MikeCW Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 I suppose it`s down to personal choice in the end.The locos in this pic have been refinished,the front loco is Railmatch LMS crimson,the rear model is Rover Damask red,both finished with Railmatch Satin varnish. 20160912_164256 copy.jpg Ray. Fully agree with the first sentence Ray. And the Coronation Pacifics are beautiful models. The bar is getting set pretty high! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCW Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Following on from Post 224, here is a photo of work-in-progress on my Coronation "hot-rod" - Atholl chassis, City body, Duchess tender. The main body colour is the LMS Crimson Lake I had made up years ago, sprayed with a Badger top-feed "Patriot" airbrush. By comparison the cylinders are, as far as I can tell, the original Dublo colour. The black is Humbrol Coal Black, brush painted, and still sticky in parts after 8 hours. That variable Humbrol quality again! The body sits down at the stern slightly as a result of fabicating a body/chassis fixing arrangement for parts which were not designed to go together. But there is no problem shimming it half a millimetre as, anticipating such problems, I've provided room for adjustment. I'll post a picture when she's all finished. Mike PS I've just noticed from the photo that a previous owner, for some reason of their own, has chopped off the front footsteps. Another chore! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 That looks very nice Mike. Regarding the Humbrol Black I used to have issues like yours a few years ago when its manufacture went to China but for the last 2 or 3 years I have not had any problems and led to believe the paint is now made back in the UK. For my BR maroon Duchess/City's I use Peugeot Diablo Red, this is a metallic colour which "loses" the metallic shade when finished with the Satin varnish as you can see in the photo. For an LMS version, which I rarely do, I use the Damask red (I think it was) which is very close to Dublo as you can see with my repaint under an original Atholl. One photo shows how the flash has made this brighter than it is. The photo of 3 locos shows the colour as close to what it is to the naked eye. The front steps may have been broken off if it had been dropped or knocked, or possibly, a previous owner tried to fit larger wheels and they caught on the steps? Garry 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) The steps are a bit undersized anyway. The first Atholls had a more delicate casting, but it was too fragile and redesigned. One of mine (a Montrose but the casting is much the same) has lost hers and appears to have been dropped (by a previous owner I hasten to add!). I was going to fit my City with a Duchess chassis and built an adapter from P.C. board and drilled a hole for the fixing screw in the casting above the front bogie ( I used a 4mm screw instead of the correct 5/32" Whitworth (Meccano) screw. Brute force retapped the body ). Then I acquired a City block (Wrenn, but never mind) so scrapped the bodge and did the job properly. (I kept the Duchess cylinders valvegear but it looks better IMHO.) Then. of course, I needed another Duchess body.... (She now has a proper Meccano screw*. The metal was very forgiving when I retapped it again! (The threads are not very different, just enough to not screw up.) * Get them as Meccano parts, not the exorbitant prices charged on eBay as Dublo spares. There are variations with time (as might be expected from a product that is 120 years old. We really require the brassed, slotted cheesehead variety fron the 50s/60s of course. The thread is always the same (Even for French Meccano), so any will do. Part 111a http://www.nzmeccano.com/111.php Edited September 13, 2018 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCW Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) That looks very nice Mike. Regarding the Humbrol Black I used to have issues like yours a few years ago when its manufacture went to China but for the last 2 or 3 years I have not had any problems and led to believe the paint is now made back in the UK. For my BR maroon Duchess/City's I use Peugeot Diablo Red, this is a metallic colour which "loses" the metallic shade when finished with the Satin varnish as you can see in the photo. For an LMS version, which I rarely do, I use the Damask red (I think it was) which is very close to Dublo as you can see with my repaint under an original Atholl. One photo shows how the flash has made this brighter than it is. The photo of 3 locos shows the colour as close to what it is to the naked eye. The front steps may have been broken off if it had been dropped or knocked, or possibly, a previous owner tried to fit larger wheels and they caught on the steps? Garry Thank you Garry I have a feeling that the Humbrol Coal Black paint may have been from a tinlet well over 5 years old, and therefore possibly from a Chinese batch? ( I have some very old paint in store which is still eminently useable, particularly if well stirred, thinned, strained and airbrushed.) Your comment on the difference between BR and LMS red interested me. Some "experts" assert that BR tried to replicate LMS Crimson Lake, and that the BR colour was therefore basically the same but for differences arising from a more modern chemical formulation, and differences in undercoat and varnishes. I simply don't know, but it looked more red than crimson to me in the colour photos I've seen - but refer to my Post 224 which effectively endorsed your views on colour perception. Were Dublo's BR "Cities" much different in colour from their LMS "Atholls"? They look very similar in your photo of the three Pacifics. It's a long time since I've seen a new, original Dublo "City" so can't compare; but Hornby Dublo seemed to take care to get their basic colours accurate. The footsteps look cleanly sawn off about halfway up the original casting, and I have a plan to reinstate something similar to the originals. I understand that the original footsteps were made significantly undersized as, if they were anything near scale, they would likely clout the solenoid housings of electrically operated 3 rail points. Mike Edited September 13, 2018 by MikeCW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) I'll have to dig out my City to compare*, but from what i remember they were/are the same colour as the Atholls. I have seen the colour of an Atholl criticised as nothing like LMS crimson, but, as the real Duchess of Atholl was black at the time the model appeared and any crimson remaining on other locos was several years (of wartime neglect) old at the time, they were relying on memory.... Lacking the gold embellishments of the original would have changed the apparent colour anyway. Dublo were unlucky with their choice of name. She had received black paint a streamlined tender and blinkers by the release date of the model (presumably as a result of her accident). Really, as depicted, it is only correct for her condition in the early years of the war between fitting of a double chimney and repainting Apparently the trial model Atholl did just that and provoked a speedy redesign. It would have been better to redesign the solenoid housing.... * The Cities are all a bit newer than Atholls (at least seven years), but compared to the ensuing fifty odd years I think it can be ignored, especially if the internal colour is compared. The experts at York use the same colour for all MR/LMS/BR crimson. Perceived differences are therefore due to lining/undercoat/varnish. Edited September 13, 2018 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 omis. Back on topic, I was going to post some pictures, but the decent camera has a flat battery and I can't find the charger. The other two are playing up and demanding flash, which we all know is a recipe for failure. I'll try again when I find the charger. EDIT for finger trouble I found the charger Now where did I put the camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted September 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2018 On the back of your phone perhaps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) The colour of an original Atholl, the middle one in my photo of three, is what Dublo produced and really I think is nothing like the actual Crimson Lake used by the LMS. As you mention Mike, Crimson Lake and BR loco maroon were very close if not the same so Dublo's model is wrong. I only did mine, the top one, to copy Dublo's version. My comment on colour was just in relation to Dublos models. David, to a degree the City's were similar but not the same to the Atholl's at one time with only a slight difference. Over the few years of production though some had what a lot of people, including me, called a "pink" hue which was even more noticeable on the cylinder castings that never matched the body. During the City years some tenders were slightly different as they were moulded plastic as opposed to a stoved finish loco body. None of the Dublo Duchess/City's had the correct shade when you look at what the compound 1000 and Duchess of Hamilton looked like. Colours are a nightmare. Garry Edited September 13, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolseley Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 The experts at York use the same colour for all MR/LMS/BR crimson. Perceived differences are therefore due to lining/undercoat/varnish. Lake is a semi-transparent pigment. The exact colour of crimson (or for that matter, carmine) lake depends a lot on the undercoat used. For example, Caledonian and LNWR stock used practically the same red colour for their final coat but, while the LNWR coaches were undercoated with a 50/50 mix of black and indian red, the Caley coaches were given an undercoat with a much higher quantity of red in the mix, with the result that the final colour of a Caledonian coach was redder and lighter than those of the LNWR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Thanks to some information from David on my TT posts I read that the first Duchess to be painted in BR green was Duchess of Montrose in November 1951 which is probably why Dublo chose that name for their green version. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 It also depends on the undercoat used,on my red locos,I use red oxide primer.For platforms & buildings,i use white,for green locos,grey primer. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Reds change with the light. they fade, and they change with the undercoat. It seems to me most of us look up at full size locos and down on models so maybe low angle shots would be a better way to judge the hue. Also no full size locos were varnished with matt varnish. Even 1990s BR grey shines like silver in sunlight when freshly applied. I know the NRM Crimson locos are quite a light colour but they look a lot darker from ground level than Hamilton does from the viewing gallery or footbridge. There does not seem to be enough "Depth" to any of the #228 photos but while 6227 probably is right the middle darker one looks right to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Just to prove that i don`t only repaint & repair HD locos,here is one of my refinished Trix EM1s. Ray. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 All i need now is a set of Silver Jubilee coaches to go with this loco.If i could find some decent photos of the articulated stock,i`d scan them into Photoshop & produce some overlays to fit tatty HD coaches. Like these,one coach of my HD 2EPB set,no expensive EMU coaches were harmed,these are on tatty Mk1 SD coaches with ends & roofs modified, Which formed part of this, And also one of these Dublo nevawassas.Part of a 3 car set. I must get down to running the layout now. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) On the back of your phone perhaps Thanks but it's a proper camera.... Anyway I've found it (where I'd already looked!). Thanks to some information from David on my TT posts I read that the first Duchess to be painted in BR green was Duchess of Montrose in November 1951 which is probably why Dublo chose that name for their green version. Garry Probably. The switch to BR liveries was presumably planned well before 1953, but the situation in Korea delayed it until then. Sorry for the poor rhoto but it was cobbled together in a hurry. On the left my Dublo City and on the right my first Atholl from 1951. the Atholl is a tad darker, but not much different in my opinion. As to the accuracy of the colour, I wouldn't like to say. I didn't live in an area where the BR colour was ever seen and the LMS colour was before my time anyway. I'll have to sort out their cylinders and valvegear... Edited September 13, 2018 by Il Grifone 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 (edited) Don't ask me why there are large spaces and the image appears three times. It won't let me edit it either. They don't appear in the preview. Edited September 13, 2018 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted September 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 14, 2018 Don't ask me why there are large spaces and the image appears three times. Why are there large spaces and three copies of the image? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) Why are there large spaces and three copies of the image? :) No idea! Mysteries of the IT faith? (Luckily I've retired and no longer have to sort out electronic glitches.) I tried again to sort out the post, but it deleted the lot rather than just the offending parts, so I hit 'cancel' and left well alone. Edited September 14, 2018 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCW Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 . On the left my Dublo City and on the right my first Atholl from 1951. the Atholl is a tad darker, but not much different in my opinion. As to the accuracy of the colour, I wouldn't like to say. I didn't live in an area where the BR colour was ever seen and the LMS colour was before my time anyway. Thank you for posting the photos. While the Atholl is a little darker - and perhaps more purple - it seems to my eye that it's the presence of lining on the City that makes a significant difference to the overall effect of the base colour. Which confirms a lot of the comments in this thread about colour perception generally, and crimson lake in particular. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolseley Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) I bought my Duchess of Atholl cheaply as a playworn non-runner that I was going to use for spares until, after around 15 minutes of fiddling, I got it running again, in fact it's now one of the best runners I have. The paintwork was rather sad - it needed a lot of touching up, particularly the upper part of the parts of the body. I tried some Humbrol LMS maroon. it was too light as it was, but the addition of a few drops of black and it was a near perfect match. The shade of paint used on Atholls does seem a bit dull when compared directly with the paintwork of preserved locomotives but, when you consider that the further away that you are from an object you are viewing, the less bright and intense the colours appear and also that, more often than not, when you are viewing an 00 model locomotive in use on a layout, you are around 200 scale feet from the model, maybe the Dublo colour isn't that far off after all. Edited September 14, 2018 by Wolseley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolseley Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 I just bought three Duchess tenders for $40 (around £22). I was actually just after one to replace a tender I had with a few dents in it but this lot of three was cheaper than any single ones in decent condition on offer at the moment. I guess that means I now need to get two Duchesses without tenders.... Got hold of this one the other day: Hi Wolseley May I make a slight correction to this statement. You need to buy 3 Duchesses as you should repair your existing tender as well. Cannot have too many HD engines going.......... Point taken.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCW Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 (edited) I bought my Duchess of Atholl cheaply as a playworn non-runner that I was going to use for spares until, after around 15 minutes of fiddling, I got it running again, in fact it's now one of the best runners I have. The paintwork was rather sad - it needed a lot of touching up, particularly the upper part of the parts of the body. I tried some Humbrol LMS maroon. it was too light as it was, but the addition of a few drops of black and it was a near perfect match. There is something immensely satisfying in bringing a 60+ year old model back to life; which I've started to appreciate only recently after 50 years of conventional "scale" railway modelling. The Bristol Castle illustrated looks like a well cared for original model. In fact, like your Atholl, it was bought as a very battered, poor runner. The paint was completely missing from the footplate edges, as was all the green and brass paint on tender top,cab window and splasher beading. Random patches were missing from elsewhere over both engine and tender body from ill-use over the years. It is the locomotive featured in Post 145 on. My plan was a complete strip down and repaint but, following on from the philosophy now prevailing among the vintage car and motorcycle fraternity (of which I am a part) that "originality is good if it can be sensibly maintained",* I thought that the model may not be past the point of no return. It had been "weathered" by a previous owner, but isopropyl alcohol cleaned off the grime and dirt of ages. I mixed some Brunswick Green to match (discontinued Humbrol HR 104 (Edit. On squinting again at the round paper label on the top of the tin I suspect that the paint code is 164, not 104.) plus a drop of current Humbrol No 3) and carefully patch painted by brush, using well thinned paint and blending it in by feathering the edges. (As an aside, Dublo paint is rather thick - I assume baked on - and obscures some of the fine detail of their very clever body castings, at least the later detailed castings from the 2-6-4T on.) The black was Humbrol Coal Black. The brass beading was Humbrol Brass paint. Humbrol flat varnish, misted over the repairs with an airbrush, completed the job. It doesn't purport to be factory fresh; just the model that my family coudn't afford for me in 1960, and I'm quietly pleased with her. I've also recently acquired a fourth Montrose, or at least a Montrose locomotive body and tender on a Wrenn City 2-rail chassis. I have another battered City body so will likely repeat the exercise in Post 227, by fitting it to the Wrenn chassis, suitably 3-railed, and perhaps making a BR green City. But I too am short of a Montrose or City tender. The local internet auction site is constantly scanned - which poses risks in itself! Note that a previous owner has sawed off, and slotted, the rear of the Wrenn chassis to fit the Montrose body. I would have been inclined to do it the other way round but, each to his own. Rather than reconstitute the chassis I will probably add a cab floor to the City body to accommodate the slots in the chassis, as I did with the City body on Post 227. So much to do; so little time. Mike * But these are reasonably commonplace toys, not one-off coach-built Bugattis, (or Rembrandt paintings) so I too will strip, convert, modify and alter as the mood takes me! Edited September 16, 2018 by MikeCW 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) Ahh,so you have discovered the subtleties of Wrenn chassis.There are 2 versions,neither of which fit a dublo city body.There is the chassis which you have which won`t fit a dublo body owing to the screw fixing hole in the wrong place & another which has a plastic plate ( difficult to get hold of today) which screws to the rear of the chassis & fits into a slot in the rear of the body floor but again the screw fixing hole is in the wrong place for some Wrenn bodies,i had to make a threaded bush to epoxy to the body & then you have the Dublo body & chassis that will only fit each other. Wrenn chassis with plastic plate attached to the cab end. Fun isn`t it,LOL. Ray. Edited September 15, 2018 by sagaguy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 I got my Dublo EMU chassis back from Scalespeed yesterday morning & a cracking job he made of it,i now have yet another motor car which requires a trailer.I made this trailer from a tatty SD Mk1 coach which i shall use until a trailer becomes available so for about a £120 all in,i now another 2 car EMU. As bought,note the coil missing from the armature. After repair With the mismatched trailer. Now to 3 rail the motor coach! Ray. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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