Wentworth Junction

[Michael Edge]

The last three signals for the layout

The one on the left will go on the up side of Strafford crossing, I have no photo of a signal here at any period but we need one for operational reasons. The middle one goes at the end of the loop signalling moves to either the loco siding or the colliery - earlier this was a tubular post with an elevated disc like two of the others but sometime in the 1960s it was replaced with an old wooden post one. The one on right goes at the down side of Strafford crossing and I have lots of photos showing this one, it's a bit too close to the home signal but it marks the link section (as does the first one).

Paint and plant them this week the start working out how to get them operating before York next year.

[Michael Edge]

Signals now painted and planted.

Sigals either side of Strafford crossing, these are placed for operational reasons at the link section breaks, I have no photos at all of the home signal, nor of Strafford crossing box which was just here. The down distant does appear in many photos though, it's far too close to WJ's home signal but someting is needed to mark the section break.

Ground signals putting in an appearance now, these will not be working although the elevated ones will. In the distance past the signal box there is a yellow disc but I'm not sure exactly what this referred to.

More ground signals and the two miniature arms controlling the loop exit, Garratt and S1 are the two returning bankers here, they will reverse by the water tower, movement controlled by the disc seen in the last photo.

Now I've got to get them all working and interlocked with the points and link switches.

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

The down distant does appear in many photos though, it's far too close to WJ's home signal but someting is needed to mark the section break.

The distant looks a bit odd so close to the crossing, where one might expect a stop signal. Given that it's too close to WJ's Down Home, I might be inclined to replace it with a fictitious Down Outer Home (just changing the arm), which would make more sense visually and still act as the section break marker.

[Michael Edge]

It was just a foot crossing in later years, for early fifties it should be a stop signal though. I have hardly any photos of the crossing so I‘ve put what I know was there at one time at least.

[John76]

Mike

 

No19 Yellow disc had me puzzled for some time but it’s quite simple really. The basic principle of a yellow disc is that it can be passed when it is ‘on’ if the route taken is not towards the main line. At Wentworth Junction there were two routes that could be taken from No 19. Firstly straight on towards 14 and 15 signal ( colliery branch and banker siding), and secondly out on to the down main. Based on this I think 19 disc would only be cleared for a train going out onto the main line. 
Hope this makes sense. 

John

[Michael Edge]

That makes sense, I always find yellow discs a bit confusing but it's not going to work anyway. More puzzling is the lack of a ground signal facing the other way here for a move back on to the running line which is a routine move on the layout for adding bankers.

[John76]

Mike

 

I also think i know why there wasn't a ground signal facing the other way. I think its to do with the collision risk, additional interlocking costs, and the position of both 28 and 29 signal.  I tried to write it in a response but gave up. It's probably better if I try and explain next time I see you. 

 

John

[Michael Edge]

Work started on making the signals operate.

WJ up home removed from the layout and set up on a bit of wood, the signals just peg into the baseboard with another hole for the operating wire. The servo controller is the Dingo Simplex board, cheap and simple, it doesn't do fancy stuff like bounce but I can live without that. Set up here with the switch open, signal at danger and a green light on the board.

Switch closed and the arm goes to clear with a red light on the board, setting is done with the push button switch at the left of the LED and the pot at the right.

Underneath the servo is mounted on a short length of aluminium angle with four screws, the brass tube is the bottom of the signal post and the .4mm brass operating wire just goes into one of the holes in the servo arm. The other end of this arm will work a microswitch to set the colour light distant.

All this was very quick and easy (excellent service from Dingo as well), each signal will only need one on/off switch, where there are alternative routes these will be set by the point motors so the correct one comes off for the route set. Home and starter signals will also be wired through the link switches so they will only come off if the links are on - the fiddle yard driver can therefore drive trains according to the signals and if both home and starter are off will be able to drive all the way round.

Far too cold in the shed to contemplate working out there this week so this remains a bench job for now.

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

it doesn't do fancy stuff like bounce but I can live without that

Bouncing signals tend to be overdone, I think.

 

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

signal at danger and a green light on the board.

 

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

the arm goes to clear with a red light on the board

Shouldn't that be the other way round?

[Michael Edge]

Yes but the LEDs won’t be visible - more importantly breaking the circuit returns the signal to danger, the early ones for Carlisle were the other way round (and a real pita).

[Bri.dolan]

A then and now comparison at wentworth junction

Went for a walk up there last Sunday and thought I’d get a now comparison shot 

the then shot is one of my late uncles 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Yes but the LEDs won’t be visible - more importantly breaking the circuit returns the signal to danger, the early ones for Carlisle were the other way round (and a real pita).

Interesting. I wonder why the designer did that - it's rather counter-intuitive.

[Michael Edge]

I did point this out and recent ones are conventional. The early ones were much more difficult to interlock with the points, you can break a circuit in multiple places ( to prevent the signal clearing) but it’s much more complicated to make it multiple places.

[Michael Edge]

8 minutes ago, Bri.dolan said:

A then and now comparison at wentworth junction

Went for a walk up there last Sunday and thought I’d get a now comparison shot 

the then shot is one of my late uncles 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

Do you have date for that photo? The loop signal is still the elevated disc but I have one with two miniature arms. I would like to know when it was changed and why.

[Bri.dolan]

14 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Do you have date for that photo? The loop signal is still the elevated disc but I have one with two miniature arms. I would like to know when it was changed and why.

I don’t unfortunately my uncle very rarely dated owt 

all the pictures he took are from 70’s onwards 

Ive only ever seen pictures of it with a disk I will ask around and see if I can find out when it was changed 

what’s the date of the picture you have with the two miniature arms ?

 Here’s another one of my late uncle’s pictures from the 70’s 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

[Michael Edge]

No date but it's earlier anyway, locos have small yellow panels and probably still green. 

[John76]

Mike 

 

Looking on Flickr, both 5 & 14 signals were elevated discs in March / April 1970. 
 

John

[Bri.dolan]

Just having a thought 

with the workings were changed to be tripped to wath and I think diesel hauled after the 1971 crash 

and my uncle only starting to take photos around early 70’s I’d say the picture is 1971/72 just before the crash 

 

Regards

 

Brian  

[John76]

  Mike

 

Have you seen the chimney on the track cabin?

[Michael Edge]

Yes.....

The photo is definitely before the crash, the two bankers are hauling the train on to the up main, the train engines waiting on the down main. There would also have been a diesel involved to run to and from the pit, wires only went far enough along the branch for the electrics to hook on.

[Bri.dolan]

18 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Yes.....

The photo is definitely before the crash, the two bankers are hauling the train on to the up main, the train engines waiting on the down main. There would also have been a diesel involved to run to and from the pit, wires only went far enough along the branch for the electrics to hook on.

Now I’m not too sure exactly how this worked but by accounts of someone that worked at the pit they didn’t have a loco there and was done with gravity 

picture from Facebook group I run 

 

 

regards 

 

Brian 

[John76]

Mike.

If the procedure was to pull the loaded train out onto the up main then the collision would never have happened. The collision report said it was pulled out onto the down main. That said, this photo does look like the train is heading out onto the up main. I wish @Bri.dolan’s uncle had taken this a few seconds later!! Then we may have known for definite. 

[Michael Edge]

Have a look at the track plan, you can’t get to the down main from the branch, at least not with a signalled move. This was the normal operation, we do it on the model if the pit trip loads to more than 14 wagons or if the Garratt is the banker.

[John76]

Of course. Doh!

[Bri.dolan]

Been in conversation with a friend and he thinks the change in signalling is due to the abolition of strafford crossing signalbox 

the date I’ve got for that is 

Strafford crossing sb shut 

27th feb 1966

 

Regards 

 

Brian