Article 15 Of The Offensive Weapons Bill

[JimC]

Because none of the current laws/legislation are enforced by the Police/ Courts.

 

Oh they enforce it all right. I was recently juror on a case were a professional seaman, arrested for something completely unconnected, was charged with carrying a knife because in the bottom of his bag, behind a zip and utterly irrelevant to the real charges, he had his seaman's knife. 

[Baby Deltic]

Welcome to 1984. Orwell was right.....(and Huxley)

[Baby Deltic]

They're going to ban all swans with Moreton brake gear apparently. Something like that I heard....

[JimC]

... was charged with carrying a knife because in the bottom of his bag, behind a zip and utterly irrelevant to the real charges, he had his seaman's knife. 

 

The really stupid thing was that the police, CPS and prosecution made a really big deal and put a lot of effort into getting evidence and putting a case together about this utterly irrelevant knife, but they made a complete horlicks of gathering evidence and putting a case together for the actual serious charges. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

The really stupid thing was that the police, CPS and prosecution made a really big deal and put a lot of effort into getting evidence and putting a case together about this utterly irrelevant knife, but they made a complete horlicks of gathering evidence and putting a case together for the actual serious charges. 

What a solicitor I once knew called a "furthermore" charge.

 

The basis was that we thing he did 'X' and 'Y' but we aren't sure if we can prove it. We stopped him on the way home and noticed that the offside rear brakelight on his car wasn't working so we will do him for that just so we can keep his name on the records.

[phil-b259]

There is also a section in this act covering corrosive chemicals. Could this have any effect on modellers? Substances that come to mind are flux ( phosphoric acid), and two part etching primers, the thinner of which contains an acid.

First thought is possibly not, but there is often little common sense in the application of these acts.

 

Which is perhaps why folk need to be careful about going off on one about this bill per say.

 

There have been some pretty horrific acid attacks over the past 12 months and as I understand it there is are significant omissions in law around the sale and carrying of corrosive chemicals.

 

The problem we face in society is how to address the 'dual use' nature of many items. Please remember that the perpetrators of the Westminster Bridge terror attack went and hired the van they used - turning a perfectly ordinary object into a lethal weapon. Equally there are pictures of Police stopping teenagers carrying about bread knives and suchlike as weapons - yet no doubt plenty of folk end up purchasing them for no other reason than they need to cut some bread.

 

It might well be the case that the existing law is not enforced - or more likely the existing laws are not quite prescriptive enough that Officers feel confident in invoking them when out and about - but that is something that needs specialist knowledge.

 

What cannot be denied is that the UK, even in surprisingly affluent and wealthy bits - not just inner London has a problem with knife crime, and increasingly acid attacks. We owe it to socity as a whole to try our best to tackle the scourge - and while I'm firmly of the belief there is no single magic legislative fix, that does not mean some change is not necessary.

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Night Train]

Most knife crime uses the cheap cooks knife liberated from the parents kitchen drawer. Any 18 year old can easily buy one from pound world. But a 50 year old modeler cant have a single edged razor blade posted home seems somewhat unreasonable to me.

[Torper]

Quite. From what I've read of article 15, they're not proposing outlawing modelling knives / chemicals etc, just attempting by law to stop their postage to 'anonymous' residential addresses.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "anonymous" residential addresses.  The Act does not say anything about anonymous - just that "The seller commits an offence if, for the purposes of supplying the bladed product to the buyer, the seller delivers the bladed product, or arranges for its delivery, to residential premises".  It is also made clear, however, that while this section applies to deliveries to premises used solely for residential purposes, it does not apply to premises where a person carries on a business.

 

DT

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[ejstubbs]

The existence of a law which is routinely ignored does not mean that no-one will ever be prosecuted under it.

 

For those who are interested, the progress of the bill and its various versions as it makes its way through the parliamentary process can be found here.

 

"Repeal" is not the correct word in this case, since the bill is not yet law and has a fair few steps to pass through before it can be enacted.  What is required is an amendment, to remove or change the problematic article.

[brianusa]

Predictable reactions associated with any rules associated with government overreach and associated with the usual tabloid articles associated with the more horrific reporting from such trash print.  'Associated', the word for today; usually associated with article that my or may not have any association with our trains or associated hobby!

 

Brian.

[duncan]

re acid attacks, I understand most of the acid used came from car batteries, need to ban the open tyope which you can maintain in favour of the expensive sealed ones 

[JimC]

... from car batteries, need to ban the open tyope which you can maintain in favour of the expensive sealed ones 

Scarcely rocket science to drill a few holes in the side of a sealed battery and tip the acid out.

[jjb1970]

The more stuff the government tries to ban the more ingenuity people will show in getting round the bans. Prohibition tends to just become a business opportunity for some. In the case of knives and blades it is so easy to get a sharp edge that a ban is pointless. In a company I worked for a Filipino motorman sharpened a long screw driver to stab a second engineer. Interestingly he did that in preference to Any number of knives he could have used.

[Reorte]

The more stuff the government tries to ban the more ingenuity people will show in getting round the bans. Prohibition tends to just become a business opportunity for some. In the case of knives and blades it is so easy to get a sharp edge that a ban is pointless. In a company I worked for a Filipino motorman sharpened a long screw driver to stab a second engineer. Interestingly he did that in preference to Any number of knives he could have used.

It doesn't take a genius to improvise a weapon. Chucking a lump of rock at someone or whacking them over the head with a branch can be fatal easily enough. So any attempt at tackling weapons use has to be directed at the people and not the means, otherwise it's just a pointless "we're doing something!" exercise that inconveniences a lot of innocent people (although you'll still probably get someone trotting out the tired old "but if it saves one life!..."

[chris p bacon]

re acid attacks, I understand most of the acid used came from car batteries, need to ban the open tyope which you can maintain in favour of the expensive sealed ones 

 

 

I don't think it was battery acid, I thought it was drain cleaner which is hydrochloric acid and easily available. My thoughts with that are that it should only be available from places such as merchants as I've seen householders use it on cloths to clean sinks which it isn't meant for. 

[PaulCheffus]

I don't think it was battery acid, I thought it was drain cleaner which is hydrochloric acid and easily available. My thoughts with that are that it should only be available from places such as merchants as I've seen householders use it on cloths to clean sinks which it isn't meant for. 

 

Hi

 

I tried to buy some caustic soda from Wilkos recently to be told they've stopped selling it due to the acid attacks. Boyes on the other hand are still quite happy to sell me it. Just so there is no doubt I use it for cleaning our drains.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[meil]

It doesn't take a genius to improvise a weapon. Chucking a lump of rock at someone or whacking them over the head with a branch can be fatal easily enough. So any attempt at tackling weapons use has to be directed at the people and not the means, otherwise it's just a pointless "we're doing something!" exercise that inconveniences a lot of innocent people (although you'll still probably get someone trotting out the tired old "but if it saves one life!..."

It has always been the case when public regulatory bodies are found to have been derelict in their enforcing duties their cry has always been "we need more powers". The classic example is the "Control of pollution Act - 1974". There is nothing in that act that was not already available in other acts or common law but the Environment Agency had been found out so to save loosing face you got the 1974 act.

 

The present matter is just the same - failure to do their job properly impacts on innocent modellers.

Edited July 9, 2018 by meil

[Fat Controller]

I don't think it was battery acid, I thought it was drain cleaner which is hydrochloric acid and easily available. My thoughts with that are that it should only be available from places such as merchants as I've seen householders use it on cloths to clean sinks which it isn't meant for. 

The  accessible, refillable, form of battery is virtually extinct. HCL is available as variously  drain unblocker, descaler, swimming-pool Ph adjuster- I get some of the latter from Auchan in Coquelles every so often to remove the grungier bits of scale around the U-bends.

[Kickstart]

The  accessible, refillable, form of battery is virtually extinct. HCL is available as variously  drain unblocker, descaler, swimming-pool Ph adjuster- I get some of the latter from Auchan in Coquelles every so often to remove the grungier bits of scale around the U-bends.

Lead aside batteries supplied with separate acid bottles are still commonly used on motorcycles. Down side of buying a pre filled battery is knowing how long it has already been sat degrading, or whether maintained at all in storage

 

All the best

 

Katy

[96701]

I've sent the following email to my MP:

 

I am a little concerned regarding the wording of Article 16 of the above act. Most people seem to be focusing on Article 15, however I do agree with the sentiment and the wording. Can I suggest that hobbies be brought into Clause 4 of Article 16? I am a railway modeller and often need to use non-sterilised scalpels. These are not available from 'bricks and mortar' shops, so our community of modellers is reliant on mail order.

 

Currently, Article 16 clause 4 states:

 

(4) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove that they reasonably believed that the buyer bought the bladed product for use for relevant sporting purposes or for the purposes of historical re-enactment.

 

Whilst this is obviously aimed at large blades, I really would appreciate it if modellers could be included in Clause 4.

[jjb1970]

Hi

 

I tried to buy some caustic soda from Wilkos recently to be told they've stopped selling it due to the acid attacks. Boyes on the other hand are still quite happy to sell me it. Just so there is no doubt I use it for cleaning our drains.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

Wot, so they've responded to acid attacks by banning alkaline liquids?  

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Reorte]

Wot, so they've responded to acid attacks by banning alkaline liquids?  

Not sure I can get worked up over that, with both I'm neutral on the subject.