G-Train Locomotive Works - LNER B3 'Valour'

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

I think the only locos that probably had black tops to their splashes were the GC locos with long straight splashers, ie the B2s and B3s, possibly D10s and D11s when in green

 

Andrew

 

I have also seen examples of ex GNR 4-4-0 types with very clear black splasher tops (Locomotives Illustrated No 126 P4 and others - they also have a continuous splasher), Atlantics Fig 7, 8 and others in RCTS Part 3A along with some B12s (Fig 102 & 105 in RCTS Part 2B). The B12s and C1s have individual splashers.

 

Malcolm Crawley used to tell me that they should all be green and I used to enjoy trawling through photos trying to get "one over" on him. He had a much bigger collection of books and photos than I do and we did find other examples, such as the Gresley A1 (Fig 2 RCTS Part 2A). Clearly many of the same class had green splasher tops, so there was variation even with classes which were probably painted in the same shops!

 

I think there were others that I cannot recall now but I hope that I have come up with enough examples to illustrate the point.

 

I looked in the LNER painting spec, which appears in the RCTC book 1 and it doesn't actually state what colour the splasher tops should be. It gives a colour and lining for "splashers" and one for "footplate". I have often wondered if this variation is down to a lack of clarity in the spec. If people will stand on it to access the boiler etc. for cleaning, is the splasher top classed as part of the footplate? Did it depend on whether the painter or foreman that day in the paint shop decided it was going to be black or green?

 

If anybody can come up with a definitive answer, rather than speculation or guessing (Malcolm and I did that for many hours!) I would love to know.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by t-b-g

[65179]

Tony,

What would the definitive answer be though? The painting specs were a guide. They were observed or they weren't. In an example I've bored people with before, Beyer-Peacock observed the paint spec perfectly for one or more of their J39s and ended up with a beautifully lined loco (1856 at least)  - the only problem being it was an out of date paint spec and the loco should have been painted more simply.  The information that is available on what things should have been only gets us so far - reassurance that the odd coloured splasher on a new GCR B3 in a photo really is claret and not green , but of no use for a later view of the same type when you can see no tonal difference between boiler and splasher (Lord Farringdon?). There's no substitute for a properly dated photo and even that may not provide an answer.

 

Simon

[Headstock]

 

I have a better copy of the photo up thread, it is dated Nottingham Victoria 1925. Personally, I wouldn't conclude anything from a black and white picture about colour and colour is my job, It's a bit of a fools game. Even in better resolution I don't find that the image is definitive one way or the other. It is up to the individual to decide what makes them happy. I have so far only found one photo of a B3 class in colour, it is much later photo than that of Valour. Unfortunately, the splasher top is slightly obscured by smoke, making a one hundred percent observation difficult. I have found one colour photo of a locomotive with black tops to the splashers, however, it is post-war and it looks as if the locomotive has been half cleaned on the vertical surfaces only. Again, possible, but not one hundred percent conclusive. I'm not saying it isn't so, I would have thought it is probable. In conclusion, BW  images can not be trusted as guides to colour and I can't find a colour photo that would prove it is so.

 

Please observe copyright

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Headstock
add space between loco and text

[t-b-g]

3 hours ago, 65179 said:

Tony,

What would the definitive answer be though? The painting specs were a guide. They were observed or they weren't. In an example I've bored people with before, Beyer-Peacock observed the paint spec perfectly for one or more of their J39s and ended up with a beautifully lined loco (1856 at least)  - the only problem being it was an out of date paint spec and the loco should have been painted more simply.  The information that is available on what things should have been only gets us so far - reassurance that the odd coloured splasher on a new GCR B3 in a photo really is claret and not green , but of no use for a later view of the same type when you can see no tonal difference between boiler and splasher (Lord Farringdon?). There's no substitute for a properly dated photo and even that may not provide an answer.

 

Simon

 

When I say a definitive answer, perhaps I should use the phrase , establish a pattern. To say which works painted which classes black or green at what sort of dates. All the A1s I have seen seem to be in early LNER days.

 

Even knowing if there was an official guidance on such things would be a help.

 

Due the lack of splasher top lining on most green ones, it is very difficult to tell green from black on many black and white photos. there a tiny number of B&W photos where you can be 100% certain. So it would just be nice if somewhere there was some information to help modellers know what colour they should paint their splasher tops for the class and period 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

I have a better copy of the photo up thread, it is dated Nottingham Victoria 1925. Personally, I wouldn't conclude anything from a black and white picture about colour and colour is my job, It's a bit of a fools game. Even in better resolution I don't find that the image is definitive one way or the other. It is up to the individual to decide what makes them happy. I have so far only found one photo of a B3 class in colour, it is much later photo than that of Valour. Unfortunately, the splasher top is slightly obscured by smoke, making a one hundred percent observation difficult. I have found one colour photo of a locomotive with black tops to the splashers, however, it is post-war and it looks as if the locomotive has been half cleaned on the vertical surfaces only. Again, possible, but not one hundred percent conclusive. I'm not saying it isn't so, I would have thought it is probable. In conclusion, BW  images can not be trusted as guides to colour and I can't find a colour photo that would prove it is so.

 

Please observe copyright

 

 

I agree. Many black and white photos are very tricky to interpret for colours. The examples I quoted are a few where there is little or no doubt that the splasher tops are black. Even if the splasher top is black, if it is shiny and reflecting the green of the boiler, it can be very misleading.

 

I would challenge anybody to look at the examples I have given and say that they are green.

[richard i]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I have a better copy of the photo up thread, it is dated Nottingham Victoria 1925. Personally, I wouldn't conclude anything from a black and white picture about colour and colour is my job, It's a bit of a fools game. Even in better resolution I don't find that the image is definitive one way or the other. It is up to the individual to decide what makes them happy. I have so far only found one photo of a B3 class in colour, it is much later photo than that of Valour. Unfortunately, the splasher top is slightly obscured by smoke, making a one hundred percent observation difficult. I have found one colour photo of a locomotive with black tops to the splashers, however, it is post-war and it looks as if the locomotive has been half cleaned on the vertical surfaces only. Again, possible, but not one hundred percent conclusive. I'm not saying it isn't so, I would have thought it is probable. In conclusion, BW  images can not be trusted as guides to colour and I can't find a colour photo that would prove it is so.

 

Please observe copyright

 

There are several b3 pictures in colour though I would have to rummage them out to see if a colour can be discerned for the splashier top. 

Richard

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, richard i said:

There are several b3 pictures in colour though I would have to rummage them out to see if a colour can be discerned for the splashier top. 

Richard

 

Good evening Richard,

 

please do, I shall look forwards to anything that you find. I have a couple of colour books somewhere, that I haven't looked at yet. Rummaging is quite time-consuming and I wish to continue making things this evening.

[t-b-g]

On 22/01/2020 at 09:44, gr.king said:

Brassmasters 6-spoke handwheel for waterscoop control serving temporarily in those pictures by the way, although I know it to be about 30% too large in diameter, and too plain in style. I should be getting something better in due course, and not an incorrect 8-spoke cast brass item.....

Axleboxes are obviously still to be acquired or produced, probably the latter.

 

A bit of a follow up to this matter. In Geoff Holt's book volume 2 on building locos, a genuine GA is provided for a GCR tender, clearly showing 8 spokes in the water scoop wheel. Were there 2 different types? 

[65179]

Tony,

 

I could be wrong, but as that GA relates to the tenders for the 8Fs, and every photo (admittedly few) of a GC condition Immingham I've found shows a 6 spoke wheel, I'm inclined to think it's an error.

 

I also flicked through my copies of Johnson and Yeadon and everything from a J11 with a 3250 gallon tender through the early 4-6-0s and on to the large boiler locos all show 6 spoke (or what's left of them) from what I can see.

 

Simon

Edited March 29, 2020 by 65179

[Michael Edge]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

A bit of a follow up to this matter. In Geoff Holt's book volume 2 on building locos, a genuine GA is provided for a GCR tender, clearly showing 8 spokes in the water scoop wheel. Were there 2 different types? 

You can't trust GAs that closely, there are plenty of errors in them and in any case locos were not built from them. Many drawings have mis-quoted or mis-drawn dimensions on them - draughtsmen did make mistakes and some of them might have been very junior ones at the time.

[gr.king]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

A bit of a follow up to this matter. In Geoff Holt's book volume 2 on building locos, a genuine GA is provided for a GCR tender, clearly showing 8 spokes in the water scoop wheel. Were there 2 different types? 

 

Well that's a surprise! I can only say that I agree with Simon, having never seen a photograph of anything but a six-spoke version or the remains of one.

 

Just when it looked as if we might be in line for a 4mm scale test etch of a de-bugged and otherwise improved design for the self-trimming tender, viral fate has played its trump card resulting in suspension of production at the etching firm. Patience is said to be a virtue.......

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

You can't trust GAs that closely, there are plenty of errors in them and in any case locos were not built from them. Many drawings have mis-quoted or mis-drawn dimensions on them - draughtsmen did make mistakes and some of them might have been very junior ones at the time.

 

I agree. GA drawings can be wrong and sometimes things were just not built to the drawings anyway. This particular GA is noted with a small batch of loco numbers, which were the Robinson 11B class. So it is very likely a very early Robinson tender drawing. Maybe even the very first one. It may be that between the drawing being done and the tenders being built, the design was changed.

 

Later drawing and all the photographs I have ever seen show 6 spokes but I did wonder if there might be a small batch of tenders with non standard fittings, that may eluded photographers. Unlikely but possible.

 

It does perhaps explain why the Gibson one has 8 spokes, if that one was done from this drawing.

 

I just thought it was wort mentioning!

 

Also in Johnson's book, Volume2, I have spotted for the first time, in the front of the book (Page vi), a 1939 photo of a B3 in LNER green livery. If anybody wants to look at it and say that the splasher top is green, I give up!

 

 

[t-b-g]

29 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

Well that's a surprise! I can only say that I agree with Simon, having never seen a photograph of anything but a six-spoke version or the remains of one.

 

Just when it looked as if we might be in line for a 4mm scale test etch of a de-bugged and otherwise improved design for the self-trimming tender, viral fate has played its trump card resulting in suspension of production at the etching firm. Patience is said to be a virtue.......

 

It has only been about 6 or 7 years or so since the tender etch was started. You can't rush these things.

 

See the post about the wheel! I have only ever seen a "sixer" but I thought it was an interesting thing to see on a drawing.

[t-b-g]

4 hours ago, 65179 said:

Tony,

 

I could be wrong, but as that GA relates to the tenders for the 8Fs, and every photo (admittedly few) of a GC condition Immingham I've found shows a 6 spoke wheel, I'm inclined to think it's an error.

 

I also flicked through my copies of Johnson and Yeadon and everything from a J11 with a 3250 gallon tender through the early 4-6-0s and on to the large boiler locos all show 6 spoke (or what's left of them) from what I can see.

 

Simon

 

Oops! I looked at the loco numbers on the drawing without my glasses on. Not 11B at all! I think you are quite right to be sceptical about the 8 spoke version.

[gr.king]

50 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

It has only been about 6 or 7 years or so since the tender etch was started. You can't rush these things.

 

No anxiety on that score here. It's not as if I'm short of other things to do, many of which are far overdue for being done.

[Paul welch]

Hi 

 I'm very interested in the B3 locomotive kit and other GCR kits. Are they available and if so where can I get one. 

Regards Paul 

[Nicktoix]

Contact the originator of this thread LNER4479

Nick

[t-b-g]

Just to show that my 4mm Valour has not been entirely forgotten. A bit of progress has been made on the boiler, chimney, dome and smokebox door.

 

The mechanism is a runner with wires to the motor. Pick ups are high up the list of tasks to do.

 

I have altered the motion bracket mounting. I wasn't keen on having a flate plate across the top of the frames where there should be daylight so I have fitted a block of brass to the outside of the frame, another to the bottom of the motion bracket mount and drilled and tapped holes for a 12BA screw and a pin. Two mountings each side stop it twisting. Once all was fixed and lined up, the centre of the plate was cut away.

 

The smokebox door is not fixed yet and I think it may need a bit of thinning down before I am completely happy with the shape. 

 

[Woodcock29]

11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Just to show that my 4mm Valour has not been entirely forgotten.

 

Tony its looking very good. Might get to start on my Lord Faringdon later in the year?

 

What is the source of the chimney? I plan on using a PDK chimney  but will need to get a few more from them.

 

Andrew

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony its looking very good. Might get to start on my Lord Faringdon later in the year?

 

What is the source of the chimney? I plan on using a PDK chimney  but will need to get a few more from them.

 

Andrew

 

Thanks Andrew.

 

I wish I could help you. It is a very nice turning but I have no idea who made it. I had purchased an old Ks B2 many years ago with the idea of using big bits like the boiler/firebox/smokebox in a B3. Then the etches came out and I thought the Ks model would be a good donor for that, as the resin ones hadn't been made yet and I prefer metal anyway. Sadly, they didn't fit as they were designed to sit n top of big chunky thick splashers, not nice etched ones and there was a big gap along the bottom edge. So I made new brass parts. When I stripped the paint off the Ks one, I was very pleased to see that the previous builder hadn't used the Ks chimney, so that was the only bit that now remains from the donor. The Ks dome was the one that was much too tall in the earlier picture. The new one is from the scrap box and again, I have no idea of the source. It is much better but the flare isn't quite right as the radius at the front and back is too big and doesn't leave enough vertical almost straight line showing. 

[Clearwater]

On the subject of pictures, there’s a good shot of a B7 in issue 29 of the GWRJ.

 

Cheers

 

David

[t-b-g]

A bit more progress on my "Valour". The smokebox door had some attention and has been completed and some more front detail added, along with the vacuum ejector pipe. I think this classes as a cruel close up! Those scratch marks on the smokebox were not visible t the naked eye but when I saw the photo, I smoothed them off!

 

 

[LNER4479]

Looking good; some nice front end detail. I find the camera is very cruel when it comes to surface marks. Most disappear under the first spray of primer - you know when you've really gouged something badly.

 

In the same spirit of progress, here is the revised self-trimming tender etch, now on its last iteration before being made available for purchase, all being well.

 

 

[richard i]

The tender looks great. When does the order book open for it? 
richard 

[LNER4479]

A PM should secure 'expression of interest' status, to be followed up on 'first come; first served' basis once supplies are to hand.