G-Train Locomotive Works - LNER B3 'Valour'

[65179]

GC engines are a new book to me, so I perhaps need to do some homework. The engine would look really well in GC livery, but presumably it changed to LNER pretty quickly.

Tim

I don't have access to my books at present but I'll see what I can find and PM you in few days.

 

Simon

[LNER4479]

Latest progress: a spot of test running at the weekend

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by LNER4479

[CF MRC]

Through the kind efforts of Nick Easton it looks like we will see a set of 2mm scale etches for the B3. I will be making Valour and am assimilating info at present. I’m minded to make a nominal start on it this Sunday evening: it would be appropriate. The self trimming tender does appear to be a bit of a challenge in the etches department, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world to scratchbuild it. It will look rather nice to see a GC liveried engine on CF.

 

Tim

[t-b-g]

I haven't done much more to the loco but the tender has progressed well. It is a Judith Edge 4,000 gallon standard tender as fitted when new to the locos.

 

I really should change the axleboxes to the Iracier pattern, which will happen when I find the etches I got from Guilplates several years ago!

 

Until then, the castings from Alan Gibson have been used instead of the resin ones that came with the kit.

 

I have also added a few details and modified the water filler/scoop gear cover at the back as the one in the kit wasn't quite right in shape.

 

Just brakes, lamp brackets and vacuum pipe/heating pipes to go and it will be ready to appear at Hull show at the weekend.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by t-b-g

[Michael Edge]

The tender looks good - have you got any actual photos of the water filler/scoop gear cover at the back? If I see a clear photo I'll alter the moulding.

[t-b-g]

The tender looks good - have you got any actual photos of the water filler/scoop gear cover at the back? If I see a clear photo I'll alter the moulding.

 

Good on you Mike!

 

Some years ago I got involved, with somebody else, in a proposed kit for the B3 that never went anywhere but I did get as far as a test build for the tender etch (self trimming type). I contacted the good people at Barrow Hill and arranged a visit to climb over Butler Henderson to take photos. It was impossible to get far enough away to get the whole part in one shot with my camera but I hope this shows you what you need to know. It is a self trimmer but the fittings were standard with the "normal" 4,000 gallon tender.

 

I don't know if you have any thoughts on amending the etch at all but including a fallplate and that awful fire iron bracket would be good, as would a front floor area which has curves to match the outward curve of the front side sheets. Also, a representation of the handbrake crank for the outside of the frame at the front LHS would be useful.

 

I have also included a shot to show what is under the covers. I don't suggest that needs to be included! It is for interest only as I had often wondered.

 

I have the GA drawings but they show a section along the centre line and the side of the cover that has the "step in" isn't shown.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by t-b-g

[iak]

Is it just me or is there a GCR revival occurring?

Smashing looking tender mind.

[richard i]

Is it just me or is there a GCR revival occurring?

Smashing looking tender mind.

And your complaining!?

It is just more people are starting to realize that the gcr is the promised land.

Richard

[CF MRC]

I wonder if Valor ever ran on paraffin? Probably, only those of a certain age would understand that flippant question and spelling mistook.

 

Tim

PS. I realise it was an oil burner at one time.

[Michael Edge]

Good on you Mike!

 

Some years ago I got involved, with somebody else, in a proposed kit for the B3 that never went anywhere but I did get as far as a test build for the tender etch (self trimming type). I contacted the good people at Barrow Hill and arranged a visit to climb over Butler Henderson to take photos. It was impossible to get far enough away to get the whole part in one shot with my camera but I hope this shows you what you need to know. It is a self trimmer but the fittings were standard with the "normal" 4,000 gallon tender.

 

I don't know if you have any thoughts on amending the etch at all but including a fallplate and that awful fire iron bracket would be good, as would a front floor area which has curves to match the outward curve of the front side sheets. Also, a representation of the handbrake crank for the outside of the frame at the front LHS would be useful.

 

I have also included a shot to show what is under the covers. I don't suggest that needs to be included! It is for interest only as I had often wondered.

 

I have the GA drawings but they show a section along the centre line and the side of the cover that has the "step in" isn't shown.

 

Butler Henderson 04052008 010.jpgButler Henderson 04052008 038.jpgButler Henderson 04052008 009.jpgButler Henderson 04052008 021.jpg

 

I'm aware of what Butler Henderson's tender looks like but apart from being a preserved loco isn't this a self trimming tender? What I would really like to see is a good photo of the inside of a standard tender in service.

[Pebbles]

Doesn't D49 Morayshire have a GCR non self trimming tender.

[gr.king]

Altered I believe.

[gr.king]

And your complaining!?

It is just more people are starting to realize that the gcr is the promised land.

Richard

I can legitimately reply to that incorrectly, by asking whose complaining?

[45609]

Doesn't D49 Morayshire have a GCR non self trimming tender.

 

Don't think so.  It actually has a number of non-GCR original features.  Here are some I noticed in this useful photo

 

 

External evidence suggests it has a self trimming coal space but I've yet to see the inside / front of this tender to confirm.

 

Morgan

[gr.king]

I'm glad you picked up that point.

[45609]

DSCN1680.JPGI haven't done much more to the loco but the tender has progressed well. It is a Judith Edge 4,000 gallon standard tender as fitted when new to the locos.

 

I really should change the axleboxes to the Iracier pattern, which will happen when I find the etches I got from Guilplates several years ago!

 

Until then, the castings from Alan Gibson have been used instead of the resin ones that came with the kit.

 

I have also added a few details and modified the water filler/scoop gear cover at the back as the one in the kit wasn't quite right in shape.

 

Just brakes, lamp brackets and vacuum pipe/heating pipes to go and it will be ready to appear at Hull show at the weekend.

 

DSCN1690.JPGRSCN1696.JPGDSCN1678.JPG

 

That is a lovely tender Tony. I particularly like the attention to detail with the spare lamp holders.  Do you have some sandboxes for the front bulkhead as I know where you can get some cast W/M ones with filler lids?  You might already know.

 

Morgan

[Steamport Southport]

If these drawings which seem to be taken from the weight diagrams are correct then the D49s had self trimming tenders.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/d49-62700-62775-4-4-0-lner-gresley/

 

 

 

Jason

[UpDistant]

Don't think so.  It actually has a number of non-GCR original features.  Here are some I noticed in this useful photo

 

Morayshire tender.png

 

External evidence suggests it has a self trimming coal space but I've yet to see the inside / front of this tender to confirm.

 

Morgan

Try this one - someone has thoughtfully moved the coal to one side.

[45609]

Try this one - someone has thoughtfully moved the coal to one side.

 

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing this picture.  Certainly looks more like a non self trimming tender from this point of view.  I think measurement of some key dimensions would need to be done to confirm the heritage.   The more curvaceous coal side plate support brackets look to be different to "more usual" GCR style.  It is most definitely a bit of a mongrel.  Does the tender number plate "6032" give us anything to go on?

 

Morgan

Edited November 7, 2018 by 45609

[45609]

A bit of Flickr mining found a couple more photos on the Morayshire tender question.

 

https://flic.kr/p/ycXGo3

 

https://flic.kr/p/pyHjim

 

I'll retract my previous self trimming conclusion.  Looks like a heavily modified non self trimming tender.

 

Water pickup gear removed and D shape filler replaced with round

Rear coal plate replaced and positioned further back

LNER GS buffers

Front sandboxes removed

Front platform raised above original height

Front vertical handrails modified from original

 

Apologies if this a digression from the B3 project discussion.

 

Morgan

Edited November 7, 2018 by 45609

[45609]

OK, last one from me for now.  The discussion on Morayshire's tender has also been had here.  Tony (t_b_g) made the suggestion in that thread the tender was originally an ROD version. It could be but the back end of what I believe to be a true ROD tender shows another variation. It doesn't disprove the ROD theory but does confirm the mongrel status of 246's tender.

 

 

Devil in the detail as per usual.

 

Morgan

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Edge]

The tender behind Morayshire is not very relevant, it doesn't have a scoop, just the round filler. It's the pickup dome and scoop gear cover I would like to see and not on a preserved loco.

[micklner]

Lot of info here

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/greatcentralmodels/

 

 

download the PDF 's to view

[t-b-g]

The tender on Morayshire is certainly a bit of an oddity and not one that I can find any record of in GCR/LNER records.

 

My best guess is that it is an ex ROD tender. Only Pollitt tenders and ROD tenders had the simple round filler at the back and as far as I know, no Pollitt tenders were transferred to D49s.

 

What I don't know is where 246 got its tender from. If it was the one fitted to the loco when withdrawn, it is almost certainly an ROD one. If it was picked up from elsewhere in preservation days, it could be a Pollitt but that is a long shot.

 

Either way, it has a few modifications that make it unlike any GCR tender back "in the day".

 

When I first started my interest in the GCR, the drawing I got hold of first was one of a J11 in the old "Constructor". That has a plan view which is split down the middle. One side shows the water scoop gear and the other is for a non water scoop fitted version. I am sure that this drawing has caused confusion for many people and I have seen some models built to that drawing, which results in a rear coal plate that is not continuous across the width.

 

When I investigated further, some 30 years ago, I found an aerial photo taken from the top of a coaling stage of a yard full of locos and there was a good view of the filler as I have built it. I would also add that the Alan Gibson and John Bateman versions are the same. Enquiries there may reveal a source of the information. Sadly, the photo I saw was in the collection of the late Malcolm Crawley and I don't have access to that any more. A similar view has been published in at least a couple of books.

 

I can't say that all GCR tenders were like that but it was enough evidence for me to use that pattern. I know Butler Henderson has a self trimming tender but the boxes at the back are the same as I saw although they might be an inch or two wider on the self trimmer to account for the wider tank.

 

The variations I am aware of are that the self trimming tenders were built with and without scoops. Those without scoops were for the D11s built for Scottish services. They had all the same boxes on the back but no "ships wheel" or scoop below the tank. That way, they could be "retro fitted" if scoops were needed on them later.

 

The "standard" 4000 gallon tender was also built in two versions, with or without a scoop. Those without a scoop had a plain D shaped cover for the filler at the back. There were other variations in footplate and front side sheets, which varied to match the loco they were attached to, as was the height of the front footplate. There were 6 built with Iracier axleboxes (but these were changed and swapped about later) and these were attached to the B3s when new. They swapped them with self trimming water scoop fitted tenders from "English" D11s when they transferred to the GN section and then they got swapped around much more later.

 

There is a full list of which B3 had which tender when in the instructions for the David Andrews 7mm kit but it is probably naughty to scan that!

 

Further progress on the tender today has seen the sandboxes made and fitted, the brakes fitted, having made some flat cross stays from brass sheet, a fallplate made and the guard irons fitted. Just vac pipes and lamp irons to go!

[65179]

If Morayshire's tender is really 6032 (and I've no idea how big an if that is) then notwithstanding the D9 number it started as a GC 4000 gallon tender behind J11 5325 (LNER no.), it then went to a couple of Q4s in turn before being reconditioned in April-May 1942 and then put behind D49 2759.  That's as far as the GC tender allocations Yeadon goes in terms of info, other than to say that reconditioning involved removal of water pick up apparatus on the tenders for D49s and that 6032 started off with coalrails and so had no beading on the coalguards when the coalrails were plated on the outside. Clearly if Morayshire's tender is 6032 then a lot has been changed!

 

Getting back to B3s, Valour seems only ever to have had tenders from B3s or D11s (1165/6165 to 9/23, 5501 9/23-4/27, 6169 4/27-5/33, 5511 5/33-5/45 and 5508 to withdrawal)  source: Yeadon.

 

Simon