Article 15 Of The Offensive Weapons Bill

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

What happens in the case of buying a 'Blunt' knife, and the sharpening it your self ?? Or is that 'Wit' to sharp. !!

 

manna 

[LBRJ]

I had not seen this attempt at legislation so thanks for bringing it to my attention

But  I was thinking the other day about apparently rampant knife crime and I picked up a new cheap chain saw from Screwfix...….

 

I had just got a tool that would keep half a dozen knife wilding maniac's at bay all day, and I  could legally carry it near me almost anywhere!!

 

That is not a criticism of the tool at all, I use them a lot -  but its about the closest thing to carnage on the streets you can legally buy!

[rockershovel]

There does seem to be a lot of this sort of thing lately. Not so long ago, it was the taking of photos of women (and possibly even Scots, for all I know) without consent, which was covered by existing legislation, but was rarely prosecuted. The will to act is the key element; at one time, most men possessed open razors, but a robust policy against carrying them in public controlled their less desirable uses. Later on, it was Stanley knives, which were similarly falling into disrepute.

 

At one point, it was dangerous dogs. You might think that identifying a dangerous dog wouldn’t be too much of a challenge, but that doesn’t seem to be the outcome.

 

I don’t really understand the case about the “seaman’s knife”. What was his name, Jack Aubrey? Seamen haven’t carried knives in their personal effects for many years, and every vessel I’ve been on in recent years has strict policies against doing any such thing. Divers have them, but they transport them in shipping containers with the rest of their underwater equipment.

 

Then again, I don’t really understand the enthusiasm for chain saws. I have mature trees forming the bottom boundary of my garden, and open fireplaces in every room, and I’ve never felt the urge to own one. Nasty dangerous things.

Edited July 10, 2018 by rockershovel

[Oldddudders]

Chainsaws are great things. I will be wielding one later this morning in the ongoing battle with rampant hazel. Sounds like a nice girl? Not when she grows at such a rate!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Chainsaws are great things. I will be wielding one later this morning in the ongoing battle with rampant hazel. Sounds like a nice girl? Not when she grows at such a rate!

Trust that you will be wearing all the right PPE. I'm with Rockershovel on the subject of chainsaws.

[PaulCheffus]

Wot, so they've responded to acid attacks by banning alkaline liquids?  

Hi

 

However it can cause skin burns and blindness should you get it in your eyes.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Oldddudders]

Trust that you will be wearing all the right PPE. I'm with Rockershovel on the subject of chainsaws.

 

Having used them for rather more than 30 years, I think I know the risks. 

[rockershovel]

Hi

 

However it can cause skin burns and blindness should you get it in your eyes.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

“Acid attacks” appears to be a generic press term for any sort of attack involving a corrosive liquid

[rockershovel]

Having used them for rather more than 30 years, I think I know the risks.

 

I actually own one, an ancient 24” McCulloch petrol saw which gets an annual outing to cut logs for my sons Nov 5th barbecue and Xmas open fires. Doesn’t mean I think that they should be sold in garden centres, though.

[Torper]

Garden centres? I remember that several years ago I went into Lidls to get some olive oil and came out with a chainsaw - we did need to cut down and log a smallish tree in the garden. The chainsaw, of which I was terrified, duly obliged, but expired soon afterwards.

 

DT

[BernardTPM]

I remember that several years ago I went into Lidls to get some olive oil and came out with a chainsaw - we did need to cut down and log a smallish tree in the garden. The chainsaw, of which I was terrified, duly obliged, but expired soon afterwards.

Good for Lidl jobs then.

[96701]

 

I've sent the following email to my MP:

 

I am a little concerned regarding the wording of Article 16 of the above act. Most people seem to be focusing on Article 15, however I do agree with the sentiment and the wording. Can I suggest that hobbies be brought into Clause 4 of Article 16? I am a railway modeller and often need to use non-sterilised scalpels. These are not available from 'bricks and mortar' shops, so our community of modellers is reliant on mail order.

 

Currently, Article 16 clause 4 states:

 

(4) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 15 to prove that they reasonably believed that the buyer bought the bladed product for use for relevant sporting purposes or for the purposes of historical re-enactment.

 

Whilst this is obviously aimed at large blades, I really would appreciate it if modellers could be included in Clause 4.

 

I have received this reply from my MP's caseworker:

 

Dear Mr Bancroft

 

Thank you for your email to Jesse Norman with regard to article 16 of the Offensive and Dangerous Weapons Bill.

 

Jesse has been contacted previously about the ‘unintended consequences’ of sections 12 – 18 of the Bill, particularly in relation to craft knives, and is awaiting a response from the Minister.  Once this is received, a copy will be sent to you for your information.

 

Kind regards

 

I'll keep you posted.

[K14]

Got a response from signing the petition. The last part is of interest:—
 

You can find out more about the Public Bill Committee and how to have your say here:
https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2018/june/have-your-say-on-the-offensive-weapons-bill/
The sooner you send in your submission, the more time the Committee will have to look at it.

The Committee is expected to meet between Tuesday 17 July and Thursday 13 September 2018. It can't look at any new information after 13 September.

Thanks,

The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

The link gives a contact e-mail address and a link to download the 16-page guidance PDF. Reading the latter is recommended as it lays down certain rules for formatting.

 

Pete.

[LBRJ]

Having used them for rather more than 30 years, I think I know the risks. 

 

Snap!

I have done Landscaping works since  I was in my teens.  I have a rough idea what I am doing with the things

Though if it is anything huge my mate is a proper tree surgeon.

[royaloak]

 We owe it to socity as a whole to try our best to tackle the scourge - and while I'm firmly of the belief there is no single magic legislative fix, that does not mean some change is not necessary.

Maybe if they used the laws available to them now it would make a fair bit of difference!

[jjb1970]

Hi

 

However it can cause skin burns and blindness should you get it in your eyes.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Indeed, but it's not acid. We used caustic soda for boiler water treatment and also for exhaust gas cleaning and it is nasty stuff.

[Torper]

We used caustic soda (sodium hydroxide), to make soap.  A solution of sodium hydroxide and water (lye) mixed with fats causes a chemical reaction (saponification) which ends up as soap.  Provided you work out and weigh the amounts properly, the sodium hydroxide is used up in the saponification process and none will remain in the finished soap.  All real "soap" is made with sodium hydroxide - if it isn't, it's classed as a detergent.

 

DT

[PatB]

Personally I'm a lot more wary of caustic soda than I am of, say, hydrochloric acid, at least in the concentrations it comes in for pool maintenance and brick cleaning.

[Black Marlin]

There does seem to be a lot of this sort of thing lately. Not so long ago, it was the taking of photos of women (and possibly even Scots, for all I know) without consent, which was covered by existing legislation, but was rarely prosecuted.

 

There actually was a key difference in the proposed new legislation, which was to do with intent. The reason why the existing legislation was so rarely prosecuted was that the CPS had to prove malicious intent - a very difficult proposition. The new legislation seeks to rectify that by killing the 'it was just a bit of banter' defence, among others.

[Black Marlin]

Apologies if this seems a bit political, but the ramifications of this bill will likely adversely affect every modeler in the country.

 

Briefly, the government mistakenly thinks it can reduce knife crime by making it illegal to deliver "bladed articles" to a residential address. So far there have been no exemptions mentioned. This is likely to mean no more deliveries of craft knives, scalpels, chisels, scissors and possibly side cutters.

Can't those of us who work in places other than our homes simply get around this by getting things delivered to our offices?

 

Otherwise, I agree that this is a very poorly thought-out piece of legislation, requiring some common-sense amendment.

[MarkC]

Orwell was pretty far-sighted, wasn't he?  - but the biggest laugh is those who voluntarily have their webcams not secure, or use this device called "Alexa", which is monitoring your every word...

 

Me, I refuse to make it easy for the data trawlers/miners, by using all tools available. It won't stop them, but they have to work damn hard

[jjb1970]

Orwell was pretty far-sighted, wasn't he?  - but the biggest laugh is those who voluntarily have their webcams not secure, or use this device called "Alexa", which is monitoring your every word...

 

Me, I refuse to make it easy for the data trawlers/miners, by using all tools available. It won't stop them, but they have to work damn hard

I guess the difference between ever increasing state surveillance and power and social media giants, Google, Amazon etc is that ultimately you can opt out of one (albeit perhaps at the cost of some inconvenience) but state power is all pervasive and inescapable.

[ejstubbs]

I have today received a copy of the Government's response to the petition.  Stripped of the "something must be done, this is something therefore it must be done" BS, I found this:

 

Following concerns expressed in the consultation, certain defences were introduced into the Bill that has been published. The prohibition on the delivery of knives to residential addresses is now limited to those knives that can cause serious injury. If ordered online these knives will need to be collected from a place where age verification can take place, either by the purchaser or their representative. 

 

In respect of other bladed items and knives, the Bill provides a number of defences around the prohibition of delivery to a residential address. For example, deliveries to business premises, including where a business is run from home, would not be affected by the prohibition placed in the Bill on delivery to a residential address. Other items that would be exempt from the prohibition on delivery to a residential address would include encased razor blades; knives with a blade of less than 3 inches; knives that cannot cause serious injury, for example table knives; bladed products designed or manufactured to specifications from the buyer such as bespoke knives. There are also exemptions for bladed products that are used for sporting purposes, such as fencing swords and bladed products that would be used for re-enactment activities.

 

Some things that jumped at out me from this are:

• ...If ordered online these knives will need to be collected from a place where age verification can take place, either by the purchaser or their representative.

So that suggests that click-and-collect type purchases might be OK, but rules out Amazon and Amazon Marketplace - unless they partner up with a bricks and mortar retail network eg one of the supermarkets (but how likely is that, just to be able to sell knives?)  Any small retailer trying to run a standalone UK-wide web shop would be stuffed - and an example comes immediately to mind: I like Global kitchen knives and I have in the past bought ex-display knives at discounted prices from a small retailer on Amazon Marketplace.  They wont be able to sell these through Amazon Marketplace if the bill goes through as it currently stands.  Maybe they'll move to eBay (which does offer collection from Argos stores).  Or maybe the market for ex-display kitchen sharpware will simply evaporate, and they'll all just get melted down as scrap and I'll have to pay full price in future

• ...deliveries to business premises, including where a business is run from home, would not be affected by the prohibition placed in the Bill on delivery to a residential address

How are "business premises, including where a business is run from home" defined?  Would it be sufficient for me to put "Bodgitt Enterprises" as the first line of my home address and it'll be fine!?

• Other items that would be exempt from the prohibition on delivery to a residential address would include ... knives with a blade of less than 3 inches

It looks as though the "knives with a blade of less than three inches" criterion is trying to mirror Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.  However, the length criterion in the CJA applies to folding pocket knives - longer than 3 inches and it's illegal.  Carrying any knife with a fixed blade is illegal under the CJA.  I'm not sure whether the current draft of the bill makes that distinction - if not then it would still be legal to buy a knife that would be illegal to carry.  (Whatever happened to joined up thinking?)

 

I don't actually recall seeing the length criterion listed in the draft of the bill that I looked at when the petition first came out, and I don't have time to check the various versions right now.  I do wonder whether it has been tacked on in a hamfisted attempt to address some of the issues raised during the consultation.

 

On the positive side, this criterion would at least make your Swann Morton blades legal to sell online to a residential address.  Whatever you were planning to do with them...

 

A significant difference between the CJA and the draft bill is that the CJA allows a "good reason or lawful authority" defence.  Such a defence is not available to retailers in the draft bill.  You can understand why - how is a retailer supposed to know, or trust any answer you give them, about what you're intending to do with your purchase? - but it does mean that the new law would end up being notably more oppressive by removing any kind of reasonableness defence.

 

I wonder whether a way out of this might be allow deliveries to residential addresses provided that the carrier only hands over the package on receipt of a signature by the named addressee as verified by presentation of photographic proof of their identity - a bit like when picking up a signed for or special delivery package from your local Royal Mail delivery office, in fact, but on your doorstep.  Such a control could still be circumvented by someone sufficiently determined - but as others have already pointed out on this thread, there are already plenty of ways that the current prohibitions can be be got around which don't involve lying about your age online, or to the postie at your door should it come to that.

[rockershovel]

I recently obtained a number plate for my trailer. This is quite a complex business in person, requiring various documents to be produced. However I was able to order it online, simply by ticking a couple of boxes on a form, from a retailer in RoI. The plate arrived a couple of days later (interestingly enough, it is also devoid of the “EU” symbol at one end of the plate, which grieves me not at all).

 

I’m sure that anyone wishing to obtain such an item, will do so easily.

 

Historically, our primary defence against this sort of thing, was that the police could take the witness stand, state that the accused had (in their view) no legitimate reason for carrying an implement of that sort, and have every expectation of obtaining a conviction. That no longer appears to be the case.

Edited July 19, 2018 by rockershovel

[PatB]

I recently obtained a number plate for my trailer. This is quite a complex business in person, requiring various documents to be produced. However I was able to order it online, simply by ticking a couple of boxes on a form, from a retailer in RoI. The plate arrived a couple of days later (interestingly enough, it is also devoid of the “EU” symbol at one end of the plate, which grieves me not at all).

 

I’m sure that anyone wishing to obtain such an item, will do so easily.

 

Historically, our primary defence against this sort of thing, was that the police could take the witness stand, state that the accused had (in their view) no legitimate reason for carrying an implement of that sort, and have every expectation of obtaining a conviction. That no longer appears to be the case.

 

Number plates are an odd one. Even 25-30 years ago, getting  plate made required quite a bit of detail to be provided, but you could, quite legally, buy the reflective yellow and white blanks and an assortment of suitable stick-on letters  with no questions whatsoever.