G-Train Locomotive Works - LNER B3 'Valour'

[Woodcock29]

Most interesting reading chaps. GC tenders have fascinated me for some time - starting I guess when I built my Valour back in 1992 and renewed when Bachmann brought out the O4 in 2009. If I remember correctly Graeme King and I had quite some dialogue following the release of that model by Bachmann, much of which we wrote up in the GCRS Journal Forward. The tender attached to the preserved O4 is I think a modified original GC tender despite the fact it has the ROD type simple water filler - happy to be proven wrong.

 

In 2008 I had a footplate ride on the D49 at Boness - in fact if I say it correctly I rode on the front plate of the tender! Unfortunately due to my closeness I couldn't easily take any photos of the front nor did I take any when I saw the tender in the yard at Llangollen early in 2017 when it was separated from the loco. I have plenty showing other aspects though.

 

Using the photo above of the front coal plate showing the tender number plate 6032, assuming its the original plate (maybe a big assumption), I have found from Yeadon's Appendix 2 Locomotive Tender Numbering A General Survey & the Great Central Group Allocation (a must for any GC modeller) that tender no. 6032 was coupled to J11 5325 to 2/26, Q4 6075 4/26-1/29, Q4 5058 1/29-1/42, recon 21/4-1/5/42 thence to Eastfield shed 13/5/42, D49 2759 (The Craven) 26/6/42-?/9/47. No later info after that which is interesting as a lot of the tender data goes until the attached loco went for scrap often in the late 50s early 60s in the case of O4s or J11s. D49 The Craven wasn't withdrawn until 13/1/61.

 

So on this basis it would appear to be an original GC 4000 gallon tender built for a J11.

 

Tony the photos from the top of Butler Henderson's self trimming tender are great - thanks. The arrangement of the box structure over the water filler and pick up apparatus is as I believe it was on both self trimming and standard 4000 gallon tenders.

 

Mike I think the clue to the arrangement of the structure is shown in the plan drawing of a standard 4000 gallon tender in E Johnson's Locomotives of the Great Central Railway Vol 2 1912 to British Railways on p157. The positioning of the handle of the forward central lid is offset indicating to me that the lid and box was in fact offset somewhat to the right and not central.

 

Hope this helps.   

 

Andrew

[Daddyman]

Best view I have, with no coal in the way:  

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Daddyman

[gr.king]

Although I share Mike Edge's desire to see really good photographs of the tops of known types of GCR tenders "in the day" rather than as preserved, it seems to be extremely difficult to say the least to find anything satisfactory. I'd love to see the picture "from on high" that TBG has in mind, as all pictures of that sort that I have found have not been very clear or large, AND have been further compromised by the problems that seem to plague all top views of GCR tenders: either the usual blight of coal heaped up all over the place, hiding the scoop covers*, or scoop gear and covers removed in the later period. Nonetheless, I do tend to believe that the scoop linkage covers were offset slightly to one side on the ordinary tenders and not just on Butler-Henderson's preserved self trimmer, going by the evidence that Andrew has mentioned from works drawings (even if they frustrate the student by showing only a half plan view) and based on the seemingly highly reliable drawings of GC locos made by Charles Reddy several decades ago - including a full plan view of the top of an 8K / O4 tender.

 

I accept that it is very small and has barely enough resolution for key features to be discerned, but I suggest that this view, an image reproduced in part only and for study purposes only, for once free of coal overspill, does appear to indicate that inset front corner to the group of covers on this O4's tender:

 

 

* And the obvious dodge available to any modeller is to heap up coal over the same area on his model, so that nobody can tell whether it is right or wrong.

Edited November 8, 2018 by gr.king

[iak]

And your complaining!?

It is just more people are starting to realize that the gcr is the promised land.

Richard

Not complaining matey, more like salivating and wibbling wildly...

[Michael Edge]

Although I share Mike Edge's desire to see really good photographs of the tops of known types of GCR tenders "in the day" rather than as preserved, it seems to be extremely difficult to say the least to find anything satisfactory. I'd love to see the picture "from on high" that TBG has in mind, as all pictures of that sort that I have found have not been very clear or large, AND have been further compromised by the problems that seem to plague all top views of GCR tenders: either the usual blight of coal heaped up all over the place, hiding the scoop covers*, or scoop gear and covers removed in the later period. Nonetheless, I do tend to believe that the scoop linkage covers were offset slightly to one side on the ordinary tenders and not just on Butler-Henderson's preserved self trimmer, going by the evidence that Andrew has mentioned from works drawings (even if they frustrate the student by showing only a half plan view) and based on the seemingly highly reliable drawings of GC locos made by Charles Reddy several decades ago - including a full plan view of the top of an 8K / O4 tender.

 

I accept that it is very small and has barely enough resolution for key features to be discerned, but I suggest that this view, an image reproduced in part only and for study purposes only, for once free of coal overspill, does appear to indicate that inset front corner to the group of covers on this O4's tender:

 

3710 tender detail.jpg

 

* And the obvious dodge available to any modeller is to heap up coal over the same area on his model, so that nobody can tell whether it is right or wrong.

 

Photo might be small but it's good enough evidence for me, I'll have to alter the moulding now. I really don't like to rely on evidence from drawings alone when not confirmed by photographic evidence and a great many preserved locos have been considerably altered, especially where thin rusted platework was involved. Thanks for finding it.

[gr.king]

I wish I could supply better evidence, although I think something can perhaps also be deduced, albeit indirectly, from the rear view of the tender behind a B5 at Gorton works in 1948, reproduced at the bottom of page 76 of Yeadon's Register vol.22. The tender in this case has externally plated coal rails and the scoop transverse linkage covers are still there. A low rear coal division plate is visible on the left of the group of covers, and comparison of the position in which it meets the side coal rails with the positions of the upright supports for those rails suggests that the division plate is level with the rear rather than the front edges of the scoop linkage covers. I wonder whether the plate was put there simply because a larger amount of metal was needed to form a plate in line with the front of the covers.

Edited November 9, 2018 by gr.king

[CF MRC]

Fascinating discussions. With a 2mm Valour now on the cards, does anyone produce etches for the self trimming tender? If they do could someone pm me the contact details and perhaps the artwork could be shrunk. If there weren’t one available, would there be a market to one?

 

Tim

[Michael Edge]

We have some 2mm etches for the standard tender.

[CF MRC]

We have some 2mm etches for the standard tender.

Thanks Mike. Is the under frame and footplate the same width between the two types?

 

Tim

[65179]

Tim,

 

the ST tender was 8' 9" over platform compared with 8' 3" for the standard tender according to the GAs.

 

Simon

[t-b-g]

A bit more progress on the tender, despite rather too many bits of real life getting in the way.

 

Brakes done, waterscoop added, sandboxes and pipes, plus guard irons. I did make a fallplate but have managed to lose it and making another one will be quicker than looking for it.

 

Just the fallplate and lamp irons on the back to do now. Unless I remember something else that I should have done and haven't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by t-b-g

[t-b-g]

Not the best photo as it was taken with the poor camera in this tablet thingy but this is what Valour will look like on the EM stand at Hull show this weekend. A long way from finished but carrying her name with respect and dignity for the anniversary of the armistice.

 

A few bits are held on with various sticky substances, so are not properly attached yet.

 

[Barry O]

Very impressive!  Suppose I should start mine.....

 

Baz

[gr.king]

held on with various sticky substances

I dare not comment.

[Woodcock29]

Tony out of interest are they the old Kings Cross plates you've 'stuck' on Valour? I always thought they were the best as far as the etching goes. My Valour has KX plates on it.

 

Mike I presume the 'ships wheel' water pickup operating wheel is on an etch with other parts?  What chance is there that they could be made available on a small separate etch? Say 4 or 6 to an etch. Brassmasters do an etch with various wheels on it but their version of the ships wheel is too big.

 

Andrew  

[t-b-g]

Tony out of interest are they the old Kings Cross plates you've 'stuck' on Valour? I always thought they were the best as far as the etching goes. My Valour has KX plates on it.

 

Mike I presume the 'ships wheel' water pickup operating wheel is on an etch with other parts?  What chance is there that they could be made available on a small separate etch? Say 4 or 6 to an etch. Brassmasters do an etch with various wheels on it but their version of the ships wheel is too big.

 

Andrew  

 

The plates are from Guilplates. Up close, they are not quite as fine as the Kings Cross ones but at the time I bought them, some time ago, the KX ones were a bit off the radar.

 

The ships wheel is part of the tender etch. It is rather nice. If you want some without the rest of the etch and Mike Edge is not able to oblige, you can get a lost wax cast brass one from Alan Gibson.

[Steamport Southport]

Kings Cross are apparently still available from the GCR Society. Posted in case it might be useful to someone.

 

http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/kingscrossplates.html

 

 

 

Jason

[gr.king]

Too many spokes in the Gibson wheel to fully suit a pedant.....

[t-b-g]

Kings Cross are apparently still available from the GCR Society. Posted in case it might be useful to someone.

 

http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/kingscrossplates.html

 

 

 

Jason

It certainly is useful!

 

Thanks

[Michael Edge]

Thanks Mike. Is the under frame and footplate the same width between the two types?

Tim

The frames àre the same for both types.

The scoop wheel is part of the etch, I don't think we have any others.

[t-b-g]

Too many spokes in the Gibson wheel to fully suit a pedant.....

Never noticed and I always like to think of myself as a pedant.

 

Must try harder.

[Woodcock29]

As Graeme says the cast Gibson ships

wheels have 8 spokes not the 6 of GC.

 

Still most of my ex GC locos have these in the absence of anything else being available.

 

I'm most definitely in the pedant category you only have to ask my mates!

 

Andrew

Edited November 10, 2018 by Woodcock29

[Woodcock29]

'Valour' in my main station today carrying wreaths as in the 1930s. 'Valour' drew into my station just before 11am UK time. I was also thinking of the ceremony at the Great Central War Memorial at the Royal Victoria Hotel in Sheffield today. I visited the memorial in 2013.

 

Lest we forget.

 

Andrew

Edited November 11, 2018 by Woodcock29

[LNER4479]

 

In case you missed it on the 'Grantham' thread, here is the part-built prototype alongside Jonathan Wealleans' recently acquisition (originally built by Mike Edge). Poppy headboard available from Fox transfers.

Edited November 11, 2018 by LNER4479

[CF MRC]

Slightly jumping the gun, but I’ve started my model of Valour, albeit only th tender frames so far. At least I will remember when the model was started.

 

Tim