Hornby dublo

[MikeCW]

Inspired by the work of Garry, Ray and others, I decided to have a shot at a Dublo "Neverwazza".  The donor was a nicely running N2 with a body which was well past the point of cost-effective restoration. A few comments which might be of interest:

 

1. I used a locally (well, Australian) made paint stripper and, though it wasn't up to the violent effectiveness of the lethal stuff which we could get 20 years ago, it did the job.  I've got some drain cleaner (pretty well straight caustic soda) ready for the next effort, of which more anon.

 

2. Part of the reason for "starting small" was that I wanted to test how far I needed to go in cleaning up the body castings beyond what was done at Binns Road 60 years ago.  I did some modest fettling but, on closer examination, I think I'll need to go a bit further next time as my painting sequence shows up the ridges and imperfections on the body casting in a way I don't remember on the originals - but that could be the rose-tinted glasses looking back at childhood.

 

3. The painting sequence was etch primer for non-ferrous metal (spray can); gloss black (spray can); transfers; Humbrol flat varnish (airbrush).  The etch primer gave a very coarse finish and, by the time I'd smoothed it off with wet and dry, most of it was rubbed away.  I don't know whether I'll repeat it next time.  Hornby didn't use a primer as far as I can tell.*  I'm an airbrush man myself and, personally, found the spray can paint delivery too heavy for effective control - but that's down to my lack of practice with rattle cans given the fine results others achieve. The gloss black showed significant "orange peel" and I was going to strip it all off and start again but decided to first test the final appearance by brushing a small square of Humbrol flat finish on the inside of the body.  The orange peel largely disappeared under the varnish so I pressed on.

 

4. The transfers were PC Pressfix which I've had in stock for approaching 40 years.  My preference is Methfix but this was a low-cost test run so I made do with what I had.  They stuck well, though I seem to have lost the top of a "6" from the number.

 

5. Humbrol gloss red on the buffer beams, varnished with Humbrol flat; a touch of brass paint on the safety valves; reinstallation of the now polished and oiled handrails and split pins, and job done.

 

6.  Among some items on route to NZ from Dennis Williams (the Dublo Surgeon) is the Hornby Dublo transfer for the bunker rear.

 

7. The sharp eyed will notice that the spring wire on the front coupling is yet to be replaced.  A previous owner had soldered a too-heavy replacement wire in place and I have yet to sort out a spring wire of the right tension.

 

This wasn't as easy as I had anticipated. I've painted a lot of model locomotives over the years, both my own kit builds and (modified) offerings from the trade. I'm more the artist than the engineer perhaps, but all my "scale" locomotives are weathered, and individualised. Painting a locomotive in the style in which it would have emerged from the Hornby factory required a different mindset, and a dodgy application of transfers or lining (none on this model of course) can't be hidden under a layer of in-service grime.

 

Also, I'm not convinced about the dead-flat finish.  I prefer a faint sheen - say mid-way between satin and flat -especially for the larger passenger locomotives.

 

Re the box. I decided that the unboxed Dublo items I am renovating deserve a proper home so I've made a number of boxes, "in the style of" Hornby Dublo, rather than straight copies.  They aren't the easiest things to make, but give a certain satisfaction.  It's also quite an experience going down to the local craft supply store and mingling with the "arty" women who are getting their craft and scrapbooking supplies! 

 

Two other locomotives are now on the Crewe "belt".  First, a Coronation Paific - a renovated "City of London" body on a horseshoe magnet "Atholl" chassis - the components I had on hand.  It will be finished in BR maroon with the shortlived orange/black/orange lining before the reversion to the LMS lining style for red pacifics. The only transfers that Dennis Williams stocks for a locomotive which carried this colour scheme are for "City of Liverpool", but for good reason these are not readily available; so history will be re-written and another locomotive, which didn't appear in this scheme, will carry it in model form.  The first coat of BR maroon has been airbrushed on the body casting.

 

The next will be a 2-6-4T in BR lined green as per the preserved example finished in this scheme (which it never carried in service). I recall that Garry did one of these?   The body is ready for the paint stripper this evening.

 

This could become addictive!

 

Mike 

 

* I assume that  base colour of Hornby Dublo cast locomotive bodies was sprayed and then baked?

Edited September 12, 2018 by MikeCW

[Golden Fleece 30]

Inspired by the work of Garry, Ray and others, I decided to have a shot at a Dublo "Neverwazza".  The donor was a nicely running N2 with a body which was well past the point of cost-effective restoration. A few comments which might be of interest:

 

1. I used a locally (well, Australian) made paint stripper and, though it wasn't up to the violent effectiveness of the lethal stuff which we could get 20 years ago, it did the job.  I've got some drain cleaner (pretty well straight caustic soda) ready for the next effort, of which more anon.

 

2. Part of the reason for "starting small" was that I wanted to test how far I needed to go in cleaning up the body castings beyond what was done at Binns Road 60 years ago.  I did some modest fettling but, on closer examination, I think I'll need to go a bit further next time as my painting sequence shows up the ridges and imperfections on the body casting in a way I don't remember on the originals - but that could be the rose-tinted glasses looking back at childhood.

 

3. The painting sequence was etch primer for non-ferrous metal (spray can); gloss black (spray can); transfers; Humbrol flat varnish (airbrush).  The etch primer gave a very coarse finish and, by the time I'd smoothed it off with wet and dry, most of it was rubbed away.  I don't know whether I'll repeat it next time.  Hornby didn't use a primer as far as I can tell.*  I'm an airbrush man myself and, personally, found the spray can paint delivery too heavy for effective control - but that's down to my lack of practice with rattle cans given the fine results others achieve. The gloss black showed significant "orange peel" and I was going to strip it all off and start again but decided to first test the final appearance by brushing a small square of Humbrol flat finish on the inside of the body.  The orange peel largely disappeared under the varnish so I pressed on.

 

4. The transfers were PC Pressfix which I've had in stock for approaching 40 years.  My preference is Methfix but this was a low-cost test run so I made do with what I had.  They stuck well, though I seem to have lost the top of a "6" from the number.

 

5. Humbrol gloss red on the buffer beams, varnished with Humbrol flat; a touch of brass paint on the safety valves; reinstallation of the now polished and oiled handrails and split pins, and job done.

 

6.  Among some items on route to NZ from Dennis Williams (the Dublo Surgeon) is the Hornby Dublo transfer for the bunker rear.

 

7. The sharp eyed will notice that the spring wire on the front coupling is yet to be replaced.  A previous owner had soldered a too-heavy replacement wire in place and I have yet to sort out a spring wire of the right tension.

 

This wasn't as easy as I had anticipated. I've painted a lot of model locomotives over the years, both my own kit builds and (modified) offerings from the trade. I'm more the artist than the engineer perhaps, but all my "scale" locomotives are weathered, and individualised. Painting a locomotive in the style in which it would have emerged from the Hornby factory required a different mindset, and a dodgy application of transfers or lining (none on this model of course) can't be hidden under a layer of in-service grime.

 

Also, I'm not convinced about the dead-flat finish.  I prefer a faint sheen - say mid-way between satin and flat -especially for the larger passenger locomotives.

 

Re the box. I decided that the unboxed Dublo items I am renovating deserve a proper home so I've made a number of boxes, "in the style of" Hornby Dublo, rather than straight copies.  They aren't the easiest things to make, but give a certain satisfaction.  It's also quite an experience going down to the local craft supply store and mingle with the "arty" women who are getting their craft and scrapbooking supplies! 

 

Two other locomotives are now on the Crewe "belt".  First, a Coronation Paific - a renovated "City of London" body on a horseshoe magnet "Atholl" chassis - the components I had on hand.  It will be finished in BR maroon with the shortlived orange/black/orange lining before the reversion to the LMS lining style for red pacifics. The only transfers that Dennis Williams stocks for a locomotive which carried this colour scheme are for "City of Liverpool", but for good reason these are not readily available; so history will be re-written and another locomotive, which didn't appear in this scheme, will carry it in model form.  The first coat of BR maroon has been airbrushed on the body casting.

 

The next will be a 2-6-4T in BR lined green as per the preserved example finished in this scheme (which it never carried in service). I recall that Garry did one of these?   The body is ready for the paint stripper this evening.

 

This could become addictive!

 

Mike 

 

* I assume that  base colour of Hornby Dublo cast locomotive bodies was sprayed and then baked?

That is a nice job Mike, well done.

 

Please note

1 - as you say Dublo never used a primer and I personally never use etched primers even on brass and some of these are still as they were painted 30 years ago. My only primer is a car aerosol.  I am the opposite to you, I have never been able to master an airbrush but always do what you are happy and confident with.

2- I also prefer Methfix but these are getting harder to find (harder still for TT), even Dennis told me he was probably having to source waterslide ones when the others run out. I am not keen on Pressfix transfers but was told, and worked for me, is if they are dry and do not adhere well is that you can place them on a surface and use Meths to fix them.

3 - As you are using an airbrush can you mix satin and matt etc to alter the finish to your needs?  I have no idea as I use cans of Railmatch Satin, as does Ray.

4 - The casting imperfections are a nuisance.  Like you I never really noticed them on originals until the bodies were stripped then it was filing etc to remove.

 

Your boxes look good too. I used similar ones but used a white paint pen to put the lines on as I went for the later lined look.

 

Here is the BR green 2-6-4 as preserved on the NYMR.  All these tanks used Methsfix transfers from Dennis Williams.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

Hi Mike,thanks.I don`t use etch primer,just auto acrylic grey primer(or white or red oxide depending on the final colour).I don`t know what`s available in NZ.The Green of the SR tank is Molotow future green aerosol with a small pot of the same colour for painting the wheels etc.Transfers are Fox transfers.The black parts of the body are Humbrol no 85 acrylic black,first time i`ve used that on a repaint & i am pleased with the finish.The loco after transfers were applied was then sprayed with Railmatch Aerosol satin varnish,don`t use acrylic laquer as it attacks the transfers,buffer heads are Humbrol polished steel polished with a cotton bud.One tip i will pass on is ,when refitting the handrails,place a strip of masking tape along the body so that the handrail doesn`t scratch the body,guess how i found that out!!.The paints obviously are all UK based but i hope that similar products are available in your country.

 

 

                             Cheers,Ray.

Edited September 11, 2018 by sagaguy

[Golden Fleece 30]

One tip I forgot to mention Mike after reading Rays post, DO NOT use acrylic if you have used an enamel earlier on the model.  It reacts with the enamel solvents and is like paint stripper and as in Rays words "guess how I know".  Some people say after a few days it is okay but I personally would never use it afterwards, these roofs had enamel base coat brushed on years ago yet when an acrylic black spray was used to neaten them up the peeling started.  

 

The first time I did find out the problem was doing a Dublo A4 (with acrylic varnish by accident as at the time I never realised the caps are different on the tins, clear for acrylic and opaque for enamel)) and had to strip a lined green body and start again.  That was doing it a couple of days between enamel and acrylic.

 

Either start with acrylic and don't use anything else, or start with acrylic then enamel.

 

Garry

[Nearholmer]

I would strongly support the thought that it’s best to stick to one ‘system’ of paint for all layers, either acrylic or enamel, and in the latter case it’s safest to stick with one manufacturer for all layers, to avoid incompatibilities. I’ve not painted HD bodies, but have done a lot of other things by hand and can, and a tiny bit of airbrushing.

 

If you can find it, a good alternative to Halfords primers for acrylics is Holts Dupliclour (UK spec) grey or red primer. It is less prone to go on ‘dry and dusty’, and gives an incredibly fine finish. The only downside is that it has a very slightly higher ‘build’ that Halfords, so might need extra care on super-fine detail, but HD doesn’t have that anyway.

[sagaguy]

Nothing like experience,at least you don`t do it again.I sprayed a test piece of plastic with the colours for the tank loco,applied a spare "Southern" trasfer to it & tested it with Acrylic laquer & it destroyed the transfer so i use enamel varnish all the time.

 

                          Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I would strongly support the thought that it’s best to stick to one ‘system’ of paint for all layers, either acrylic or enamel, and in the latter case it’s safest to stick with one manufacturer for all layers, to avoid incompatibilities. I’ve not painted HD bodies, but have done a lot of other things by hand and can, and a tiny bit of airbrushing.

 

If you can find it, a good alternative to Halfords primers for acrylics is Holts Dupliclour (UK spec) grey or red primer. It is less prone to go on ‘dry and dusty’, and gives an incredibly fine finish. The only downside is that it has a very slightly higher ‘build’ that Halfords, so might need extra care on super-fine detail, but HD doesn’t have that anyway.

Unfortunately it is not always possible to stick with one type.  Most of my railway colours are car ones which are acrylic but I always have to brush on the black (unless it is all black then Hycote satin black is my choice) and once the Humbrol black is on you can forget acrylic varnish, PLUS, as Ray mentions it can affect some transfers.  

 

Regarding staying with one manufacturer, sounds good in theory but, that is a no no for me as I do not like Railmatch colours (roof shades are okay) but not body side colours as theirs are always a dull finish and I do not want to varnish first before putting transfers on. Their varnish is fine as Humbrol is very poor, either the cans do not work from new or half way through can stop or worse flood out like Niagra falls. 

 

I like Hycote spray cans but never had success like Ray has with Halfords so I keep away from those myself.

 

These are my own choices but we all have our own successful methods and choices.

 

Long gone are the days when there only was one way and it all worked without issues. As Mike has mentioned even paint stripper is not like it used to be. Nitromors was excellent but then H and S said it needing "improving" to take away some nastiness and that left us with something that did not strip a Dublo model anymore. Even modern brake fluids are not the same but I never had success with that either preferring Modelstrip for plastics until I started with Caustic Soda.

 

Garry

[Nearholmer]

Understood. I did say 'safest' ..... if you are trying to get an exact or near-exact colour match sometimes it has to be 'safe', rather than 'safest'.

 

As a PS, the other spray can paint that I've found to be good is 'plastikote', which is really intended for DIY/craft jobs, so needs a bit of care because the spray atomisation isn't superfine. Their matt black (actually slight sheen) has a fine finish and is very tenacious, so I use it as my 'utility' black for things like under-frames, wheel-sets, W-irons, brake-gear etc, which (the way I play trains, especially in the garden) can get knocked. I think it would work well for HD black. I've painted a couple of steel 16mm/ft diesel loco using their system and it worked very well.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Understood. I did say 'safest' ..... if you are trying to get an exact or near-exact colour match sometimes it has to be 'safe', rather than 'safest'.

 

As a PS, the other spray can paint that I've found to be good is 'plastikote', which is really intended for DIY/craft jobs, so needs a bit of care because the spray atomisation isn't superfine. Their matt black (actually slight sheen) has a fine finish and is very tenacious, so I use it as my 'utility' black for things like under-frames, wheel-sets, W-irons, brake-gear etc, which (the way I play trains, especially in the garden) can get knocked. I think it would work well for HD black. I've painted a couple of steel 16mm/ft diesel loco using their system and it worked very well.

In the past when I was doing live steam I used Plasikote (B and Q, Wilko's etc) which I liked (the spray was different lol) but before using on small models did rad on the HRCA forum when I was a member there were some issues with it, which I think required the painted casting to be put in an oven on low settings to remove some solvent etc before other work was done.  Ray might be able to look this up as he is still a member.

 

Plasticote B-B-Q black was great for live steam smokeboxes as being heat resistant it never lifted, chipped or started to peel.

 

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

I will look later.When i was painting Meccano strips with Humbrol green paint,to stop them sticking together,i baked them on a very low oven for about 20 minites.I seem to recall that Plastikote degeneratated into a sticky mess.

 

Ray

[NCB]

There's acrylic and acrylic. For my 3mm scale GWR locomotives I used to use Railmatch GWR green cans to cover the body, then hand paint the black bits using Testors Polyscale Steam Engine Black acrylic. Excellent stuff. No problems. I'd then go over the green with a hand painted coat or two of the Railmatch GWR green; I reckoned this gave a nicer finish than just the spray cans.

 

Unfortunately Testors have discontinued their FloQuil and Polyscale paints, a great pity.

[MikeCW]

Thanks to all for the encouragement and informative responses. A few comments, in no particular order, about a number of matters raised over the last couple of pages:

 

As NCB said - there are acrylics and acrylics. My other hobby is the restoration of vintage motorcycles, from an era when painting meant "enamelling", dipped or brushed and often baked. My understanding is that, for most of last century, enamel paint consisted of pigment mixed with oils and driers (turpentine, linseed oil etc.) which dried partly from evaporation of the "carriers" but also from changing chemical composition when exposed to the air, a hardening or setting process which could be accelerated by baking.  Though more and sophisticated chemicals were increasingly added over time, the basic idea remained the same.  In the late 20s, when Dupont came up with lacquer for automobile spray painting, the concept was quite different.  The pigment was carried in volatile, toxic, cellulose-based carriers, and the drying of the paint was principally caused by rapid evaporation of these carriers,  Two completely different systems whose chemicals wouldn't mix.

 

But then along came "acrylics" (and emulsions).  Initially these were almost an equivalent to an enamel paint, but with water-soluble chemicals replacing the oil/turpentine carriers. (Think Humbrol enamel and Humbrol acrylic.) So far so good, but now we have "acrylic lacquer" and "acrylic enamel" in spray cans, and my knowledge of their characteristics is minimal.

 

Because I know what works for me, I'll try to keep to enamels as long as they are available, or at the least to paints which have compatible thinners, turpentine principally, which I use successfully in lieu of the expensive Humbrol thinners. If I must use "acrylic lacquer" (whatever that is) I will use it only as a base coat and let it dry thoroughly, sometimes accelerating the drying on a low temperature in the oven, (notwithstanding pointed remarks about the chemical smells) before applying decals or enamels.  

 

Floquil paint was mentioned. I used this US product, through an airbrush, for many years.  It had a very finely ground pigment which made for a beautiful finish; but its thinner was xylene, rather than a turpentine based product. Xylene can melt plastic, doesn't mix well with turpentine, and healthwise is very nasty stuff.  Floquil, other than their acrylic line, seems to have all but disappeared.

 

My recent experience of Humbrol enamel has been mixed. What bugs me is the variability of the product these days. Some paint is very thin, other paint is "gloopy"; and these are from high turnover outlets.  I bought tinlets of brass and copper two days ago, (about 3 Pounds equivalent a tinlet over here) for touching up the trim on "Bristol Castle" whose restoration has featured above.  I was disappointed at how coarsely ground were the metallic flakes.  Despite endless mixing, the over-large flakes can impart a "sparkly" effect to the chimney and safety valve cover in certain lights.

 

Varnishes.  My preference is good quality polyurethane satin, filtered through my wife's cast-off nylon tights, thinned with turps, and shot through my top-feed Badger "Patriot" airbrush. It sets rock hard and protects the paint finish; but some recent cans have been a little too glossy for my taste. As Garry suggested, I would like to let it down slightly by mixing in some straight matte varnish, but can't get "Matte" from my local hardware store anymore - only Gloss and Satin.  So I will experiment with the Humbrol clear finishes, though they are not as hard as polyurethane.

 

BR locomotive green is problematic, at least in trying to match the Dublo green for touch-up jobs.  I have a nearly untouched tinlet of Humbrol HR104 (I think that's the number), BR Loco Green, which is a long-discontinued colour.  It is close to the green used on the Castles and West Countries, but very slightly more "olive".  A drop of the current Humbrol No 3 brings it very close indeed, but what I'll do when this is exhausted I don't know.

 

A matter from way back in the thread.  Dublo motors.  I found the Meccano Magazine article reprinted in Michael Foster's book, showing the winding of armatures in the Liverpool factory, so vertical armatures were definitely made in-house, and probably the later open-frame motors too.

 

Finally, on the local equivalent of Ebay I've just bought a Duchess of Montrose body and tender mounted on a reportedly nicely running Wrenn 2-rail "City" chassis, plus four unboxed superdetail maroon coaches.  I have a "City" body in the spares box so this is another project. (I said this could get addictive.)  Two of the coaches have printed destination "boards" poorly stuck on the coach eaves.  Does anyone have any experience of getting these stickers off without damaging the paintwork, or should I say litho printing, on the coach sides?

 

Mike   

Edited September 12, 2018 by MikeCW

[sagaguy]

Re coach boards,Isopropyl alcohol on a cotton bud will remove any glue residue,the tin printing is pretty tough.Having had a look round at NZ model shops on the net,you don`t appear to have a lot of choice for paint.If you have an automotive paint supplier,you may be able to get some paint mixed up.Dublo montrose green is Vauxhall pine green paint codes: 49L, 322, 6GB It`s all computer based so you may be able to get this paint.This is my City Of Liverpool in pine green transfered with Fox transfers & finished with Enamel satin varnish,not Acrylic as it attacks the transfers.

 

                            

 

This is my Barnstaple,a tatty original which i got pretty cheaply refinished as Crediton using pine green & enamel satin varnish.

 

                           

 

Let us know how you get on with some pics if possible.

 

                              Ray.

 

 

[MikeCW]

Re coach boards,Isopropyl alcohol on a cotton bud will remove any glue residue,the tin printing is pretty tough.Having had a look round at NZ model shops on the net,you don`t appear to have a lot of choice for paint.If you have an automotive paint supplier,you may be able to get some paint mixed up.Dublo montrose green is Vauxhall pine green paint codes: 49L, 322, 6GB It`s all computer based so you may be able to get this paint.This is my City Of Liverpool in pine green transfered with Fox transfers & finished with Enamel satin varnish,not Acrylic as it attacks the transfers.

 

                       

                              Ray.

 

Thank you Ray

 

The Duchess and West Country certainly look the part.

 

The NZ model shop paint selection is pretty good, but biased towards US railroad modelling, wargaming and plastic kit construction (Floquil, Vallejo, Tamiya etc). Precision (if they are still in business), Railmatch and paints which are designed for UK railway modellers, are less common, though Humbrol is readily available, sometimes in a large hardware/home improvement chain.

 

I'll check out the automotive paint suppliers.  There are plenty around and I'll see what they can do - though I might be limited to automotive acrylic, and the cost of a 500 ml tin or spray can might be eyewatering.

 

I'm a slow worker and a novice at this branch of railway modelling (restoration and adaptation of vintage Dublo), rather than so-called "finescale" 00, but I'm happy to post a photo or two of progress in due course.

 

Mike

[sagaguy]

Acrylic is fine,just don`t use it on locos that have been transferred,it will attack them,use enamel varnishes.The 2-6-4 tank was painted with acrylics,Molotow future geen aerosol paint ,available in NZ for the green & Humbrol acrylic for the smokebox & buffer beams all finished with enamel varnish.The 500ml aerosol of Ford Sahara Beige for platforms etc cost in the UK about £16,about 32 NZ dollar to give you a comparison.

 

               Ray.

Edited September 12, 2018 by sagaguy

[Golden Fleece 30]

You now come into the matter of what our own eyes see colour wise as Ray prefers Pine green yet to me it looks wrong so I always use Brooklands Green. Our eyes can see most colours differently to others and going back to colour slide film Kodak Extachrome had a blue tint to me and I always liked Agfa Chrome yet some thought Agfa had a green cast to it and liked Kodak.  It is the same with paint.  There is also the matter of slight variations in manufacture.  I prefer Hycote and when our local shop changed to another brand it was nothing like the Hycote range so I have to travel further afield or get it on line.

 

There were supposed to be subtle differences in the shades too which is why some paint mixers ask for the chassis number etc before they will mix a shade others do a basic referenced colour like Halfords although not around here anymore. Unlike Ray and some others I don't like Halfords paint anyway but at the time they were the only one to mix a RAL colour for me.  This why what suits an individual you stick with.

 

Here are some A4's in Brooklands green but don't forget lighting conditions can also affect what you see.

 

Also, do not forget that the finish can alter the loco looks to with gloss giving a deeper richer colour.

 

Garry

Edited September 12, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30

[Il Grifone]

Hi Garry,

 

Those are excellent! But, as a case in point, they all look a slightly differnt shade, presumably an effect of the lighting. The two at the front are original finish?

Dublo green is the nearest reference to the original colour we have IMHO. It always looked right to me at the time, though the colour of the real thing was usually obscured by a layer of muck.

 

Colour film was very variable. I preferred Ektachrome as the most natural to my eyes (Kodachrome seemed 'brighter' somehow - more red?). Agfachrome was OK, but 'not quite right'. Ansachrome was relatively cheap (and appealed to me for that reason) and also it was available in 400 ASA which made it ideal for British weather! On the down side, it was a bit too blue. All needed bright sun outdoors for decent results. Even cheap digital cameras beat any of them today and are easily 'corrected' anyway. I wondered why Sony were wasting time and money with their 'Mavica' camera in the eighties - now I know!

 

David

Edited September 12, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Wolseley]

Colour film was very variable. I preferred Ektachrome as the most natural to my eyes (Kodachrome seemed 'brighter' somehow - more red?). Agfachrome was OK, but 'not quite right'. Ansachrome was relatively cheap (and appealed to me for that reason) and also it was available in 400 ASA which made it ideal for British weather! On the down side it was a bit too blue. All needed bright sun outdoors for decent results. Even cheap digital cameras beat any of them today and are easily 'corrected' anyway. I wondered why Sony were wasting time and money with their 'Mavica' camera in the eighties - now I know!

 

David

 

 

I always found the colours of Kodachrome a bit too intense and changed to Agfa CT18 in the late 1960s - in retrospect a mistake, as Kodachrome held its colour very well, while the Agfa over the years has faded, some more than others, the worst now being more like monochrome than colour.  I don't recall Anscochrome being available here when I was taking photographs in the late 60s/early 70s, but my father used it around 1960 and the colour slides he took using it are now a delicate shade of light blue.

 

I only tried Ektachrome once, fairly early on, and didn't try it again as I didn't like the colour much (from memory I think it might have been a bit more expensive as well, and I didn't have much cash to spend on photography back in my student days)

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Garry,

 

Those are excellent! But, as a case in point, they all look a slightly differnt shade, presumably an effect of the lighting. The two at the front are original finish?

Dublo green is the nearest reference to the original colour we have IMHO. It always looked right to me at the time, though the colour of the real thing was usually obscured by a layer of muck.

 

Colour film was very variable. I preferred Ektachrome as the most natural to my eyes (Kodachrome seemed 'brighter' somehow - more red?). Agfachrome was OK, but 'not quite right'. Ansachrome was relatively cheap (and appealed to me for that reason) and also it was available in 400 ASA which made it ideal for British weather! On the down side it was a bit too blue. All needed bright sun outdoors for decent results. Even cheap digital cameras beat any of them today and are easily 'corrected' anyway. I wondered why Sony were wasting time and money with their 'Mavica' camera in the eighties - now I know!

 

David

Hi David,

 

Yes the bottom two are original and "grubby" and look darker than a newer mint one.  60023 has Satin varnish on and the other 3 are paint without any varnish on showing the actual paint colour although maybe one has gloss varnish on but I cannot remember.  They were taken outside to try to get as much natural light as opposed to flash but now we get another colour problem as over exposure makes things lighter and under exposure is darker. Even one stop from the "normal" can show a subtle difference to some so who is going to say what is correct?  We all know monitors can give a different hue and I am not even going to worry about calibration. To me if it looks okay then I am happy :-)  What a nightmare colour matching is. 

 

Even a Dublo finish would change over time with handling as that would start to give it a shine.

 

When I started at the carriage works in York we still had a lot of BR maroon for coaches in stock so I "acquired" some but as you know it does not scale down and my coaches looked nearly black using the genuine article.  Even the corporate BR blue was too dark on a model.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Monitor adjustment requires a proper calibration source - very expensive obviously. There were some at the BBC when I worked there (early seventies - colour was still a 'black art'), but we normal engineers never got to use them. I think the standard 'white' has changed more than once since! IIRC a professional TV colour monitor was priced at £880* but that included a first selection CRT - all the rejects went to the domestic market! Video tape was £1 a minute, which explains why it was reused and we lost many classic programmes. It was cheaper ito record on 16mm film (in glorious monochrome!), so survivors have grain, speckles, 'tramlines', rough sound and soft pictures. Many programme inserts were recorded on 16mm colour film. It was reckoned to be equivalent to 625 line TV - It wasn't!

 

* A fortune then, enough for three normal TVs or a small car and nearly enough for a house, if you chose your location carefully. Also, being a commercial product, it was exempt from purchase tax.

 

Back on topic, I was going to post some pictures, but the decent camera has a flat battery and I can't find the charger. The other two are playing up and demanding flash, which we all know is a recipe for failure. I'll try again when I find the charger.

 

EDIT for finger trouble

Edited September 12, 2018 by Il Grifone

[sagaguy]

It doesn`t need to be expensive,i use a Spyder colour calibration unit on my monitor coupled with OEM inks & paper,i get what i see on the screen.

 

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/datacolor-spyder-5-express-1571252/?mkwid=syjLjlfR1_dc&pcrid=89741464619&kword=&match=&plid=&product=1571252&gclid=CjwKCAjw8uLcBRACEiwAaL6MSdNlJwLRXT-UGsU9ElqQdxMpPn73plsOU5ROtcay_NppV9IEzik3hRoCItQQAvD_BwE

 

                        Ray.

[Il Grifone]

I don't think SWMBO would call that cheap. 

 

Ours involved colour temperature regulated fluorescent tubes IIRC. Even with professional equipment the settings used to drift, with plenty of heat from valves and studio lighting (5kW a shot) to help with the process.

 

The videotape deprtment was air-conditioned, not for our benefit, but for the welfare of the video tape recorders and the tape itself.

[sagaguy]

I suppose after spending a lot of money on DSLR cameras & lenses which i have whilst running an over 50s camera club & investing in an A3 printer,£99 is not a lot of money to get the colour balance on the print as you see on the monitor.

 

 

After all that gear,what do i use a lot of the time?,my phone !!.

 

Ray

[MikeCW]

You now come into the matter of what our own eyes see colour wise as Ray prefers Pine green yet to me it looks wrong so I always use Brooklands Green. Our eyes can see most colours differently to others and going back to colour slide film Kodak Extachrome had a blue tint to me and I always liked Agfa Chrome yet some thought Agfa had a green cast to it and liked Kodak.  It is the same with paint.  There is also the matter of slight variations in manufacture.  I prefer Hycote and when our local shop changed to another brand it was nothing like the Hycote range so I have to travel further afield or get it on line.

 

There were supposed to be subtle differences in the shades too which is why some paint mixers ask for the chassis number etc before they will mix a shade others do a basic referenced colour like Halfords although not around here anymore. Unlike Ray and some others I don't like Halfords paint anyway but at the time they were the only one to mix a RAL colour for me.  This why what suits an individual you stick with.

 

Here are some A4's in Brooklands green but don't forget lighting conditions can also affect what you see.

 

Also, do not forget that the finish can alter the loco looks to with gloss giving a deeper richer colour.

 

Garry

 

Wow! An innocent question triggers a lot of views, interesting and constructive ones I should emphasise.

 

Where to start?  I suppose I should go back to my original question which, rephrased, boils down to: what paint, currently available ready-mixed or able to be mixed, is the same colour as the BR Green used by Hornby Dublo on their locomotives?  The reason for asking is that, though I could mix up a brew for a particular job (Post 212), repeatability is also important.  My preference is that one of my restored/rebuilt  BR Green Dublo locomotives should look like another BR Green Dublo locomotive. 

 

Ray and Garry have offered a couple of options which I will check out on this side of the world.  There is another option.  The discussion above reminded me that I had been up and down a similar path before.  My "scale" model railway is based on the LMS Western Division in the 1930s.  That required wrestling with one of the most "fugitive" of colours:Midland/ LMS Crimson Lake.

 

First, every model manufacturer and model paint company has their own version, ranging from fire engine red to dull reddish-brown. Second, because red pigment is slightly translucent, the final shade is influenced by the colour of the undercoat.  Third, the degree of gloss on the finish has a pronounced effect on the appearance of the colour. Fourth, the extent and type of lining affects the way we see the base colour.  (Our appreciation of the shade of green on the original Dublo A4s at the front of the photo in Garry's Post No 216 is, in my view, affected as much by the dulling down over time of the original lining, as by changes in the base colour itself.)

 

So, I decided that I would settle on one version of Crimson Lake and stick to it.  I took a tender body, which looked a pretty good shade to my eyes, to a specialist paint supplier and had them run a computer/spectrograph analysis on it and mix a 250ml can of the colour, in satin enamel, for me. Though I don't think that, despite all the scientific razzamatazz, they got the colour exactly replicated, I've used that can for a decade or more.  It may not be the same as the colour applied in the Derby paint shop in 1930, but who can argue? (The shade is very close to a Dublo LMS "Atholl", but slightly lighter.)  As I don't need a spray can for Dublo Green, using an airbrush as I do, I might just do the same with a "Montrose" body. The objective is different here of course, and should be easier to achieve: matching paint to an existing model rather than trying to replicate a colour in service on the real railway 80/90 years ago.

 

Finally, I'm sure that the paint supplied to Binns Road in the early 1950s wouldn't be be exactly the same shade by 1960.  Batches will always differ slightly, as Garry pointed out, despite the best manufacturing controls. A few years ago I read somewhere a discussion about the shade of BR Corporate Blue of the late 60s and 70s. The author, or perhaps a subsequent correspondent, warned against "over-precision".  He recalled a visit to the paint shop of a major UK locomotive works.  When the painters were adjusting their spray-gun nozzles prior to laying the blue top-coat on a locomotive, they would have a trial "squirt" or two on the wall at the end of the paint shop.  As I recall the article, there were as many subtly different shades of blue on the wall as there were trial sprays.

 

Mike 

Edited September 13, 2018 by MikeCW

[sagaguy]

I suppose it`s down to personal choice in the end.The locos in this pic have been refinished,the front loco is Railmatch LMS crimson,the rear model is Rover Damask red,both finished with Railmatch Satin varnish.

 

                     

 

                       Ray.