Tanktainers: capacity, usage and operation questions

The Pilotman · July 26, 2018

Could any of m'learned forum members answer these questions, please?

1) are any 20' tanktainers currently used to carry foodstuffs by train in Britain?

2) have they ever been used thus?

3) could you have 3 fully loaded 20' tanktainers on one “Freightliner” flat wagon (eg. PFA/KFA/FGA etc.) and still run at 75mph (ie. is there any speed restriction above a certain weight)?

Thanks.

Mark Saunders · July 26, 2018

1 yes

2 yes

3 no speed restriction as long as max load not exceeded!

Ethanol in solution is one of the most palatable dangerous good/food stuffs that is transported by rail!

Mark Saunders

Davexoc · July 26, 2018

The tanktainers that are a barrel in a frame I'm not certain, but wine is a possible/probable load.

The boxes that have top hatches carry anything dry in bulk that can be blown into a silo. We receive plastic granules, 27 tonnes at a time, but speaking to the delivery drivers they also carry grain, rice and seeds. These boxes are the ones branded UBC, IFF, Interbulk, Den Hartogh, Bulkhaul, and some are pretty ropey now.

Dave

Glorious NSE · July 26, 2018

Ref question 3 - I think 3 x loaded 20' tanks will overload most 60' flats.

Some sample 60' flat capacities from the Freightliner fleet:

FSA = 60.9t
FTA = 61.4t
FEA-B = 61.6t
FEA-E/S = 60.9t
KFA (TIPH) = 61.7t
FFA/FGA = 62t

Digging through some pics, max gross weight on a 20' tank container seems to be commonly about 34-36t.

So if the container is really loaded to the 36t max weight, any of those flats can only load one at a time.

So the missing link - does anyone know what a loaded 20' tank of Ethanol (for example) weighs, I suspect it'll be under the containers MGW, but by how much?

Fat Controller · July 26, 2018

Various loads I've seen have included bulk Guinness and milk. Tate and Lyle were sending bulk glucose in tanks from Purfleet to Daventry (thence Glasgow). in the past there has been bulk whisky traffic, both from Elgin to Glasgow for blending, and thence to the continent.

I'd agree with the idea that three loaded 20' Tank-tainers would gross out a 60' flat.

Satan's Goldfish · July 27, 2018

I can't recall ever having seen 3x tanks on a single flat but I have kept an eye out for it (cue picture to prove otherwise). I have seen plenty of 2x tanks on outer mounting positions over the bogies and the middle left empty or a conventional dry 20ft container between them.

In fact, I can probably count on 1 hand how many pictures I've seen with tanktainers in the middle position of a 60ft flat due to their weight when loaded, but on more than 1 occasion I've seen them loaded singly in the centre of FLA flats.

Just outside the standard 20ft; these are one of my favorites! http://www.tankcontainermedia.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/TCM-Fosters-500x375.jpg

4.4k · July 27, 2018

I've seen/shot plenty marked up for such use - some examples of labels:

ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-qRPz7B7

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-rxkcqrD (Hazmat 3065 = Alcoholic Beverages)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/Other-lengths/AMT6/i-szw8vvX/A (Hazmat 3065 again)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/Other-lengths/AMT6/i-TfLPPLw/A (Hazmat 3065)

or

FOODSTUFF ONLY/FOOD PRODUCTS ONLY

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-V7W8VsC/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-ddQSm7t (Ethanol)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-xsPM6bf (Hazmat 3065)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-JHnZwVx

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-jwXRn8X/A (Hazmat 3065)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T5/i-dJ5WFRD/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T4/i-zRZNRwP/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/2MT4/i-Tp88cz7/A (Tate & Lyle branding)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/Other-lengths/EMT5-Tank-container/i-4CnFpZs/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-gqwGtxJ

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-LrTCSvc/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-R7Qs9Cd/A

or

Produites Alimentaires

Foodstuff Only

Nur für Lebensmittel

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-xPctqPd/A

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-V5sZDn3

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/22T6/i-9LL6qmL (Hazmat 3065)

https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/The-Humble-Box/TheHumbleBox-Type/20-Containers/2MT4/i-xNMsnxP/A

Ref question 3 - I think 3 x loaded 20' tanks will overload most 60' flats.

Some sample 60' flat capacities from the Freightliner fleet:

FSA = 60.9t

FTA = 61.4t

FEA-B = 61.6t

FEA-E/S = 60.9t

KFA (TIPH) = 61.7t

FFA/FGA = 62t

Digging through some pics, max gross weight on a 20' tank container seems to be commonly about 34-36t.

So if the container is really loaded to the 36t max weight, any of those flats can only load one at a time.

So the missing link - does anyone know what a loaded 20' tank of Ethanol (for example) weighs, I suspect it'll be under the containers MGW, but by how much?

When I worked for a road hauler we used to haul them occasionally and the ones we hauled were with wine for a place in Bristol. As most of the tanktainer go on road at some point they will probably not exceed 25 tonne cargo weight as otherwise the Lorry would be overweight. Tractor unit would be 8.5 tonne, trailer is 5.5, tank tainer 5 tonne(assuming it is insulated) leaves 25t for the cargo. Edited July 27, 2018 by 37114

The Pilotman · July 27, 2018

Thank you all for the excellent selection of informative posts! So, from what I have read here, it seems to be possible for two 20' tanktainers to be loaded up to around 30 tonnes gross each, and conveyed at the maximum permitted speed on a 60' flat wagon with the middle position left empty. That would imply that the tanks are not full. In that case, what stops the liquid inside from “sloshing around” and destabilising the wagon? Are they fitted with baffles of some sort? And can anyone say when, approximately, tanktainers began to be used in the UK? Thanks again.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Western Aviator

Satan's Goldfish · July 27, 2018

Refering to Wikipedia (take with a pinch of salt):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_container

It says the standard 20ft tank has a capacity from 17,500L to 26,000L. Depending on the density of the liquid being carried, 26,000L of water = 26 metric tons. Oils are lighter, other products maybe more dense.

arran · July 27, 2018

http://www.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=238

This one is fairly obvious as to what its to carry.

Regards Arran

Titan · July 27, 2018

Of course the middle position may also be taken by an empty container being returned.

Fat Controller · July 27, 2018

The weight limit for containers on the road is the reason that the Teesside Freightliner terminal was relocated from Stockton to within the boundaries of ICI Wilton. I suspect it's also the reason that containers are tripped from Cadoxton to Wentloog for Dow Chemicals.

I'm pretty certain that tank containers have at least partial-height baffles, as otherwise the sloshing-around of the load would produce some unwelcome riding problems.

Non-ISO tanktainers were developed in the early days of Freightliner- Freightliner themselves had three containers of different designs as demonstrators, built in 1965. As for ISO framed containers,a cursory glance at 'Freightliner- Life and Times' has a dated photo from 1973 in a train formation, but few others.

The Pilotman · July 27, 2018

Various loads I've seen have included bulk Guinness and milk.

Milk? Any idea where that would have been going from/to?

Trog · July 27, 2018

You can also get plastic bags/tanks that fit in a normal box container to allow the carriage of liquid. The bung in one filled with lubricating oil once came out at Wolverton, the resulting leakage apparently having a somewhat detrimental affect on the following trains braking performance. The MOM / Operating Dept Supervisor sent to sort it out apparently got in quite a state climbing into the container to refit the bung.

West Junction · July 27, 2018

The main points have all been covered;

Most units will at some point travel over public roads so have to be road legal for weight.

Container flats GLW will not permit 3 x fully loaded units.

Depending on actual weights, units on a flat can be mixed up to the max GLW provided they comply with the loading pattern for the wagon type.

2 x heavy units in the outer positions, light unit in the middle.

1 x heavy in the middle, 2 x lighter units outside.

Some wagon types do have a reduction in speed when loaded to max GLW. Not relevant to this ( FCA wagons on the Binliners).

Wine tends to be conveyed in 20' boxes, in a large bag. Can be seen on he Bristol workings with the middle position usually empty and warning stickers on the units for Bulk Liquids.

Fat Controller · July 27, 2018

Milk? Any idea where that would have been going from/to?

From various locations in the UK by road to Abbeville (IIRC) then on to somewhere near Bologna by rail.It was for cheese making, when Italian farmers were having trouble getting enough fodder for their herds, due to a prolonged dry spell.

Trog · July 27, 2018

From various locations in the UK by road to Abbeville (IIRC) then on to somewhere near Bologna by rail.It was for cheese making, when Italian farmers were having trouble getting enough fodder for their herds, due to a prolonged dry spell.

Presumably the hot dry spell did not impact adversely on the supply of smelly feet needed for the flavouring of the cheese.

Glorious NSE · July 27, 2018

I can't recall ever having seen 3x tanks on a single flat but I have kept an eye out for it (cue picture to prove otherwise).

I have (might try and search and see if I've got some images later if I get time) - but never with anything to suggest they are loaded.

Some wagon types do have a reduction in speed when loaded to max GLW. Not relevant to this ( FCA wagons on the Binliners).

Worth a note on that subject, when I was looking up weights last night the FCA and derivatives that EWS/DBS uses have a higher capacity, though still a fair way short of a nominal 30t x 3.

The Pilotman · July 27, 2018

From various locations in the UK by road to Abbeville (IIRC) then on to somewhere near Bologna by rail.It was for cheese making, when Italian farmers were having trouble getting enough fodder for their herds, due to a prolonged dry spell.

Thanks for that. I thought for a moment that it might have been something like a latent attempt to get the West Country to London milk traffic back onto the rails.

woodenhead · July 27, 2018

Milk? Any idea where that would have been going from/to?

from a cow

newbryford · July 27, 2018

The tanktainers that are a barrel in a frame I'm not certain, but wine is a possible/probable load.

The boxes that have top hatches carry anything dry in bulk that can be blown into a silo. We receive plastic granules, 27 tonnes at a time, but speaking to the delivery drivers they also carry grain, rice and seeds. These boxes are the ones branded UBC, IFF, Interbulk, Den Hartogh, Bulkhaul, and some are pretty ropey now.

Dave

I worked at a place that (I think as I didn't do the logistics) loaded liquids into what looked ike a conventional box on the outside. It had a big bladder inside - I think they were branded IBC Bulktainer and 30 feet long.

Just found this pic

Cheers,

Mick

Edited July 27, 2018 by newbryford

woodenhead · July 27, 2018

Do you think the person who first had the brainwave to put things into a box that could be carried on a flat wagon ever expected that one day nearly everything would be packed into these metal crates and put onto gigantic ships that then travelled the world.

Jim Martin · July 27, 2018

Refering to Wikipedia (take with a pinch of salt):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_container

It says the standard 20ft tank has a capacity from 17,500L to 26,000L. Depending on the density of the liquid being carried, 26,000L of water = 26 metric tons. Oils are lighter, other products maybe more dense.

Tank containers come in many sizes, but this is a representative sample: https://www.tankcontaineroperators.com/tank-containers/specification/

Ethanol has a density of 789Kg/m³, so even the largest tank listed here - 26000 litres or 26m³ - would cube out at 20.5 tonnes load. Add the tare weight of 4 tonnes and you're at 24.5 tonnes gross.

For context, a 26m³ tank would be an 8-foot diameter cylinder running the entire length of a 20-foot frame. You see plenty of non-cylindrical tanks which I suppose have a bit more capacity than that; but the scope for a much bigger tank is pretty limited.

Jim

Glorious NSE · July 27, 2018

So it looks like I have a grand total of zero wagon shots which show triple tank container loading......but the reason for that seems to be that I was busy shooting the tanks and not the wagons!

Here's the 'middle of three' ones I could find.

CONT_TONU426101-7_22T6_HighburyAndIsling

CONT_GESU802851-8_22T6_UpperHolloway_140

CONT_UTCU486187-2_22T6_UTCU_Millbrook_13

(The Stolt ones were part of a large batch spread over the train, all in very clean condition, presumably freshly cleaned and heading for a new contract.)

Seems reasonable to assume the above three are all empties - the one below is a load though. (Hazmat 1760 - Compounds, Cleaning liquid) - however looking at my shots of the tanks either side, those look likely to be empties, keeping the weight under the limits and balanced.

CONT_TCLU900879-9_22T6_Stratford_050111%

Edited July 27, 2018 by Glorious NSE

The Pilotman · July 27, 2018

from a cow

Other milk-producing mammals are available

Tanktainers: capacity, usage and operation questions

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in