away.

 

Returned to goods work, the dates at which they were returned to Goods Green would be worth knowing.  RCTS says that in many cases IEG was retained until the next visit to Brighton, but that New Cross repainted some well in advance of this.   

 

No.127 Poitiers in Goods Green.

 

This will be a first, I think? An RTR loco in Stroudley Goods Green.  What a treat! I really look forward to seeing how this green, with its subtle lining comes out.

 

Built in 1878.  By the mid-1890s she was at Horsham, as was No.97, and they shared local shunting and goods duties, and worked up to Guildford with a daily goods.

 

 

No.B96, Marsh Umber

 

Ex-Salzberg, built in 1883.  Note the spelling. She was a Three Bridges loco at Grouping. The picture in MR shows her March 1927 condition, with Marsh boiler, safety valve and chimney, still in Marsh Umber and with the later LBSC lettering, i.e. without the ampersand.  She was converted to E1R the following October.

 

As MR 249 does not include a picture of No.97. I include one:

[dibber25]

The announced locomotives include:

 

No.97 Honfleur, in IEG. 

 

I hope it's better than Dapol's O Gauge yellow.  I hope Dapol's OO Gauge IEG is, for that matter.  IMHO, Dapol's yellow is outside the credible range of interpretation of IEG, and there does seem to be a range.  I am encouraged, then, by MR's use of "golden ochre" to describe IEG. With the quality of RTR lining we have seen (and Rapodo's will no doubt be of the best), this complex livery should look jaw-droppingly good.

 

Built in 1874 as one of the first six, The were apparently all out-shopped in Goods Green and initially all allocated to Brighton.  

 

There is a physical difference in relation to the first six, which I assume MR/Rapido have picked up on, in the sharp angle to the top of the bunker rear, as opposed to the curve used for the others.

 

IEG was applied to No.97 and 20 odd classmates in 1880, when upgraded to as a temporary expedient to deal with increased suburban traffic from London Bridge and Victoria. MR's model should, then, feature Westinghouse brake cylinders.  With the advent of the D tanks in 1881-2, the need for the E1s to work passenger trains, for which, I think it's fair to say, they were not well suited, fell away.

 

Returned to goods work, the dates at which they were returned to Goods Green would be worth knowing.  RCTS says that in many cases IEG was retained until the next visit to Brighton, but that New Cross repainted some well in advance of this.   

 

No.127 Poitiers in Goods Green.

 

This will be a first, I think? An RTR loco in Stroudley Goods Green.  What a treat! I really look forward to seeing how this green, with its subtle lining comes out.

 

Built in 1878.  By the mid-1890s she was at Horsham, as was No.97, and they shared local shunting and goods duties, and worked up to Guildford with a daily goods.

 

 

No.B96, Marsh Umber

 

Ex-Salzberg, built in 1883.  Note the spelling. She was a Three Bridges loco at Grouping. The picture in MR shows her March 1927 condition, with Marsh boiler, safety valve and chimney, still in Marsh Umber and with the later LBSC lettering, i.e. without the ampersand.  She was converted to E1R the following October.

 

As MR 249 does not include a picture of No.97. I include one:

 

The research will be entirely down to Model Rail and we have a very good researcher. At the moment the 16XX has priority (1638 was scanned last week) but the numbers and liveries for the E1 have all been chosen based on photographic evidence and the models will (as far as is possible) be in the condition depicted in the photos. (CJL)

[Nearholmer]

Burgundy (relevant name that!),

 

I mentioned the possibility of Horner's Syndrome, because, from what I can discover, it can be associated with underlying health problems, including some that might affect a person's behaviour/character, and it made me wonder if he was suffering from something that made him an irascible old devil.

 

The various obituaries say all sorts of very complimentary things about him, as would be expected, but, in nice language, they also say that he was taciturn in his later years, and suffered several years of ill health that confined him to home in the lead-up to his death. They also say that his retirement presentation was subscribed to by 'a few friends', hinting that he didn't have many.

 

Basically, I accept the various hints that he was a difficult and unkind person, and am seeking an explanation.

 

Kevin

[Mighty]

Really pleased to see this LBSCR tank locomotive being announced and it will be a welcome addition for my planned future layout.  I was interested to see the pre-war post grouping option was 'SR Black pre-war' - I'm guessing this means that the E1s would have carried the unlined goods black with Maunsell lettering, not the fully lined olive green?  That's what it looks like from the first photo on the SEMG webpage, but I'd be grateful if someone in the know could confirm!

[Nearholmer]

Pretty sure only the IoW ones were green, the rest being black. The 'pre-war' probably denotes the serif face lettering (Roman?) as opposed to Sunshine lettering. Until, I think, the early 1930s, some SR goods locos were black, lined green, but the lining might not have applied to all classes, and it never seems to be visible in photos.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Nearholmer